Diet advice from exotics vet

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SophRuss5 said:
Diet is my biggest worry and I agree with your vet, nuggets when I think about it are a strange one. I feed mine in moderation and they get tonnes of grasses, unlimited hay and veg - mostly lettuces, kale and strawberry leaves. I am trying to get their diet correct in my mind and like you have read so much about it. In response to others where can you buy this oak lettuce? I've found sainsburys tesco and Asia are terrible for variety of lettuce, morrisons is slightly better but anything a bit different and supermarkets seem to not want to try!
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I don't know which grocers in the UK stock the oak leaf lettuce. Perhaps you could ask in a thread of your own so more UKers will see and answer. Here they are sold everywhere. I've also lived in New Zealand where they were common but there they were called hydroponic lettuce.
 
While I think that the vet is mostly right, the trouble I foresee is we can't mimic their wild diet exactly, we just don't have the same plants they would have in the wild, so we would have to substitute certain things to get all the correct vitamins and minerals. I doubt in the wild all they would eat is grasses, there would have been other plants with in reach and my old guinea pig use to be very partial to bark and small twigs, he'd eat them entirely if he could along with fallen leaves if he was in the garden.

So I'm not sure how well that diet will work, as there is inevitably going to be certain things missing that we can't provide unless we go to their native country and go foraging.

On the fruit subject I bet you they would eat fallen fruit, berries for example, and seeds from grasses etc so, again, slightly dubious. guinea pigs aren't that fussy on what they get their mouths on in my experience, so I doubt wild guinea pigs would have a really limited diet.
 
Hi, the vet didn't specify oak leaf lettuce - that's just what I googled. One of the living salads that tesco currently does looks just like it to me. He didn't mention herbs to me so I don't know sorry, he said just to focus on hay, grass, readigrass and leafy greens. He said other fruit / veg is fine in very small amounts as occasional treats, but not the bulk of their diet as I had my pigs on (used to give them pepper everyday for example).

I'm interested by people saying they give their pigs a hard veg such as carrot for their teeth (my vet said never give any root veg) - they're really not that hard! I tried to chew a piece of hay and barely made a dint, whereas I can munch through a carrot very easily ;) Hay and rough grass really are the best thing for their teeth.

My boys have been doing well on this new diet - lots of energy, lost weight slowly and now both come in just under 1000g, no bloat, no poo or urine problems, etc. Hope it keeps up!
 
The Living Salads are in ASDA and a lot of other places as well, and are indeed largely made up of oak leaf lettuce. (Website here) Machu loves 'them.
 
SpinningNickel said:
The Living Salads are in ASDA and a lot of other places as well, and are largely made up of oak leaf lettuce. (Website here) Machu loves 'them.
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What is Oak Leaf Lettuce? Is it really good for them? I've never heard of it before....
 
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Important update - please read

Well, since my last post, Burt has continued to be OK. Clive however, as some members foresaw, has developed calcium / bladder issues. We have just returned from the vet who has now advised us to cut out cabbage, cauliflower, broccolli (also to cut out some things they had every now and then including red chard, spinach and rocket). He said to just give them both lettuce only from now on (as well as their hay and readigrass). I am devastated that I may have in any way contributed to Clive's illness. He started squeaking whilst toileting on Saturday (not every time) and is going in tomorrow to be treated. It's the first time he will be away for treatment (drop off at 8, pick up at 4) and I am very anxious. Please send healing thoughts x
 
bessiehen said:
Well, since my last post, Burt has continued to be OK. Clive however, as some members foresaw, has developed calcium / bladder issues. We have just returned from the vet who has now advised us to cut out cabbage, cauliflower, broccolli (also to cut out some things they had every now and then including red chard, spinach and rocket). He said to just give them both lettuce only from now on (as well as their hay and readigrass). I am devastated that I may have in any way contributed to Clive's illness. He started squeaking whilst toileting on Saturday (not every time) and is going in tomorrow to be treated. It's the first time he will be away for treatment (drop off at 8, pick up at 4) and I am very anxious. Please send healing thoughts x
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Please don't blame yourself. Some piggies seem to be prone to bladder problems no matter what...
We are having Cookie Xrayed on Friday for stones as she has been crying when weeing and been on Septrin for nearly 4 weeks with no success, our girls have always been on a low calcium diet due to one of our first piggies having bladder problems.
Lots of love to Clive, hope all goes well, lots of healing vibes his way and hugs to you x x
 
I've had two 'bladder' piggies. One we unfortunately lost last year due to complications arising from an operation to remove a stone, and the other who has suffered from continuous bladder sludge since the beginning of the year. After my first piggy passed, I spent hours on the internet searching for foods that I could feed my remaining piggies which were low in calcium out of fear that I would contribute to further bladder problems.

I eventually turned to my exotics vet (who specialises in guinea pigs) and she explained that unfortunately some piggies will experience problems with calcium build-up (either in the form of stones or sludge) no matter what we do. They are just genetically prone to it. She said that obviously it is best to avoid giving excessive amounts of high calcium veg (kale, spinach etc.) but apart from that then I don't think there is a lot more that we can do. Please don't blame yourself.
 
Thank you for your kind and supportive comments. After a sleepless night and a teary morning, the vet has rang to say that Clive has woken up from his GA OK. He had sludge, not stones, and his bladder is slightly enlarged (so there might be more treatment necessary in the future). Tests showed no problems with his kidneys. The vet said he knows of someone in the US who has spent 3 years researching why GPs have such issues with bladders /calcium, and he is still none the wiser. Still we will be feeding both our pigs a no calcium diet. Feel like we've crossed one huge hurdle, just hope he makes a good recovery now. So glad I am on half term hols so I can look after him.
 
bessiehen said:
Thank you for your kind and supportive comments. After a sleepless night and a teary morning, the vet has rang to say that Clive has woken up from his GA OK. He had sludge, not stones, and his bladder is slightly enlarged (so there might be more treatment necessary in the future). Tests showed no problems with his kidneys. The vet said he knows of someone in the US who has spent 3 years researching why GPs have such issues with bladders /calcium, and he is still none the wiser. Still we will be feeding both our pigs a no calcium diet. Feel like we've crossed one huge hurdle, just hope he makes a good recovery now. So glad I am on half term hols so I can look after him.
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I'm very pleased to hear that it isn't a stone - that is a huge relief. My Jerry has lived with bladder sludge since January so if you have any questions, then I can do my best to help based on my experience. Jerry did require an operation in May to flush out his bladder as the sludge had reached excessive levels. He was in a lot of discomfort when weeing/pooing and there was blood in his urine most days from the sludge irritating his bladder walls. There is also the worry that sludge will form into a stone.

I wish I could say that the operation solved all his problems. It certainly helped a little, but it was by no means a cure. Jerry now has good days and bad days. Every day that he has pain-free wees and poos is a blessing! His pain is controlled with daily doses of Metacam (which also acts as an anti-inflammatory). He also has dibenyline (which is a muscle relaxant, I believe) and cystaid which helps line the bladder. He is on low calcium veg, filtered water (we live in a hard-water area), timothy hay and low calcium nuggets.

'Bladder' pigs, as all pigs with long-term problems, require a lot of effort and dedication. But with the effort they can live very happy lives. Jerry, as are all my guineas, is absolutely worth it, and despite his daily concoction of medication he popcorns more than all of my others (who are half his age!) He is such a happy pig, despite everything that he has been though and lives with. He has 3-monthly check-ups and when it gets to the stage that he has more bad days than good, then he will go on to an additional, or stronger painkiller. Tramadol seems to work well, I've heard.

Has the vet given any indication yet on how to proceed in the long-term?

Sending lots of healing vibes! :)
 
Thank you JerryBelly. I should have said, Clive has had the sludge flushed out of his bladder today (the vet said if they saw anything in the x ray they would act there and then). He is being picked up by my husband at 6pm tonight so the nurse will go through everything with him then. He is being prescribed anti-inflammatories and something else I can't remember and may need antibiotics. I think I will most definitely be asking you for more help as this is my first experience of this! (though Clive has been ill before so at least I know about syringe feeding, etc.) Like you say, they are so worth it - I love Clive sooo much. Apart from the squeaking you would have thought there was nothing wrong with him, he was still jumping on his hammock, tipping up his bed and popcorning away, even yesterday. The vet mentioned that some pigs have to be seen every 3 months but I think as this is the first instance we will just be 'watching and waiting'. I just can't wait til he is home :)
 
Sorry, I should have thought that that is usually the case. The GA can prove such a strain on them that it's better to deal with the issue at the same time, rather than putting them under it again.

The antibiotics will be precautionary to avoid an infection (Baytril, I suspect). Then he'll have the usual post-op gut stimulant and painkillers. I'm sure the vet will give you all the post-op advice you need if you don't have any experience with this (keeping him warm, dealing with the wound etc. etc.) But if there is anything that you're unsure of then some of our very experienced members will no doubt be able to answer any questions.

I think it will very much be 'wait and see' at this stage. Hopefully the operation has removed all of the sludge and will relieve his discomfort. Fingers crossed for your little man.
 
Pleased that no stones were found and kidney function is good, wishing Clive. a speedy recovery. X x
 
bessiehen said:
Thank you for your kind and supportive comments. After a sleepless night and a teary morning, the vet has rang to say that Clive has woken up from his GA OK. He had sludge, not stones, and his bladder is slightly enlarged (so there might be more treatment necessary in the future). Tests showed no problems with his kidneys. The vet said he knows of someone in the US who has spent 3 years researching why GPs have such issues with bladders /calcium, and he is still none the wiser. Still we will be feeding both our pigs a no calcium diet. Feel like we've crossed one huge hurdle, just hope he makes a good recovery now. So glad I am on half term hols so I can look after him.
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Guineas need Calcium for their constantly growing teeth etc. A no calcium (which is unachievable) diet is very dangerous and you will likely end up with dental issues. There is stuff about this including xrays, on Guinea Lynx somewhere but I haven't used it for years so do not have a link to hand.

The best you can do for your guinea is give a correctly Ca:Ph balanced diet (basically more leafy greens than fruits n roots which are Ph high), to do with metabolism. This can only give your guinea the best chance, many guineas inherit stone n sludge issues. Water is important to flush the gravel etc through the bladder. The bladder can hold about 10ml so give 15mls of water at a time for a complete flush (by syringe) if the are prone to sludge. This done about 3 times daily is the best thing you can do particularly if its the thing you do.

http://www.guineapigwelfare.org.uk/ratewatchers/


http://www.guineapigwelfare.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/ratewatchers-rainbow-dietgroups.pdf This PDF needs the website updating to Guinea Pig Welfare but the info is still correct :)

And no I haven't read the whole thread, apologies if I have repeated anything but this caught my eye :)
 
correction

KarenGPW said:
Guineas need Calcium for their constantly growing teeth etc. A no calcium (which is unachievable) diet is very dangerous and you will likely end up with dental issues. There is stuff about this including xrays, on Guinea Lynx somewhere but I haven't used it for years so do not have a link to hand.

The best you can do for your guinea is give a correctly Ca:Ph balanced diet (basically more leafy greens than fruits n roots which are Ph high), to do with metabolism. This can only give your guinea the best chance, many guineas inherit stone n sludge issues. Water is important to flush the gravel etc through the bladder. The bladder can hold about 10ml so give 15mls of water at a time for a complete flush (by syringe) if the are prone to sludge. This done about 3 times daily is the best thing you can do particularly if its the thing you do.

http://www.guineapigwelfare.org.uk/ratewatchers/


http://www.guineapigwelfare.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/ratewatchers-rainbow-dietgroups.pdf This PDF needs the website updating to Guinea Pig Welfare but the info is still correct :)

And no I haven't read the whole thread, apologies if I have repeated anything but this caught my eye :)
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Sorry, I meant to write low calcium, not no calcium. Haven't had a lot of sleep! Thanks.
 
Ha ha! No probs! But its the ratio of calcium to phosphorus in the diet that thats important not low calcium. Calcium foods are much lighter than the phosphorus so its very hard to feed a calcium high diet. I did a little survey of diets a few years ago, about 30 guineas, and every diet was phosphorus high which is wrong :( Its about ratios not so much amount of calcium.
 
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