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Difficult decision - advice needed

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BigTigPig

Hi all,

Winnie is nearly 6 years old. She has not been eating "as much" for a while now but was still eating a fair amount so we put it down to her getting on a bit. However last weekend we realised she had really slowed up her eating and was hardly eating anything at all and neither was she drinking. A quick look in her mouth showed that her teeth had become overgrown so we took her to the vet. As the back ones were also overgrown a GA was needed to trim them (we decided to take the risk as her dying under the anaesthetic would be similar to being PTS). Miraculously however she pulled through the operation and the following night and began eating small amounts again.

However over the course of this week she is still hardly eating anything. If I give her a quarter of a tomato or a piece of melon etc she'll scoop the flesh out but that's it. She's not eating her hay or muesli. I've been giving her some critical care. Before all this she weighed approx 1kg, last week she had dropped to 740g and she's now down to 620g which is half her weight when she was in her prime. I'm starting to think that the time may have come and that it would be kinder to have her PTS now than keep her going when she has little realistic chance of getting better.

I suppose I'm just after an outside view. My OH thinks I'm being too hasty. She's not in any obvious pain but I think her mouth my be giving her discomfort. I've never had to have a pig PTS before they have always just gone by themselves so this is not a dilemma I've faced before now.

Thanks for any thoughts.

BTP
 
Hi there

Sorry to hear that your piggie is not herlf but I would tend to agree with your OH - dont make any decisions just yet as there are loads of knowledgable peeps on here and they will be along shortly to give excellent advice as there are older pigs like yours on here as well....well the piggies owners are on here not the piggies themselves :)

Glad she came through tooth op ok - is she peeing and pooping still?how active is she?
 
Thanks.

No I haven't made a definite decision yet but my plan is that if she hasn't improved by Monday I'll take her to the vet and see what they think. I think I'm just trying to get it in my head that this *may* be what is best for her. I'm not going to march in and ask them to put her down, if there is something else we can try for her that's great but her age, bodyweight and reluctance to eat are against her :-(

There's slight damp patches and the odd small poop but not much. She spends most of her time sat in the corner of her bedroom until a piece of cucumber or similar is offered. Then she'll nibble that for a few minutes before returning to her corner..
 
I wonder if it may be worth worming her - one of our boys Jules was losing weight gradually a couple weeks back and (dare I say it) I thought it was the end for him :( Laura CCC4 on here suggested it and it realli did work as he gradually put the weight back on and became more interested in food again - we were prescribed Xeno450 by the vet and you put it from their neck right down their spine and it soaks in - perhaps ask the vets about this first before trying it and see what everytone else comes back with on here x
 
After dental work it can take a while for a piggie to start eating properly again. Obviously until she does then her teeth will overgrow again. Is your vet able to do a small amount of work on her teeth with her conscious? I am currently caring for three dental piggies. One of my own and two long term boarders and they all need a small amount of work on their teeth weekly, which takes about five minutes and is done conscious.

I think a lot depends on whether her dental problem can be managed until she can eat better for herself. Are you syringe feeding her as she isn't managing to eat much?
 
Does she not want to eat, or is she physically unable?

Is she still showing interest in food, from your first you stated she is eating just not a huge amount. Which would indicate to me there is still a problem.

Debbie (furryfriends) has many pigs with teeth problems hopefully she will be on soon.

Were abouts are you?

(Debbie is here :)))
 
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Hi

I'm sorry to hear about your piggie. I had a dilemma last week about one of my girls, the vet wanted to operate there and then and told me she'd die if I didn't go ahead with it. I came on here for advice and got lots of help and advice on what to do. I didn't go ahead with the operation and she is still hopping about, eating etc. Sometimes it is best to see how things go before you make a decision, she could still be getting over her dental work maybe?

Hope things go ok for you xx
 
Often if animals have worms then they still have a big appetite, but sometimes they can feel sick from the worms and stop eating, so that is a possibility.

All I can think of to advise you is to chop her food up really small, offer her dark green lettuces or grass and her favourite foods, and see if she'll eat them.

I hope someone comes along here soon and can advise you.

If she doesn't get better and isn't able to eat anymore, then maybe it would be best to get her pts, but maybe the vet can help in some way.

I hope she gets better soon though. It must be horrible for you to see her suffer and lose weight like that.
 
Hi BTP, sorry to hear about Winnie. I am familiar with what you describe - age, bodyweight and reluctance to eat all combine to give a fairly despairing picture, but my view and experience is not to give up on them if they are otherwise happy in themselves. Sitting in the corner doesn't sound great, but loneliness and lack of food will be contributing to a low mood - it's worth making sure you cover all aspects that you can, that could be affecting her mood. If she lives alone, do you have any other pigs who you can house with, or even just next-door, to her?

Upping the syringe-feeds will help with weight and mood, I have two pigs here of the same sort of weight due to dental problems, both 4-5 years old, they are needing an absolute minimum of 60-90ml food per day to maintain and very slowly regain their weight.

Of course you know Winnie best, and you will know when the time is "right" to let her go - you can't mistake or question the feeling you experience. Don't let the vet talk you into having her PTS if you are in any doubt.

Whereabouts are you?
 
Do you think that she is in pain, if so you could try giving her some calpol to see if that helps, not sure on the dosage but some one on here may be able to tell you that. Also the vet may be able to give her an injection of vitamin B to kick start her appetite again, which she needs to do quickly as their digestive systems start to shut down when they stop eating. Sounds as if the GA may have knocked her about poor little soul. Keep trying her with small amounts of her favourite nibbles and maybe syringe her some mashed up pellets too, Even try fresh grass and a few dandelions. Hope she starts feeling better soon. x>>
 
Yep she is still eating a bit but only soft things which would make sense. Her front teeth were not too bad but the back ones were growing into the side of her mouth so I think she must still be quite sore. I've been syringing her critical care too which she isn't too chuffed about. Just sent OH out to the garden for grass and dandelions, she's tucking in to them.

She lives alone but we have Tigger and Topsy in the next hutch, trouble is she and Tigger have never got along and bite each other. I will let her see Topsy later though.

The vet said she could do her front teeth with her conscious but not the back ones and it's the back ones which are really the problem. Is this true?

We are in Hertfordshire.

Thx
BTP
 
And it's not just about how much, but frequency too - a pig totally reliant on syringe-feeding should be fed every 3-4 hours at least, preferably every 2-3 hours.

ETA - Would you be able to travel to have her teeth treated? Cambridge Cavy Trust is near Huntingdon and can do back teeth without anaesthetic. Or there is Vets & Pets in Broxbourne, Herts, who are very good with guineas.
 
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I'm sorry that your piggy is unwell.

The thing to discuss with your vet is her outlook. If she simply has a couple of sharp edges on basically good and straight molars then taking them iff may be worthwhile. But if her teeth are misaligned then they will simply grow back into her mouth and require treatment again putting her back through the pain and recovery.

One of the problems with molars is that they can also misgrow down into the jaw causing a lot of pain. An x-Ray will show if this is happening but will require a GA.

Syringe feeding is a good approach post surgery but constantly growing rodent teeth need coarse food to wear down correctly and so it isn't an option long term. It can just compound the problem.

Sorry I cannot offer any solutions - it's a tough decision that only you can make with the advice of your vet.
 
BigTigPig said:
Yep she is still eating a bit but only soft things which would make sense. Her front teeth were not too bad but the back ones were growing into the side of her mouth so I think she must still be quite sore. I've been syringing her critical care too which she isn't too chuffed about. Just sent OH out to the garden for grass and dandelions, she's tucking in to them.

She lives alone but we have Tigger and Topsy in the next hutch, trouble is she and Tigger have never got along and bite each other. I will let her see Topsy later though.

The vet said she could do her front teeth with her conscious but not the back ones and it's the back ones which are really the problem. Is this true?

We are in Hertfordshire.

Thx
BTP
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Aww glad to hear that she is tucking into the fresh grass and dandelions.
 
paulag said:
I'm sorry that your piggy is unwell.

The thing to discuss with your vet is her outlook. If she simply has a couple of sharp edges on basically good and straight molars then taking them iff may be worthwhile. But if her teeth are misaligned then they will simply grow back into her mouth and require treatment again putting her back through the pain and recovery.

One of the problems with molars is that they can also misgrow down into the jaw causing a lot of pain. An x-Ray will show if this is happening but will require a GA.

Syringe feeding is a good approach post surgery but constantly growing rodent teeth need coarse food to wear down correctly and so it isn't an option long term. It can just compound the problem.

Sorry I cannot offer any solutions - it's a tough decision that only you can make with the advice of your vet.
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Obviously it is better for the piggie to be eating grasses and other course food, but it is still very important to ensure that they are getting sufficient nutrition whilst they are learning to eat properly again. Therefore syringe feeding can still play a very big part in the diet of a pig following dental work. It's important to get the balance right, and whilst they are at this stage, it is also important to get the teeth checked regularly. I have very successfully rehabilitated piggies with severe dental problems but in all cases I have needed to give syringe food on a decreasing scale for a few weeks and sometimes months. I fully syringe fed one piggie for over five months and she still went on to eat for herself. The time it takes can vary so much.
 
One of the major problems with this kind of situation is having someone - vet or rodentologist - who can do all necessary dental work regularly without anaesthetic while the pig is reliant on syringe-feeds. There are serious holes in the map with regards to this.

Debbie is lucky to have Simon who is skilled in piggie dentistry. I have Vedra close by. We both help those pigs who do need syringe-feeding but neither of us could do it without having that person who can do the dental work regularly without anaesthetic.
 
I'm going to have to disagree with this. Syringe feeding is a short term supportive measure and carries its own risks, particularly potential aspiration and fatty liver due to an overly nutrient dense diet

It is also unfair to say that severe dental problems are always fixable - that needs assessing by a suitably experienced vet.

Paula
 
paulag said:
I'm going to have to disagree with this. Syringe feeding is a short term supportive measure and carries its own risks, particularly potential aspiration and fatty liver due to an overly nutrient dense diet

It is also unfair to say that severe dental problems are always fixable - that needs assessing by a suitably experienced vet.

Paula
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I didn't say they are always fixable. In fact I don't believe they are ever fixable as such. I believe that with a good vet/rodentologist, a determined piggie and an owner/carer who is totally committed, then dental problems can be managed.
 
Hi, sorry to hear about your piggy. This is familiar to me. Plz be sure your piggy gets syringe fed vitamin C daily. When I went through this with my piggy, she enjoyed extra time on my lap to enhance her mood and spirits.
 
furryfriends said:
I didn't say they are always fixable. In fact I don't believe they are ever fixable as such. I believe that with a good vet/rodentologist, a determined piggie and an owner/carer who is totally committed, then dental problems can be managed.
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I would have to agree with this. I am lucky to share the same vet as Debbie who helped G have a futher six months of quality life. (He had umpteen other problems worse than his teeth). G went to my original vet who treated him twice under GA - for which there is no need! - and who then promptly told me that G should be PTS as there was no hope! I switched over to Simon who is wonderful and very skilled when dealing with piggies. To keep G with us and comfortable, it took weekly visits to the vet initially, which over time reduced to once every three weeks. G never got back to a normal diet but ended up on a combination of soggy nuggets or oats or weetabix with added science recovery, vitamin c and probiotic. He also had some soft fruit and vegetables.

I think it is important to find a suitably qualified vet with vast knowledge when it comes to dentistry. At the end of G's life, his teeth had improved greatly and were probably his best feature out of everything that had gone wrong...! It takes huge dedication and time to make sure the piggy isn't in pain (Metacam is wonderful!) and is eating enough but the end reward is worth it. :)
 
Just to update...

It was if Winnie read this thread for she suddenly started eating fairly well again by herself on Sunday. We are still keeping an eye on her or course but she is eating a wide variety of things and has been seen drinking of her own accord too which is good.
 
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