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Dental - Please Advise Asap

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LB14

LB14

Junior Guinea Pig
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Good afternoon all,

I've not posted for ages, and I'm really after some advice so I know what I'm dealing with if anyone could be so kind.

About a week ago I noticed my older boy Duke, he's 3 now, had a broken bottom tooth (forgot the technical term but one of the ones you can see lol)
At first he was a bit grumpy and this is how I came to notice it, as he was a bit short tempered if you like so I gave him a thorough check over.

Kept a close eye, he was still eating, drinking and picked his mood back up and was back to normal. Today, I was pottering around getting ready to go out and noticed he was not with the others when I refilled the haybags. So I picked him out for a cuddle as I always do and every day he will sit and lick my thumb when hes sitting with me. Today no, he was quite subdued. So I put him back and carried on what I was doing.
The pig pen is a large 2 level C&C out in our hallway as we have a big hall, so the haybags etc are all downstairs, and he had taken himself upstairs and was hunched, fur ruffled, in a corner. So I took him back out and he was shivery and again not himself, felt quite deflated. Gave him another check over and the tooth has been growing back, but was an off colour and then I noticed the smell coming from his mouth as I put my nose up to his.
Called the vet, they seen him 20 mins later which was lovely. Vet checked it out and said she thinks the tooth is dead and there are a few options but she is aware he is showing signs of being quite unwell.
We chat about how he has been and she asks to admit him for the day to syringe feed and give him gut stimulants as I'm concerned about how he hid away from the hay when hes usually first one in there.

I've to pick him up at 5:30pm and tomorrow to attend their other branch, for specific dental xrays (their xray machine is being repaired today) and the possibility of them operating to extract.


HOWEVER! She did mention that there is an increased risk of damaging their jaw whilst doing these extractions?! And that she is keen for him to see one of their more experienced cavy vets for this xray etc.

Can I just ask, what can I expect? I know we have dental vets and members here but I'm just a bit blasted with info and need someone to explain it in a way that wont bloody scare me about letting him have an op.

If you got this far, thank you :(
 
I'm not very knowlegeable on teeth, so will tag @furryfriends (TEAS) again. I know she has a lot of poorly residents at the moment though so may not be on.
 
There is a small risk with extraction but I have not seen a jaw break from extraction of the incisors personally. If done carefully it should be ok. Why did they want to take it out? I have a sow who's bottom incisor is dead and not growing anymore, in fact two of her four incisors are abnormal but she eats well and I'm leaving her be to only occasional blurring back of one tooth when needed.

An experienced vet shouldn't many problems, there is a risk of breaking the tooth when extracting, in this case the tooth will simply grow back and have to be extracted again at a later date. The surgery itself isn't nice but once it's done it's final and the teeth will not grow at all if all the roots have been taken. The main problem with Guinea pig incisors is that they curve around in the jaw and are tricky to extract (certainly not impossible though). If your taking one incisor then often the opposite will need to be taken too but if there is one simply dead I would leave it be for the opposite tooth to wear down on. I do however agree that it would be beneficial to have X-rays of his skull and tooth roots to rule out further ongoing issues. All dental problems should have an X-ray or ct scan to see further into the roots to check for infection or overgrowth. As for aneathesia wise, he will likely be groggy for a couple of days post op but providing he receives good post op care, pain relief and syringe feeding then anaesthetics are a lower risk than many people worry about. Make sure that he receives plenty of food and fluids running up to the day to make sure he's as stable as possible before they put him under.

I hope that's not too much information. If you have any other questions let me know. I'm on my lunch break so running out of time to write much more.

Hope all goes ok with him.

x
 
We deal with dental issues on a daily basis and have very recently had a case very similar to yours, that was dealt with quickly and easily under the care of a vet who is extremely knowledgeable and experienced in the field of guinea pig dentistry. You really need a vet who has the knowledge to accurately determine whether extraction is absolutely necessary for the wellbeing of the guinea pig or if regular burring would be more appropriate.

If you would like to discuss this further, please drop me a message, and we can have a chat on the phone.
 
Thank you for the replies. The vet does want to do specific dental xray as opposed to a generic "normal" xray, and is spending the day syringe feeding him and coaxing him to eat as they dont want to have to do an op while he is not eating and that for now is their main priority. To build his strength up and have him prepared incase they do choose to op.

She said the tooth to her looks dead, and there IS a foul smell coming from his breath, reminds me of the smell you get off human breath that has badly looked after and infected teeth if that makes sense? and it is also very dark and yellow in colour compared to his other teeth. His teeth have been perfectly healthy up until this point.
But she wants the xray first so they know what they are dealing with. She also did say yes that sometimes with the way they grow, they might not get the whole tooth and may need to remove the rest further down the line.

I guess I'm in a panic as I don't like the guinea pigs having ops and I've never seen him refuse food before, he was just very shaky and floppy earlier :( And with the comment of broken jaw thrown in I've gotten myself a bit worried about it all.
 
Sorry I can't offer much advice, but I can offer support- your piggy is in safe hands now. Ops are scary for everyone, but you'll be okay.
furryfriends (TEAS) of course, offers good advice- the experience of the vet is very important.
Best of luck to you and Duke, sorry I can't be much help, just wanted to comfort you:nod:
 
TheCavySlave said:
Sorry I can't offer much advice, but I can offer support- your piggy is in safe hands now. Ops are scary for everyone, but you'll be okay.
furryfriends (TEAS) of course, offers good advice- the experience of the vet is very important.
Best of luck to you and Duke, sorry I can't be much help, just wanted to comfort you:nod:
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Thank you, that is really kind :)
 
You have been given great advice, the only thing i can add is the possibility of an abcess related to the tooth since there is such a foul smell, but they will be able to have a good feel around when they are checking that tooth anyway.

Good luck x
 
Update.

Picked Duke up at half 5, vet agreed he is definitely not eating. She has tried with all his favourites today - I gave a small tub of peppers, radish and parsley, his 3 fave, along with kale and hay & nuggets. He wouldnt eat a bite. So she has been syringe feeding him hourly to try get as much food lining his stomach as possible to prevent gut statis. Has also started him on meds to prevent this and pain relief too. She said she noticed he was flinching if the syringe touched near his tooth so the plan is tomorrow morning, to have him in their main branch for 9:30, update on how I've gotten on overnight with feeding and how he is. Then leave him there for xrays and the possible dental depending what they find. But the agreement is we need to find out what is causing this and solve the problem for him.
 
I see a little better now what the problem may be, the smell and discolouration indicates a potential infection, which will hopefully show up on X-ray if it is. CT would be better in this case to co epletly rule it out though. I hope you get to the bottom of it, keeping fingers cross for you little one. Hope you manage the syringe feeds.

x
 
Thank you. I've got experience in syringe feeding and giving medicines so I'm not worried and from what I was told, he was taking the syringe food - his chin is proof of this lol. So fingers crossed we have him on the road to recovery tomorrow.
 
I have no experience with teeth but if an abcess (smelly) is not shown up with the scans- could it be possible he has oral thrush if his breath smells like damp dishcloth?
(is this what u meant by infection @Abi_nurse ?)

This may be in addition to dental problems so please get your vet to check.

I think @helen105281 has had experience of guineas with oral thrush before &may be able to give u some more advice than am able to.

Good luck, healing vibes &speedy recovery to your little one :wub:

Xx
 
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GPTV said:
I have no experience with teeth but if an abcess (smelly) is not shown up with the scans- could it be possible he has oral thrush if his breath smells like damp dishcloth?
(is this what you meant by infection @Abi_nurse ?)

This may be in addition to dental problems so please get your vet to check.

I think @helen105281 has had experience of guineas with oral thrush before &may be able to give you some more advice than am able to.

Good luck, healing vibes &speedy recovery to your little one :wub:

Xx
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Oral thrush would smell like damp dishcloths and is usually treated with an anti fungal medication like Itrafungol or Nystatin.
 
Morning all.

So I syringe fed as requested, and gave him oral meds in the form of Zantac, and Cisapride as prescribed.

He tried to eat the syringe feed as best he could but most ended up on his chin and on me lol. The meds he gulped down. Tried him with some regular food, he sat attempting to eat a little parsley leaf and this showed to me just how bad he is. Parsley is his favourite and he could only nibble on it. He tried nibbling on hay but again couldnt really do it. So overnight he had a cosy bed and I put a fleece over the top like a canopy to give him a safe place and his pal Gus lay infront of it guarding him as he does.

Vet 9:30am, thorough check, diagnosed definite gut stasis as there was just no poo, no sounds, nothing. SO he has been re-admitted, the vet pretty much said we're caught between a rock and hard place for now as they are not comfortable operating while he has gut statis as the GA causes that at the best of times, however, unless we can get his guts moving, the op might be the only solution. She has said she will syringe feed him again today, inject him with pain relief and see how we go. She asked permission also to do a small xray of his mouth to send to the dental specialists in the country to ask the advice of if they think that a) it could just be a part decayed tooth that needs dealt with, b) the whole tooth needs to come out or c) any other issues.

So I have to call at lunch to see how he is from the xray, and to arrange to pick up later with a more up to date plan. But so far the plan is if we can get his guts moving great, we xray and potentially op tomorrow, if we can't we might need to bite the bullet and op tomorrow anyway.
 
LB14 said:
Morning all.

So I syringe fed as requested, and gave him oral meds in the form of Zantac, and Cisapride as prescribed.

He tried to eat the syringe feed as best he could but most ended up on his chin and on me lol. The meds he gulped down. Tried him with some regular food, he sat attempting to eat a little parsley leaf and this showed to me just how bad he is. Parsley is his favourite and he could only nibble on it. He tried nibbling on hay but again couldnt really do it. So overnight he had a cosy bed and I put a fleece over the top like a canopy to give him a safe place and his pal Gus lay infront of it guarding him as he does.

Vet 9:30am, thorough check, diagnosed definite gut stasis as there was just no poo, no sounds, nothing. SO he has been re-admitted, the vet pretty much said we're caught between a rock and hard place for now as they are not comfortable operating while he has gut statis as the GA causes that at the best of times, however, unless we can get his guts moving, the op might be the only solution. She has said she will syringe feed him again today, inject him with pain relief and see how we go. She asked permission also to do a small xray of his mouth to send to the dental specialists in the country to ask the advice of if they think that a) it could just be a part decayed tooth that needs dealt with, b) the whole tooth needs to come out or c) any other issues.

So I have to call at lunch to see how he is from the xray, and to arrange to pick up later with a more up to date plan. But so far the plan is if we can get his guts moving great, we xray and potentially op tomorrow, if we can't we might need to bite the bullet and op tomorrow anyway.
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Sorry to hear he developed gut statis.. My sow Crunchie developed this with dental issues too but we managed to get things moving again with zantac/ranitidine every 8 hours and metacloprimide every 12 hours, as well as "trickle feeding" which i think made the world of difference.

I actually stopped syringe feeding and gave her a pinch of grass every half hour.. This was because any food that went in was just sitting in her stomach so it wasnt safe to keep pushing her.

He is definately in the best place to get this sorted.

Fingers crossed for him x
 
LB14 said:
Morning all.

So I syringe fed as requested, and gave him oral meds in the form of Zantac, and Cisapride as prescribed.

He tried to eat the syringe feed as best he could but most ended up on his chin and on me lol. The meds he gulped down. Tried him with some regular food, he sat attempting to eat a little parsley leaf and this showed to me just how bad he is. Parsley is his favourite and he could only nibble on it. He tried nibbling on hay but again couldnt really do it. So overnight he had a cosy bed and I put a fleece over the top like a canopy to give him a safe place and his pal Gus lay infront of it guarding him as he does.

Vet 9:30am, thorough check, diagnosed definite gut stasis as there was just no poo, no sounds, nothing. SO he has been re-admitted, the vet pretty much said we're caught between a rock and hard place for now as they are not comfortable operating while he has gut statis as the GA causes that at the best of times, however, unless we can get his guts moving, the op might be the only solution. She has said she will syringe feed him again today, inject him with pain relief and see how we go. She asked permission also to do a small xray of his mouth to send to the dental specialists in the country to ask the advice of if they think that a) it could just be a part decayed tooth that needs dealt with, b) the whole tooth needs to come out or c) any other issues.

So I have to call at lunch to see how he is from the xray, and to arrange to pick up later with a more up to date plan. But so far the plan is if we can get his guts moving great, we xray and potentially op tomorrow, if we can't we might need to bite the bullet and op tomorrow anyway.
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear he developed gut statis.. My sow Crunchie developed this with dental issues too but we managed to get things moving again with zantac/ranitidine every 8 hours and metacloprimide every 12 hours, as well as "trickle feeding" which i think made the world of difference.

I actually stopped syringe feeding and gave her a pinch of grass every half hour.. This was because any food that went in was just sitting in her stomach so it wasnt safe to keep pushing her.

He is definately in the best place to get this sorted.

Fingers crossed for him x
 
I had hoped the feeding was going to help :/ He did munch on a little parsley last night and I mean literally a little leaf, but he was trying, then I saw him try with some hay and by that I also mean literally a bit of hay. but he tried, his will is still there, and he's still clambering up to my neck to hide when I pick him up.

I'm hoping the feeding kick starts his guts again today. his weight has dropped as is expected in this kind of scenario, but although the will is there, hes tired and weak and just looking extremely sad and fed up.

I'll update when I am updated myself x
 
It's concerning that this whole situation seems to be getting over complicated. If he has had gut stasis, it will be due to the fact that he hasn't had enough food passing through his system. With the drugs and correct syringe feeding (120ml per 24 hours), his system should quickly disperse any gas and then rapidly fill up with what is being pushed through. It is worrying that he was sat in the vets yesterday, having food put in front of him that he can't eat, rather than them spending the time actually feeding him some beneficial nutrients that would help his gut.

As far as the dental issues are concerned, I think the incisor is now the least of your problems. The back teeth now sound as if they are very overgrown and are causing most, if not all of his issues. In an ideal world, you need to have an experienced dental vet look at his teeth and also have a dental done without GA, therefore removing the risk to him while he is in such a delicate state. By using conscious dentistry (and having the accurate anatomical knowledge and experience) the mouth can be accessed regularly - as often as every day, if required, to tidy up any problem areas, while the pig learns to eat for himself again. This way, the teeth aren't allowed to regrow (as they will after less than a week, while the pig isn't eating any food that will wear the teeth down) and will then prevent any new soft tissue trauma developing. As the discomfort lessens, the pig is more likely to begin eating for himself again. That is not to say that in some cases a GA might be required, but an initial 'tidy up' to remove severe spurring will kick start the road to recovery or manageability, giving immediate relief.

The incisor issue points potentially to an abscess underneath the tooth. If the tooth is dead, it will fall out naturally, and a waiting game can be played here, subject to correct diagnosis, pain management and appropriate antibiotics.

While we appreciate that you are about as far away from us here at TEAS as possible, there is currently a space available, should you wish to take up the offer. (Piggy Train is always an option) We have sixteen years' experience between us of providing supportive and post op care to dental piggies and operate the only dental sanctuary for guinea pigs, certainly in the UK, if not Europe and the wider world. We work in conjunction with Simon Maddock (and Kim Maddock), who has at least a decade of working successfully in the field of guinea pig dentistry, seeing at least 5 cases every single day. He knows what he is looking at as soon as he looks inside the pig's mouth and any course of action would be immediate, rather than having to refer to others.

Please let us know if we can be of any help to you and your piggy. :)
 
I'll try to reply as best I can to the points you've raised :)

he was syringe fed in the vets yesterday, I did bring along food on their request to try attempt him to eat, but he refused so the syringe feeding has been ongoing since yesterday morning, by the vet, syringing the recovery sachets, then followed on yesterday evening, through the night and this morning by myself. He has still not pood or been comfortable to eat.

The back teeth have been checked and all seem to be absolutely fine. The issue has come from this one tooth breaking last week for whatever reason, and then growing back as quick as they do but now its getting longer its caused him issues with eating. Excuse my ignorance in this part, but the vet was checking to see if the nerve (she did use the technical term!) was exposed which would be causing the pain?

For now, he is being syringe fed recovery food again for the day, and the xray of his teeth has been sent to the dental specialists in both Cumbernauld and I think the other location was Edinburgh. They were awaiting the xray to offer advice and assistance.

I truly do appreciate the work of TEAS, one of my rescues travelled down to you through a piggy train I organised with Stewart a while back now, his name was Dougal :) And I know just how much work you guys do and in an ideal world if I had known he would deteriorate like this, my choice would have been to drive him all the way down myself to ask for help. But as all little furries tend to do, he hid the fact he was unwell. And given he's my boy that sits with me a lot and I spend a lot of time with him, he hid it well :( It was only yesterday that I sensed something wasn't right, and I know for a fact I'd seen him eat the day before so it hit me for six when I knew he had been given the recovery pouches yesterday hourly, and through the night, and for the vet to sit for minutes this morning intently listening to his stomach, to then say his guts definitely aren't moving, is gutting :(

I'm not the best at relaying info from the vet, I try to get my head around technical terms and post what I remember on here, and it DOES sound like things are being over complicated. However, its just various scenarios being played out and the "this is what we do if x doesnt work" and "We can try this option if he doesn't respond to y".

I can only assure everyone the vet I use are definitely experienced in cavies, and one more so in the practice than the others I was told yesterday had done more extensive cavy training once she was qualified. I actually recommended them on here before to another member from the other side of Scotland as they are so trustworthy and I always have my piggies become well again if they have ever had to have a trip to them x
 
Update, he's devouring the recovery feed through syringe every hour. Still no poo and awaiting the specialist getting back to them to chat through whether they advise to pull the tooth or cut it x
 
Thought I would update. According to the vet when he was discharged, he had been eating the syringed food for them and perked up a bit. They clipped the offending tooth on the advice from the specialist, and said his guts had started making little noises which indicated we'd turned a corner.
So I was sent home with the instruction to give him his meds as stated again, and continue with the syringe feed.
I've slept all of 2 hours. I fed him last thing at night but he was trying to push it away so rather than force the issue I set alarms through the night to try hourly. 2am I got up, I've not slept since. I tried feeding, he was less than keen, so I tried slowly and dripping into the inside of his cheek and he seemed to eat that way better. Also switched to a small medical syringe rather than the feeding syringe. Took me longer but he managed that better in his mouth.

Fast forward a few hours, laying on the couch, him on a pillow with some fleeces, me on the laptop, I notice his eyes are watering? Then I pick him up and hes making chesty noises like I used to get when he had URI's (not had any for 2 years since switching to fleece). So I've sat and got him comfortable and placed a tiny drop of Olbas on my furthest away sleeve, which seemed to ease his stuffiness.
Still not passed any poo, and hasn't peed either.

Long and short is, Ive gone from happy that he was making the right progress - to massively concerned that he has been put under too much stress the last few days and is giving up the fight. We have vet at 9:20 so I just dunno what to expect now :(
 
The small syringe is better anyway, I really don't like those big syringes even though the tip is supposed to be the same size. Poor boy, the stuffiness may be related. My Barley has dental issues at the mo and is snuffly too.
 
Hi Helen, I agree with the small syringe, surely the tips arent actually the same size :O Need to go look at them now. I feel theres more control over the smaller one. And its less likely to shoot out a large amount and potentially injure him.

The vet agreed with me that being in there 2 days running and having various vets/nurses in and out feeding him, giving him meds etc and then the noises of the other animals could well be adding to the stress and so we agreed to me keeping him at home today to continue attempting syringe feeding, and getting fluids into him.
She injected painkillers, and prescribed baytril on top of his gutstasis meds, as he is sounding snuffly in his nose and chest.
She said there ARE some gut sounds, nothing like yesterday but they are not completely absent so hopefully with the calm environment of his own home and just me dealing with him, he will relax, calm down some and not feel so stressed. That said, if he is still the same later, and there is no improvement or the situation worsens, I've to go back and in the vets words "we might need to then look at bigger choices". I know what she means by that, so I hope with the calmness of the house, he comes round a bit. He's back in the pen, partitioned off so I can keep an eye for poo and so he's not overly harrassed, but so he has his own company x
 
Is he is having Baytril that can have an effect on the gut, do you have any probiotics?
 
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