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Dental Issues - Post Surgery, Elongated Roots, What To Look For?

LozzyBee

LozzyBee

Junior Guinea Pig
Joined
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Location
London
Hi,

I haven't been on here for ages because everything had been hunky dory...however..

Our guinea pig, Elvis, has just had dental work done. His molars were overgrown to the point that they were nearly trapping his tongue (previously missed by two vets, one was an exotic vet!). He has had these filed right down, and an x Ray confirmed that the roots are slightly elongated so he may need to be on long term pain relief (x Ray also spotted he has a possible ear infection!)

He has lost 50g since his surgery 48 hours ago. The vet has said he may need to go back in two weeks if he is still having trouble, and from what I've read, dental issues seem to be a recurring problem.

My concerns are:
1. I don't want him having to have a GA every time he has dental issues.
2. I'm worried I will miss something.
3. Not sure what the general post dental surgery procedure/recovery is? I have confidence in this vet, and he didn't feel Elvis would need critical care for more than the day post op, as he had been eating lots of hay and producing lots of good poops whilst they cared for him post op.
4. He 'may' need metacam long term because of his elongated roots, but how will I know? I don't want to pump him with pain relief just in case, but then I also don't want him in pain!

He did seem to be back to grazing on hay again yesterday. More so than in previous days, but nowhere near as much as he was before I noticed he was having issues with his teeth. Interestingly, if I cut grass for them, he scoffs it down without any issues whatsoever. So I know he CAN eat, I just don't know when he'll get back his full appetite for hay!

I guess after all that, my main questions are what am I looking for now? And what can I do to help him? In terms of his diet and what to look out for.

He is on .4ml metacam (dog) twice a day, and 1ml baytril for his ear problem.

Sorry for such a long waffly post!
Laura
 
Dental problems can be a long term issue, but not necessarily. It would really be worth seeing Simon Maddock at the Cat & Rabbit Clinic in Northampton. He does conscious dental work, so the Guinea pig can have frequent treatments and has excellent results, some miraculous. @furryfriends (TEAS) will be able to give you good advice, as she is THE dental expert on here.
 
I second @Elwickcavies advice. Because guinea pig teeth have evolved being ground down by the harsh silica in hay and grass, they are about the fastest growing of all rodents and need regular aftercare, often another filing within 2 weeks at first and then with growing intervals.

It can take several rounds of burring aftercare to balance out the dental system for the long term, but Simon Maddock has shown that it can be done if you use conscious dentals for the aftercare treatment. He sees on average 2-3 dental guinea pigs a day from all around the country (from as far as Edinburgh) and has saved many guineas by combining initial GA dental care with conscious burring in subsequent treatments. Most of the guinea pigs he sees have been given up or by their own vets, including exotic vets. He is NOT a rodentologist, but the most practised and experienced vet in this country when it comes to dental problems.

Unfortunately because of the rodentologists and their courses on conscious dental filing, which is often inexpertly and wrongly done and therefore very damaging, conscious dentals have become anathema for most vets - sadly with often fatal consquences for the piggies involved as there are limits as to how many GAs in short succession they can have. Guinea pig dentals are one of the areas that is sadly woefully neglected and far too little is still known in how to get and stay on top of dental problems. :(

Because of their insistense on GA, most vets wait too long until teeth have fully overgrown again, so they never get as far as rebalancing/keeping the disturbed dental system blalanced; it is just always back to square one. There is usually a pain issue somewhere that causes uneven chewing and overgrowth, which can happen extremely quickly.

PS: Simon Maddock has gained his experience by looking after the guinea pigs of The Excellent Adventure Sanctuary (TEAS), which specifically looks after guinea pigs with chronic dental issues for several years now. With regular vet and diet support, these guinea pigs can still have an amazing quality of life and lead normal lives. ;)
The Cat and Rabbit Care Clinic
 
Another Simon recommendation here. I am in Herts and my 2 dental pigs (plus a bladder pig) go to see him or his wife Kim at least once a month and a lot of those times my partner takes them on the train through London. He then gets the bus the other end.
 
Thank you both of you for your replies. I am a little gutted I've got to admit, as I do have faith in this new vet (Trinity Vet Centre in Maidstone), but as I say I'm just concerned at the possible amount of GA's that may go on.
I will wait to see if @furryfriends (TEAS) gets a chance to respond to this thread as I'm a little unsure where to go from here. Am not sure of the logistics of trying to get up there (I can, but it's at least a 2 hour drive one way and I'd need to try and fit it in within the school day somehow...)...also not sure whether it's best to follow up with Trinity Vets, or to start afresh with Simon. He's been pulled around from pillar to post bless him - saw two different local vets, then when he has his health check at the rescue they spotted his overgrown teeth, and now he has been to Trinity!
Obviously would really like to get it sorted once and for all. I do have faith that Trinity can, it's just the GA issue :-/
 
@LozzyBee : our syringe feeding guide has got a section that deals with caring for dental guinea pigs (with the input from TEAS sanctuary's experiences looking after their dental guinea pigs). Please be aware that guinea pigs, especially those with longer term untreated problems do not eat normall straight away. their mouths are often still very painful after dental treatment and they need your help.
Complete Syringe Feeding Guide

PS: Simon and Kim have been looking after my piggies, too, including two older dental abscess piggies that my local vets couldn't deal with, but also various bladder ops and two older sow spays.
Whenever my hub cannot drive me, I go by train, even with freshly operated piggies. I have never had significant post-op problems there.
 
Wiebke said:
@LozzyBee : our syringe feeding guide has got a section that deals with caring for dental guinea pigs (with the input from TEAS sanctuary's experiences looking after their dental guinea pigs). Please be aware that guinea pigs, especially those with longer term untreated problems do not eat normall straight away. their mouths are often still very painful after dental treatment and they need your help.
Complete Syringe Feeding Guide
Click to expand...

Thank you for this! I have consulted it many times over the past week or so, it has been invaluable!
 
If you could possibly get up to see Simon it would really be worth the trip. Simon is amazing and is now completely curing more and more piggies with dental disease and those who don't completely cure are very manageable, many only needing a quick tidy up of teeth every few months. TEAS would not exist without Simon's tremendous skill and knowledge. xx
 
furryfriends (TEAS) said:
If you could possibly get up to see Simon it would really be worth the trip. Simon is amazing and is now completely curing more and more piggies with dental disease and those who don't completely cure are very manageable, many only needing a quick tidy up of teeth every few months. TEAS would not exist without Simon's tremendous skill and knowledge. xx
Click to expand...

As he has just had his teeth filed down (Tues 23rd) when would you recommend I try to get him up to see Simon? Am just not sure of the time frame in terms of regrowth, and am not sure if there anything to see just yet?
 
furryfriends (TEAS) said:
How's he doing at the moment?
Click to expand...

All things considered (also has an ear infection, and yesterday sprained his ankle/leg/paw when he heard a noise and ran for cover too quickly :() he seems to be doing ok. He's gaining a little weight. Is now picking on a little more hay (although still not grazing as much as he used to yet). Eating veg on his own without me having to break it in to bite sized pieces for him.

He will still occasionally move his mouth like he's having some sort of trouble in there, but am not sure if that's now because he's sore from dental work.

The vet where he had his work done (Trinity Vets in Maidstone - recommended by the gp rescue we got him from) said he may need to go back in a couple of weeks if he's still not ok, but I'm just not sure what I'm supposed to be looking for to know if he's not ok?! :help:
 
Dental issues aren't generally sorted in one dental, so yes they are right in saying about going back in two weeks. The problem will be that they will need to give him another GA. I would see how he is doing in a couple of weeks and then decide where to go from there. Simon would be able to do the dental without GA, and as he does so many guinea pig dentals, he does spot things that other vets seem to miss. x
 
furryfriends (TEAS) said:
Dental issues aren't generally sorted in one dental, so yes they are right in saying about going back in two weeks. The problem will be that they will need to give him another GA. I would see how he is doing in a couple of weeks and then decide where to go from there. Simon would be able to do the dental without GA, and as he does so many guinea pig dentals, he does spot things that other vets seem to miss. x
Click to expand...

Thank you for the advice, that's what I'm thinking to be honest - see how it goes and make my decision in a couple of weeks.

The GA is exactly what I'm concerned about. Am full of faith they could sort him out to be honest, but I don't want him having another one so soon.

Could I also ask - they picked up that he has slightly elongated roots, would Simon need to X-ray him again to look at this? I just don't want him to go through any more than he has to...trying to weigh up my options while I'm waiting!
 
The reason that such excellent results are achieved with the conscious dentals is because you can go back and tidy up the mouth again before the piggy stops eating again. When vets do GA dentals they usually wait until the piggy is struggling again before doing another dental so basically they just keep patching them up again. When you can keep them eating and just keep tidying up the mouth, you stand a far higher chance of getting a complete cure, or certainly getting them to a point where they only need teeth filing every few months.
 
LozzyBee said:
Thank you for the advice, that's what I'm thinking to be honest - see how it goes and make my decision in a couple of weeks.

The GA is exactly what I'm concerned about. Am full of faith they could sort him out to be honest, but I don't want him having another one so soon.

Could I also ask - they picked up that he has slightly elongated roots, would Simon need to X-ray him again to look at this? I just don't want him to go through any more than he has to...trying to weigh up my options while I'm waiting!
Click to expand...
Hi Laura - I just wondered how Elvis is doing now? My piggy Jambo has had similar problems as Elvis and I nearly took him to Trinity Vets in Maidstone but opted for Sandhole vets at Leybourne. Jude
 
Jude said:
Hi Laura - I just wondered how Elvis is doing now? My piggy Jambo has had similar problems as Elvis and I nearly took him to Trinity Vets in Maidstone but opted for Sandhole vets at Leybourne. Jude
Click to expand...

Hi, how is Jambo doing with Sandhole vets? Elvis is doing ok, however, he has to have fortnightly dentals up in Northampton with Simon and Kim Maddock. The issue with him has turned out to be that two of his teeth are growing 'like lava from a volcano' - they're growing spread out all over the place rather than straight up/down, and with spurs too. Obviously there's no way he could have fortnightly GA's, so that's why I travel up to Northampton. The initial hope was that it could eventually be spread out so it was every 5-6 weeks, but it just hasn't worked out that way unfortunately.

He was doing brilliantly after that first dental at Trinity, but within a couple of weeks he started behaving the same again. Almost like there was something stuck in his teeth. Thats when I ended up taking him up to the cat and rabbit clinic.

He is eating pellets, grass, and veg, but he rarely eats hay now which likely isn't helping his teeth issues. He's happy in himself, still has a good quality of life etc. He did have a blip where I had to syringe feed him solidly for 2 weeks between appointments, but it seemed to have been a one off. Not sure what happened there

We're actually on holiday at the moment and Elvis and Barlo are staying at the Guinea pig rescue we got Elvis from. The lady who runs the rescue has tried cutting hay into shorter strands for him to see if he'll take it that way.

It's obviously not the outcome I wanted, but at the moment, work and finances mean that I can keep it up. If circumstances change, I'll worry later!

Good luck with your Jambo x
 
LozzyBee said:
Hi, how is Jambo doing with Sandhole vets? Elvis is doing ok, however, he has to have fortnightly dentals up in Northampton with Simon and Kim Maddock. The issue with him has turned out to be that two of his teeth are growing 'like lava from a volcano' - they're growing spread out all over the place rather than straight up/down, and with spurs too. Obviously there's no way he could have fortnightly GA's, so that's why I travel up to Northampton. The initial hope was that it could eventually be spread out so it was every 5-6 weeks, but it just hasn't worked out that way unfortunately.

He was doing brilliantly after that first dental at Trinity, but within a couple of weeks he started behaving the same again. Almost like there was something stuck in his teeth. Thats when I ended up taking him up to the cat and rabbit clinic.

He is eating pellets, grass, and veg, but he rarely eats hay now which likely isn't helping his teeth issues. He's happy in himself, still has a good quality of life etc. He did have a blip where I had to syringe feed him solidly for 2 weeks between appointments, but it seemed to have been a one off. Not sure what happened there

We're actually on holiday at the moment and Elvis and Barlo are staying at the Guinea pig rescue we got Elvis from. The lady who runs the rescue has tried cutting hay into shorter strands for him to see if he'll take it that way.

It's obviously not the outcome I wanted, but at the moment, work and finances mean that I can keep it up. If circumstances change, I'll worry later!

Good luck with your Jambo x
Click to expand...
Good to hear Elvis has a good quality of life. Jambo has his follow up appointment at Sandhole next Friday. We are still feeding him critical care, which he hates and he's on pain relief twice a day. He is still eating, slowly but cannot manage big chucks of veg. Likes long grass but I don't think he can graze. I have ordered some oat hay to see if that helps. I tried him with a courser forage yesterday and he was tucking into that. The downside is he continued to lose weight and that worries me. If the vet isn't happy with him next Friday, she will xray him but that's another GA so not ideal. I have to say that he isn't his normal self.
 
Jude said:
Good to hear Elvis has a good quality of life. Jambo has his follow up appointment at Sandhole next Friday. We are still feeding him critical care, which he hates and he's on pain relief twice a day. He is still eating, slowly but cannot manage big chucks of veg. Likes long grass but I don't think he can graze. I have ordered some oat hay to see if that helps. I tried him with a courser forage yesterday and he was tucking into that. The downside is he continued to lose weight and that worries me. If the vet isn't happy with him next Friday, she will xray him but that's another GA so not ideal. I have to say that he isn't his normal self.
Click to expand...

Elvis did go through a period where he couldn't manage veg. I had to grate it for him and he seemed ok with that. Critical care was hit and miss with him, so I ended up syringing him mushed up pellets which he took much better.

Elvis has steadily lost weight too - I think he originally started his dental issues at 1.12kg, and is now 1.03kg. It's been a very slow steady decrease though. Kim (Northampton vet) is concerned, but while his quality of life is as it is, and he's quite happy, she's also not if that makes any sense. He seems to have kept his recent weight for a few weeks now though, and the rescue he's boarding at have emailed to say they changed his dry food to supreme science selective and he is gaining some weight on it.

Elvis does like nibbling on hay balls too. Might be worth trying?
 
LozzyBee said:
Elvis did go through a period where he couldn't manage veg. I had to grate it for him and he seemed ok with that. Critical care was hit and miss with him, so I ended up syringing him mushed up pellets which he took much better.

Elvis has steadily lost weight too - I think he originally started his dental issues at 1.12kg, and is now 1.03kg. It's been a very slow steady decrease though. Kim (Northampton vet) is concerned, but while his quality of life is as it is, and he's quite happy, she's also not if that makes any sense. He seems to have kept his recent weight for a few weeks now though, and the rescue he's boarding at have emailed to say they changed his dry food to supreme science selective and he is gaining some weight on it.

Elvis does like nibbling on hay balls too. Might be worth trying?
Click to expand...
Thanks for your advice. Jambo started at 1400g and is now 1160g - that's over a month but the vet wasn't concerned as his guts are still working. I have just given him and the girls a huge pile of long grass and he is literally stuffing his face. First time I've seen him do that in a while. Maybe he's turned a corner. I might try the mashed nuggets.
 
Wiebke said:
I second @Elwickcavies advice. Because guinea pig teeth have evolved being ground down by the harsh silica in hay and grass, they are about the fastest growing of all rodents and need regular aftercare, often another filing within 2 weeks at first and then with growing intervals.

It can take several rounds of burring aftercare to balance out the dental system for the long term, but Simon Maddock has shown that it can be done if you use conscious dentals for the aftercare treatment. He sees on average 2-3 dental guinea pigs a day from all around the country (from as far as Edinburgh) and has saved many guineas by combining initial GA dental care with conscious burring in subsequent treatments. Most of the guinea pigs he sees have been given up or by their own vets, including exotic vets. He is NOT a rodentologist, but the most practised and experienced vet in this country when it comes to dental problems.

Unfortunately because of the rodentologists and their courses on conscious dental filing, which is often inexpertly and wrongly done and therefore very damaging, conscious dentals have become anathema for most vets - sadly with often fatal consquences for the piggies involved as there are limits as to how many GAs in short succession they can have. Guinea pig dentals are one of the areas that is sadly woefully neglected and far too little is still known in how to get and stay on top of dental problems. :(

Because of their insistense on GA, most vets wait too long until teeth have fully overgrown again, so they never get as far as rebalancing/keeping the disturbed dental system blalanced; it is just always back to square one. There is usually a pain issue somewhere that causes uneven chewing and overgrowth, which can happen extremely quickly.

PS: Simon Maddock has gained his experience by looking after the guinea pigs of The Excellent Adventure Sanctuary (TEAS), which specifically looks after guinea pigs with chronic dental issues for several years now. With regular vet and diet support, these guinea pigs can still have an amazing quality of life and lead normal lives. ;)
The Cat and Rabbit Care Clinic
Click to expand...
I'm in the US and I find these posts so depressing. I'm tempted to hop on a plane to see this Simon doctor :( It's really hard to know who to trust
 
Marissa pig mother said:
I'm in the US and I find these posts so depressing. I'm tempted to hop on a plane to see this Simon doctor :( It's really hard to know who to trust
Click to expand...

Guinea pigs and other small pet rodents fall very much into gap of not being part of a general vet's curriculum despite being common pets and being too pedestrian for exotics vets. Guinea pig dentals don't feature at all... It is a huge problem in any country - there are far too few vets who are knowledgeable on that aspect.
There are a few vets in the USA who are experienced with piggy dentals but it is very much hit and miss as to whether you ar within reach of one or not; the same as in the UK although distances are comparatively shorter. Some people have travelled for up to 8 hours one way to see Simon... But the clinic is now so oversubscribed that they will only see referrals from vets that cannot cope with dentals. :(

Here is a link to recommended vets in your state. Perhaps that can help you further? Veterinarians: New Jersey - Guinea Lynx Records
 
In the US guinea pigs definitely go to an exotics vet. They're not really exotic, but in terms of US veterinarians, that's the usual term you're looking for. You can try reading through reviews, but prepared to take them all with a grain of salt, as generally, those who are upset are more likely to review than those who are happy; you'll need to interpret what different comments mean to you and your pet. I would A) ask a friend/colleague who also has small animals; B) ask the local rescues that have guinea pigs whether they have a preferred vet; C) ask at your favorite local pet shop, as often the people work there will have small animals, and the shop will also have someone that looks at their animals.
I'm not sure how many US vets do dental, as it's, fortunately, not something I've had to look into, so those may be pretty few and far between. I'm several hours away from New Jersey, so I couldn't tell you much about any of the vets listed on Wiebke's link, but I will say, looking at the list for my state, it only covers some of the practices that I know do guinea pigs and seems like it may not have been updated all that recently.
 
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