Dark pee

[Andrea Marici]

Hi everyone, my name is Andrea.

It is the first time that I write here but I have known this forum for a while and I have seen that it is frequented by very experienced people.

My guinea pig is 3 and a half years old. At the end of May she had a problem with gastrointestinal stasis. The vet managed to fix it but before things settled down, they seemed to get worse. So I did a very stupid thing. I didn't trust the vet.

I saw her feeling sick and so I looked online if I could increase the painkiller, the metacam-based Meloxydil.

The doctor initially prescribed 0.15ml for 7 days. As she was not improving, she told us to continue the treatment. And so 7 days became 10. But I had read that even huge quantities of metacam would not have been a problem so I thought we could increase it. My father thought of increasing it further. In total, what should have been 1.5 ml became 4 ml in 10 days.
I live in Italy so maybe you don't know Meloxydil but it contains 0,5 mg/ml of Metacam.

When we told the veterinarian immediately afterwards, she told us these words: << You were lucky because if she now would have had blood in her urine it would have meant that she had kidney failure >>.

But it didn't happen. I checked several times at first and her pee was normal.

But today I picked her up and when I placed her in her cage she did a lot of dark pee. The smell seemed normal.

Also today she drank 90 mls of water. She had never drunk so much. However, in the last few days I have not noticed excessive thirst.

It can't have been a new vegetable.

But looking back over the last week I think I've seen her pee more often but in small amounts at a time. And then 3 or 4 days ago she peed on the sofa and left a dark stain. There, however, I did not pay attention to it.

The only food we added was the Oxbow pellets. She didn't eat pellet before. And I noticed that this makes her thirsty. Indeed, just today, which was the day she drank the most, it was also the day she ate the most pellets.

Other than that I have not noticed anything else.

Please tell me if it is possible that giving her too much Meloxydil may have caused kidney damage almost two months later.

Thank you.

 

[Siikibam]

Hello and welcome. Piggies have a high metabolic rate so can tolerate a fairly high dose. But I don’t know what dosage is too high for piggies. Was she prescribed dog or cat metacam? Was she given anything else for the stasis?

I think eating pellets can make them drink more. Do be aware that they only need a tablespoon a day and no more.

I’ll tag @VickiA @Piggies&buns @PigglePuggle
Meanwhile have a read of the guide below.
Digestive Disorders: Diarrhea - Bloat - GI Stasis (No Gut Movement) And Not Eating

 

[Free Ranger]

Eating pellets definitely makes them drink more. I put the water next to the pellets in my cages so they find it easy to go between the two. Also if she had a more 'wet' diet before (more veggies or grass) she would be drinking less and if she gets some calories from the pellets instead she would be probably be taking less veg too. If it is the first time she has had pellets she might have been excited and gorged on them! Then she would have needed to drink!

I think you have been prescribed what we call 'cat' strength metacam at 0.5 mg/ml. So you were prescribed 0.15 ml per day and after 10 days the TOTAL would have been 1.5 ml but you ended up giving 4 ml total over 10 days. Does this mean 0.4 ml per day of the 0.5 mg/ml? If so, this is a lower dose than I have been prescribed for piggies and I would not worry abut this. My older boar is currently on 0.4 ml of this concentration twice a day - he will be on it long term so we have to make decisions about whether to reduce it in the future but for now he is fine. Perhaps it was different though? Perhaps you did 0.15 ml for some days and then gave a much bigger amount on the last few? If you can clarify this we can make sure. But I have had more than one pig in the past who has been on vet prescribed doses higher than this... I didn't worry. Recently they are more reluctant to prescribe higher because this strength metacam has finally been officially licensed for piggies at a dose between 0.1 and 0.2 ml so many vets stick closely to that. It is only my older vets (who also keep piggies themselves) that are more flexible because they have prescribed higher in the past and also used higher for their own pets.

Dark pee can happen for other reasons. Sometimes pee is quite clear when fresh but rapidly oxidises within minutes to go very dark. I had mine on big towels for a few hours yesterday while I rearranged the cages and afterwards the stains from all 3 looked horrifying! Sometimes pee has blood but usually if piggy is peeing blood there is an underlying condition (like urine infection or bladder stones/sludge) which makes peeing painful... she will perhaps hunch up and chirp in pain as she pees, she might look subdued and sit with her face to a corner, or she might have a wet or dirty bottom from dripping pee (incontinence). If she is peeing freely, eating and drinking well and not losing weight, she doesn't sound unwell in herself. Try and see if you can look at the pee fresh, in a plastic bowl or white towel, and then watch it for the next few minutes. Does it go darker? Then look again half and hour later - any darker? If she has a friend (and they really do need a friend, they are such social little creatures) you can compare the colour of pee from the other piggie too.

If you are still worried you can obviously go back to your vet and she can test the urine for blood or bacteria. Good luck x

 

[Andrea Marici]

Eating pellets definitely makes them drink more. I put the water next to the pellets in my cages so they find it easy to go between the two. Also if she had a more 'wet' diet before (more veggies or grass) she would be drinking less and if she gets some calories from the pellets instead she would be probably be taking less veg too. If it is the first time she has had pellets she might have been excited and gorged on them! Then she would have needed to drink!

I think you have been prescribed what we call 'cat' strength metacam at 0.5 mg/ml. So you were prescribed 0.15 ml per day and after 10 days the TOTAL would have been 1.5 ml but you ended up giving 4 ml total over 10 days. Does this mean 0.4 ml per day of the 0.5 mg/ml? If so, this is a lower dose than I have been prescribed for piggies and I would not worry abut this. My older boar is currently on 0.4 ml of this concentration twice a day - he will be on it long term so we have to make decisions about whether to reduce it in the future but for now he is fine. Perhaps it was different though? Perhaps you did 0.15 ml for some days and then gave a much bigger amount on the last few? If you can clarify this we can make sure. But I have had more than one pig in the past who has been on vet prescribed doses higher than this... I didn't worry. Recently they are more reluctant to prescribe higher because this strength metacam has finally been officially licensed for piggies at a dose between 0.1 and 0.2 ml so many vets stick closely to that. It is only my older vets (who also keep piggies themselves) that are more flexible because they have prescribed higher in the past and also used higher for their own pets.

Dark pee can happen for other reasons. Sometimes pee is quite clear when fresh but rapidly oxidises within minutes to go very dark. I had mine on big towels for a few hours yesterday while I rearranged the cages and afterwards the stains from all 3 looked horrifying! Sometimes pee has blood but usually if piggy is peeing blood there is an underlying condition (like urine infection or bladder stones/sludge) which makes peeing painful... she will perhaps hunch up and chirp in pain as she pees, she might look subdued and sit with her face to a corner, or she might have a wet or dirty bottom from dripping pee (incontinence). If she is peeing freely, eating and drinking well and not losing weight, she doesn't sound unwell in herself. Try and see if you can look at the pee fresh, in a plastic bowl or white towel, and then watch it for the next few minutes. Does it go darker? Then look again half and hour later - any darker? If she has a friend (and they really do need a friend, they are such social little creatures) you can compare the colour of pee from the other piggie too.

If you are still worried you can obviously go back to your vet and she can test the urine for blood or bacteria. Good luck x

Thank you. Yes, for the first 4 days i only gave her 0,15 per day but then i reached 0,4 ml twice a day. About the urine, today it looked normal. When she pees she doesn't scream in pain and it doesn't look painful. But in the last two weeks she's been less active. Sometimes she leaves some veggies and often sits in the corner with her head down, even for 2 hours.
Sometimes i hear noises from her belly and sometimes she makes few stools and farts. At first we and the vet thought it was just that but the situation is not that bad so I'm starting to worry it might be something else.
In the past anyway she did scream while peeing for a few days. But the pee was normal and the vet said that maybe it could be a new behavior. And i noticed that she did it only when i was very close.
I'll keep watching her for the next days and call the vet if i see something scary. Thank you.

 

[Free Ranger]

It is also very good to monitor her weight - you can use kitchen scales. If she's poorly she'll be losing weight. There is always a bit of up-and-down each day though so don't panic over 10 or 20 grams if she puts it back on again - there is the difference between full/empty tummy or full/empty bladder. If she is losing weight week after week it is not a good sign. Loose stools and farting can be a sign that there are too many veggies or fruits in the diet - especially some piggies can be sensitive to brassicas and too much fruit is not so good because of all the sugars. Try offering a handful of fresh hay as a treat... even if she already has some she'll still be delighted. Piggies should never cry when peeing but if it has stopped it might have been something passing - sludge in the urine making her sore as she pees or something like that. But please keep an eye on it in case it comes back. Here's the forum guide to weight checking:
Weight - Monitoring and Management

 

[Andrea Marici]

It is also very good to monitor her weight - you can use kitchen scales. If she's poorly she'll be losing weight. There is always a bit of up-and-down each day though so don't panic over 10 or 20 grams if she puts it back on again - there is the difference between full/empty tummy or full/empty bladder. If she is losing weight week after week it is not a good sign. Loose stools and farting can be a sign that there are too many veggies or fruits in the diet - especially some piggies can be sensitive to brassicas and too much fruit is not so good because of all the sugars. Try offering a handful of fresh hay as a treat... even if she already has some she'll still be delighted. Piggies should never cry when peeing but if it has stopped it might have been something passing - sludge in the urine making her sore as she pees or something like that. But please keep an eye on it in case it comes back. Here's the forum guide to weight checking:
Weight - Monitoring and Management

Yes, thank you. I always weigh her. Before she got sick, in May she weighed 1207 g. Now she weighs 985 g. But in the last two weeks, she has been stable.
Sorry if I ask too much but to avoid bloating i need to avoid brassicas, fruit, maybe carrots because they are too sweet, right? But the vet told me to reduce Romain lettuce because it has too much water. Should I? I mean I tried other types of lettuce but she likes romaine more.

 

[Free Ranger]

Ooh she has lost quite a bit of weight but being stable is good. I'm not so experienced with this sort of upset gut so have a read of the guide siikibam linked in above about digestive disorders and I will again tag @Wiebke @VickiA @PigglePuggle

The guide suggests removing all fresh veg, forage and grass for 48 hours to allow her poops to normalise but wait for the experts to advise more as she has lost weight. There are foods you can try to increase her weight but to be honest I would not risk upsetting her gut with new foods at the minute when the gut is still trying to find it's balance. Has she had any antibiotics that might have upset her stomach? And when you say romaine lettuce are we talking a few small strips or a few whole leaves!

 

[Andrea Marici]

Ooh she has lost quite a bit of weight but being stable is good. I'm not so experienced with this sort of upset gut so have a read of the guide siikibam linked in above about digestive disorders and I will again tag @Wiebke @VickiA @PigglePuggle

The guide suggests removing all fresh veg, forage and grass for 48 hours to allow her poops to normalise but wait for the experts to advise more as she has lost weight. There are foods you can try to increase her weight but to be honest I would not risk upsetting her gut with new foods at the minute when the gut is still trying to find it's balance. Has she had any antibiotics that might have upset her stomach? And when you say romaine lettuce are we talking a few small strips or a few whole leaves!

I give her whole leaves of roamaine lettuce everyday, like 3/4 everyday. And the vet is not worried about the weight. As long as she doesn't lose more, I'm fine with it too. She did take antibiotics but only for two days

 

[VickiA]

Please have a look at our diet guide Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets. It describes and shows the appropriate amount of veggies for a piggy to have daily. Personally I don’t feed lettuce each day. My piggies have coriander (cilantro) daily instead. If she has gurgling guts and is passing wind, I would stop all fresh veggies and fresh grass and feed pellets and hay only for 24-48 hours to let her guts stabilise.

Dark pee can be indicative of the start of a urine infection. It would be worth getting a sample tested by your vets to see if there is any blood in the urine or if there is any infection. Here is the guide that shows how to get a urine sample How To Collect A Urine Sample

 

[Free Ranger]

OK, wait and see what the others say about her tummy noises and gas. They might think 3 or 4 leaves each day is a lot... it's more than I give but that's not to say it's too much! I personally give a lump of bell pepper (about 1/8th piece), a thick slice of cucumber and maybe a quarter leaf of lettuce every day per pig - and I rotate a few other things here and there - but I do give a massive pile of fresh grass which probably evens things out.

 

[Piggies&buns]

I agree with @VickiA .
That is a lot of lettuce. Lettuce is low nutrition and low vitamin c so not something they need to be eating a lot of.

She needs to be eating plenty of hay as the main bulk of her diet

 

[PigglePuggle]

Hi, sorry your girl is unwell. The 0.5mg/ml "cat" meloxicam medicine you describe has been scientifically tested to be safe at up to 1ml per day for piggies, and experienced vets often prescribe 0.4mls of stronger 1.5mg/ml "dog" meloxicam for piggies, so I dont think you need to worry too much about that.
Drinking a lot could just be piggy flushing out her kidneys and may not be anything to worry about in its own- but, along with weight loss and discoloured pee is a cause for concern.
Blood in pee or discoloured pee or smelly pee can be something as simple as a minor urinary infection needing antibiotics- or, a non bacterial cystitis with general bladder inflammation triggered by stress or other illness- or, kidney/bladder stones or sludge, which sounds unlikely if piggy gets lots of watery lettuces and a low calcium diet but is partly genetically determined so sometimes happens anyway.
Has the vet tested the pee, simple dip stick pee tests for blood and protein, taking a fresh pee sample to check for bacteria? These are easy things to do right in the vets office while you wait as part of a routine consultation.
If that is negative you might consider an unltrasound scan which can sometimes be done without sedation or anaesthesia, just to look at the bladder, kidneys, guts, reproductive organs etc and see if there are stones, inflammation, any masses that may be worrying.
Certainly your piggy sounds unwell and further vet investigations and tests are needed here, but rest assured a bit of extra meloxicam is unlikely to be the cause at all, it is a very safe medicine even at higher doses than some vets prescribe!

 

[PigglePuggle]

Also, just to add, sometimes excessive thirst and weight loss may indicate diabetes- another simple pee dip stick test for glucose in the pee can test for this too x