Dental Dental issues!

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

It's so frustrating that so many vets don't understand the pain relief needs of guinea pigs.

 

[Pigoles]

An sad update.

I continued to give syringe feeds every 2.5 hours during the day and once at night. Melvin was still pooing regularly, but small, hard poos. I gave extra water with the syringe feeds and wet the bits of grass that he would nibble. He would nibble a little grass and strawberry/grape cut into tiny pieces off a spoon. But hardly ever getting up to walk around his c&c, largely just sitting hunched in his bed. I rang the Northampton vet for advice (when he got back from holiday on Monday), as was so worried Melvin was in pain. The phone call was reassuring that I was doing the right things with Metacam/syringe feeds/warmth and quiet familiar surroundings, but realistic that it may be that Melvin had an ongoing dental issue that had not been resolved by the vet's GA dental surgery ( ), or an underlying issue alongside. His age was unknown as he was a rescue piggie ... but was fully adult when SIL rehomed him 18 months ago, and the rescue said he had had a previous life with his own harem of girls!

However, on Monday afternoon, Melvin refused his syringe feed over two feeds, wriggling strongly to get away and only taking water from the syringe reluctantly. I read the forum guides, about refusal of syringe feeds, and spoke to my SIL (Melvin's owner) about what this may mean. I did managed to get more into him over the next few syringe feeds (back up to 12-15 mls), and he tried to nibble on some cucumber when in his c&c, but initially nearly gaining back to his (already low - 800g) pre-op weight, he dropped 15g overnight. I felt that 5 days on from his dental surgery, there was little improvement.
He did take another 15mls syringe feed in the morning, then a reluctant 3mls at the next feed. He was able to drink from his water bottle for the first time, and eat some groundsel, but when my SIL arrived, we decided that it was time. He was so frail, and it was so very painful watching him just sitting, not the bossy, inquisitive, lively piggie that I knew.

His cage mate Bella had also dramatically changed her behaviour, after sitting peacefully with him over the first few days, she starting with 'rumbling' at him occasionally. I sat them together after feeding Melvin to take some photos and then she suddenly began trying to jump onto his back continually! He was so frail, he couldn't move away. I don't know why her aggressive behaviour suddenly started, as they were only separated for brief 30-45mins periods when I syringe-fed Melvin? I decided to separate them with c&c grids inbetween, as Melvin was so frail. Melvin came to the bars to investigate and rubbed noses with her, before going back to bed, but Bella was so agitated. She continually nibbled at the bars, squeaking, running around, trying to climb the grids - I had never seen her like this! I sat quietly and tried to calm her with my voice/favourite foods, but her behaviour continued. I tried showing her Melvin on my lap, but again she did more jumping aggressively on him, so eventually I had to cover the bars between them with a blanket, and leave her sitting against the bars. That was one of the saddest times - seeing the bond seemingly disappear, as she has always cuddled up to him as her protector. I don't know why her behaviour changed so much?

Sweet Melvin cuddled into me, before the vet took him away. I brought him home, and placed him in with Bella (as advised in the forum guides), for three hours, before burying him amongst the roses.

It's the questions that haunt me ... the feeling that I failed him. I tried so hard (having very suddenly suddenly become a piggie mum 5 months ago!), reading up on feeding properly, making their c&c, planning and making their outdoor run with my father and spent so many happy hours looking after these sweet piggies over the last 5 months. Yet the one mistake I made was not regularly weighing them, not recognising the alarm bells of a few days of less breakfast eaten and thinking Melvin seemed a lighter piggie as I picked him up ... I wonder if I had acted a few days earlier, would that have made the difference?
And in the pain of the last few days after his op ... the questions of what was the right thing to do (as I knew from reading on here that the vet in Northampton was away and Melvin was so weak), but I worried that my local vet was the wrong choice? The daily worry ... would he pick up, was he suffering, was he strong enough to pull through? He was himself right to the end ... headbutting me away with the syringe and rumbling at me when I laughed ... but I regret trying to persuade him to take his last feed ... I wished I had spent that time just cuddling him ... he would wriggle himself into the crook of my elbow and relax as I stroked him. The questions remaining are the hardest thing ... but I didn't want him to be in pain ...

And now sweet Bella. She is calmer, but scared. She is skittish ... scurrying to hide in her bed at movement, despite my best efforts to use slow movements and my voice. She is scared to venture outside of her bed, so have been trying to utilise lots of her tunnels and thin mesh cover over the end of her c&c to try to make her feel safer ... and today she had a little mooch about with vocal encouragement ... but so very tentatively. The added complication is that I think she is blind with cataracts, as she seems the navigate by smell, with her nose searching the ground? She used to closely follow Melvin, right up to his bum when put into a cleaned c&c, and struggled to find food unless you stuck her nose right into it! I wondered whether she followed his scent trails? I have kept the layout of her c&c the same ... to try to give her comfort in familiarity ... but worry that she is struggling without him to guide her.

She has the jumper that I wore to nurse Melvin over his last days rolled up in his usual bed next to hers. I go to sit and chat with her every couple of hours, to offer her favourite foods (she loves soft thistle!), and cuddle her also. She is eating well, nibbling her hay ... I pick fresh grass for her every few hours, plus eating her morning/evening veg of cucumber, pepper, celery ... plus she nibbled a few pellets his morning ... and is pooing normally. I have tried her in her outside run, and she did venture out for 1/2hr yesterday to nibble the grass. I weigh her daily (very concious of importance of piggie weights now!) and she is floating within 20g of her weight last week (around 1255g-1275g). She feels like her usual tubby piggie with a big soft round tum!

I haven't yet put her back in the cage (they used to go in their overnight) as I'm too nervous and prefer her where I can see her in her c&c! I worry that she will be lonelier there without my frequent voice. But it's so hard not having Melvin running excitedly up to see me. It's hard facing the absence of not seeing his little face ... when your heart twists with sadness ...

Thank you so much for all the responses and help given. I am now trying to do my best for sweet Bella ...

 

[Claire W]

I am so very sorry that you have lost Melvin If it helps, I also lost a piggy to dental issues but please be assured that you did all you could.

Be kind to yourself as you grieve.

Sleep tight Melvin xx

 

[Pigoles]

I am so very sorry that you have lost Melvin If it helps, I also lost a piggy to dental issues but please be assured that you did all you could.

Be kind to yourself as you grieve.

Sleep tight Melvin xx

Thank you very much ... it just seems so hard to lose a piggie to a dental issue ... as I keep thinking could the outcome have been different?

 

[Little Ones]

So sorry for your loss. It’s horrible. I wish vets wouldn’t try and do dentals if they aren’t experienced. I’ve nearly lost one piggy, and put another piggy from an unneeded operation, due to exotic vets posing as dentists when that is so far from the case. Simon in Northampton sorted them out (we are still dealing with the repercussions from one issue, we have to travel to Northampton from Barnsley every two weeks at the moment to keep on top of it). Simon is a blessing, if you ever find yourself in the same situation again, don’t even bother trying anywhere else. Every time I’ve trusted another vet who isn’t Simon with anything mouth related, I’ve regretted it

 

[Little Ones]

Also, to add, I trust this forum and it’s members more than vets (aside from Simon) due to their experience. Some vets really don’t understand guinea pigs, even if they are exotics.
The amount of pain relief prescribed would have been doing basically nothing. As TEAS (owner of a dental sanctuary) said, 1.2-1.5ml of the Cat metacam would have been an appropriate amount and would have managed pain. I’m actually so shocked that a vet who prescribed you that little metacam felt they were confident enough to perform a dental procedure. Just by that dosage alone tells me they understood very little about guinea pigs. I’m just so sorry that you and your lovely guinea pig were on the receiving end of this inexperience.

 

[Pigoles]

It's the knowledge that I probably made wrong choices for him that is most painful I did consider taking him to Simon (a two plus hour drive), but didn't think he would survive until this week (as read that Simon was on holiday) as Melvin was weakening so fast. But part of me thinks maybe with the knowledge I now have gained from here over the past week, I could have kept him going with syringe-feeding until this week? But all the wondering hurts ... and most of all, I didn't want him to be in pain, but sadly I know he was. How do you get vets to prescribe higher doses of painkillers? I feel like I gained Melvin's trust and then I let him down ...

 

[Claire W]

It's the knowledge that I probably made wrong choices for him that is most painful I did consider taking him to Simon (a two plus hour drive), but didn't think he would survive until this week (as read that Simon was on holiday) as Melvin was weakening so fast. But part of me thinks maybe with the knowledge I now have gained from here over the past week, I could have kept him going with syringe-feeding until this week? But all the wondering hurts ... and most of all, I didn't want him to be in pain, but sadly I know he was. How do you get vets to prescribe higher doses of painkillers? I feel like I gained Melvin's trust and then I let him down ...

Please don’t feel like you have let Melvin down as you haven’t.

Only a vet can prescribe a higher dose of painkiller but some are reluctant too.

 

[Little Ones]

It's the knowledge that I probably made wrong choices for him that is most painful I did consider taking him to Simon (a two plus hour drive), but didn't think he would survive until this week (as read that Simon was on holiday) as Melvin was weakening so fast. But part of me thinks maybe with the knowledge I now have gained from here over the past week, I could have kept him going with syringe-feeding until this week? But all the wondering hurts ... and most of all, I didn't want him to be in pain, but sadly I know he was. How do you get vets to prescribe higher doses of painkillers? I feel like I gained Melvin's trust and then I let him down ...

Don’t blame yourself, it’s the vet that is to blame. Guinea pigs are usually able to eat right after dentals which are done correctly, obviously with GA it takes a bit of coming round but the same idea still applies.
With pain relief, I tend to give as much as I see fit. It’s not up to the vet in my eyes, as I’m right there with my pig and can judge his pain. As metacam is liquid, you can syringe however much you like. I had one vet in the past prescribe my pig 1.5ml twice a day of the dog metacam so that’s like 10x (I’m no mathematician) stronger than what you were giving your piggy, so don’t be afraid of OD’ing them, lol. Generally I go by Simon’s dosage which is 0.3 or 0.4, depending on which piggy, twice a day of dog strength metacam. Sometimes if I feel pain is bad then I give that dosage every six hours to make sure it’s constantly working at maximum strength. Obviously, if you’ve only got a small bottle then it might mean you’d run out if you did this but generally if you run out of metacam/loxicom and ring the vets, they will give you more to pick up. With the pain relief, the strengths are either dog or cat, but if you get prescribed a cat metacam which is weaker then you can calculate a proper, higher dosage - which trusting, what Debbie had said, would have been 1.2-1.5ml for Melvin.

As owners, we do what we think is best at the time. You didn’t want him suffering for any longer and then you made the most selfless choice you could ever make. You are not to blame for this. Everything you did was out of love, and the person you trusted with the care of your Guinea pig failed you. I was almost in your position because a vet failed to do the job they had me believe they could do correctly. Because of that, my pig went through a month of agony which he partially disguised. We didn’t know the extent of his suffering until Simon informed us of this after essentially saving his life. I felt horrible, I still do. The fact that he was in so much pain breaks my heart.
We are also over a two hour drive from Simon, I rely on lifts to get there, but it’s always worth it because he’s a vet that I never ever second guess. Whatever he tells me, I trust him.
You didn’t let Melvin down, everything you did was to make him better and not in any pain. Be kind to yourself

Edit; also the fact that you had to actually ask for the pain relief in the first place is very telling of the kind of vet you went to. Metacam/loxicom is very important to control pain particularly after an operation and particularly a dental! The pain relief is something I feel piggy owners should always have at hand as if you notice something off in your pig, you can use it as a precaution to help them feel better until you are able to be seen by a vet.

 

[Bill & Ted]

I’m so sorry you’ve lost Melvin, you tried very hard to keep him going, I‘m so sorry for you x
It’s extremely difficult finding a vet who can do guinea pig dentals correctly, there’s only one I trust Simon Maddock in Northampton as my Ted has had two very unsuccessful dentals with local vets in the past. We are taking Ted for dentals every two weeks atm from Cornwall, it’s a great strain looking after dental piggies and you did a marvellous job looking after him x

 

[Pigoles]

Thank you for your really kind responses.

I have been hugely struggling since Melvin was PTS ... so desperately tearful. I keep thinking over the decisions made ... I feel so full of regret and loss ... that my panicked decisions when I realised he was so underweight and unable to eat meant I trusted our local vet to operate when I should have researched more.

Afterwards I was so confused, with the conflict of the vet's advice on pain relief and what I read here ... I just didn't know what to do ... I didn't know what/who was right. I am haunted that when I spoke to the Northampton vet on Monday morning that Melvin seemed to be stable on syringe feeding and we discussed seeing how he went over the next few days ... I should have just taken him then and there ...

Only hours after, he refused two syringe feeds, wriggling so strongly I couldn't hold him in position to get anything into him at all. I read about refusal of syringe feeding and feared that he was dying. I spoke with my SIL (his owner) about wishing Melvin not to suffer. I was so worried and upset overnight witnessing the distress of his friend Bella, as she was so constantly trying to mount/dominate him that I had to add a partition to their run. That night I was up for hours trying to feed Melvin and trying to reassure/comfort Bella ... after 5 days of 24 hour care, I was totally exhausted. I sat beside their run at 3.30am and wept and wept at the sight of my hunched poorly piggie and his frantically running squeaking friend, after all my reading and efforts to care from them as best I possibly could over the preceding 5 months, I felt I had totally failed them both ...

In the early morning, with my mother holding Melvin, I managed to get 15mls into him. He also began to drink once again from his water bottle when I held it to his mouth (he had refused before). But when I weighed him he had dropped 15g overnight, and 2.5 hours later he refused syringe feeding again (only taking 3 mls), and his owner, my SIL, arrived to see him refusing the syringe feed. She told me not to continue if Melvin didn't want to eat and she rang the vet ... she said it was best to act quickly. Internally I was screaming "Please ... no, no!" ... but he was her piggie.

But the questions haunt me ... if the vet had given more pain relief, would he have eaten? Should I have waited and not agreed to let the local vet operate? Would he have survived a week until the Northampton vet was back from his holidays? Should I have tried to get an appt to take him as an emergency on the Monday after his dental op to the Northampton vet? But SIL was reluctant for me to take him to Northampton (after already paying for the local vet's GA dental op), and wouldn't have been able to travel there herself for any repeat appts. I am unwell myself, receiving treatment for a mental health condition and due to go into hospital for a stay of several months soon ... when this happens the piggies were due to return to my SIL's care once again, so their long-term care was her decision. But I'm left feeling like I took his life when there was a chance he could have recovered ... I'd grown to love his cheeky character so much ... and that's such an awful thought to endure.

 

[eileen]

you did everything humanly possible to get the best care.its a real shame some vets will not express there limited knowledge and suggest an alternative vet with experience.you have not failed Melvin.