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Euthanasia: When is it “time”?

alexr

Teenage Guinea Pig
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Hi All,

I’m facing a very difficult decision. In all my years of guinea pig ownership, I’ve been very fortunate in that I’ve never had to have a piggy PTS. One was due to be put down but died just prior to the appointment.

This post is about my darling old boy Hamish who came to me from a rescue 3 years ago. He is supposedly 5.5yrs old but myself and 3 vets all suspect he is much older - probably more like 7 or 8.

I have a very special bond with Hamish and he is a wonderful friend and grandpa figure to all my other boars. I have some singles and he loves spending time with them all each day. He is especially close to his “room mate” Herbie and also to his neighbour Rupert.

Hamish seems to try to hide his frailty to his friends but, unusually, Herbie wants to sit next to him all the time and Rupert seems to be looking sad and keeping a constant watch next door. Hamish seems to reveal his weakness to me more when we are on our own. I suppose he doesn’t want to give up his “leader” status to them just yet.

Hamish used to be a big 1.3kg piggy but has lost a lot of weight down to 1kg-1.1kg due to dental issues. Simon Maddock in Northampton felt the weight loss wasn’t a huge concern if he is still eating as he has bad arthritis in his back legs and being lighter would ease the pressure. He is on Loxicom 0.35ml twice per day and apparently there is not much room for manoeuvre. He has been managing well for several months.

However, in recent weeks, I have noticed a big deterioration in his mobility. He hobbles about and often falls over. He is incredibly bony. However, he is very determined and, once he gets going, he tries to be very active with his friends. He most certainly doesn’t want to reveal his decline to them it seems.

He is still eating as normal. However, his weight has dropped rapidly in the last week from 1.1kg to 920g - a huge alarm bell. He seemed very unwell last night. Very lethargic and exaggerated breathing. I started him on critical care and he really didn’t seem to want it but I force fed him. He then just wanted to lay on my shoulder for a long time with his head buried. I thought it might be game over.

He seemed to be a bit brighter today and I tried to book him in with Simon but he is away on holiday and so is my vet friend. Instead, I took him to see another local vet who we have seen before.

He did not feel the outlook is good and thinks it is unfair to force critical care upon him when the prognosis is not positive. He thinks I may have to make the decision to “offer him the kindest gift” very soon if quality of life is not evident. He says there is a lot of muscle decline in his hind legs and is very frail. He said his teeth are ok.

Hamish is still keen to eat food and I gave him all his favourites tonight but he hasn’t eaten much. He still seems very keen to romp around with his friends so I do see some quality of life there.

However, the vet said he feels the day will come very soon when I may need to step in with the very hard decision. We agreed that I would try to really spoil him over the weekend with time with his friends and all his favourite treats.

How will I know when the day has arrived? The vet thinks it may need to be pretty soon. Will it be when he doesn’t want food and can’t walk? I just don’t know. The time doesn’t feel right just yet.

I am hoping to speak to my vet friend when she returns from her hols tomorrow for a second opinion.

I was just wanting to ask the forum if you have any tips for knowing when it’s the right time to help Hamish over the bridge? I would much prefer to find him in his forever sleep but I will do what’s right for him and certainly don’t want him to suffer.

I take the loss of my special piggies very badly and suffer from severe depression. I need to know that I have done absolutely everything for Hamish before I am ready to face the guilt of “playing God” to end his life and never knowing if it was the right time.

Although I’ve seen the vet we saw today before and he’s normally spot-on about things, I’d have accepted the news better from Simon or from our vet friend Kate.

I just don’t know. Sorry for rambling, I just felt the need to get it off my chest to people who understand.

Alex x
 
I am in the same situation as you. Wiebke has assured me that i will know, and i think i will. My piggy has a problem with his liver (exactly what isn't known as i did not proceed with further testing given his age) and he is losing weight too. In fact, he is quite a bit less than your piggy at only 685g

But he is eating and moving about, making sounds (happy ones!) He is on loxicom for arthritis too.

The vet told me that, when the end is near, he will stop eating and gut stasis is painful. I must bring him to be euthanased if and when that happens.

Before then, i think if i see him stationed in a corner, not moving, not eating then that will be the time. We had one day like that last week though and his eyes almost looked sunken in. Then, overnight, he just imoroved and i was delighted to see him eating again and his eyes all bright again. I did step in with critical care that day but i have decided not to again.

Weibke gave the advice not to syringe CC when the diagnosis is terminal as it is with my Benson. Pop it on a spoon or in a bowl so he can choose to take it but don't force it.

I think that is good advice.

I think we will both know when the time has come. Like you though, this is my first experience of this situation so it's not easy.

I'm sure weibke will respond with her own advice specific for your situation and it will be helpful for you as it was for me but, given the time of night, i just chipped in there in case you are awake worrying and no one replies for many hours.

I hope at least it helps to know there is someone else here in a very similar position.

Take care
 
I am in the same situation as you. Wiebke has assured me that i will know, and i think i will. My piggy has a problem with his liver (exactly what isn't known as i did not proceed with further testing given his age) and he is losing weight too. In fact, he is quite a bit less than your piggy at only 685g

But he is eating and moving about, making sounds (happy ones!) He is on loxicom for arthritis too.

The vet told me that, when the end is near, he will stop eating and gut stasis is painful. I must bring him to be euthanased if and when that happens.

Before then, i think if i see him stationed in a corner, not moving, not eating then that will be the time. We had one day like that last week though and his eyes almost looked sunken in. Then, overnight, he just imoroved and i was delighted to see him eating again and his eyes all bright again. I did step in with critical care that day but i have decided not to again.

Weibke gave the advice not to syringe CC when the diagnosis is terminal as it is with my Benson. Pop it on a spoon or in a bowl so he can choose to take it but don't force it.

I think that is good advice.

I think we will both know when the time has come. Like you though, this is my first experience of this situation so it's not easy.

I'm sure weibke will respond with her own advice specific for your situation and it will be helpful for you as it was for me but, given the time of night, i just chipped in there in case you are awake worrying and no one replies for many hours.

I hope at least it helps to know there is someone else here in a very similar position.

Take care

Thank you so much for your reply and your support - it means a lot. I stayed up all last night with Hamish so my sleep pattern is a bit out of synch. I didn’t expect a reply tonight but I’m very glad you were able to answer.

I’m so sorry to hear you are also in the same position. It’s a horrible thing to go through with all the uncertainty - especially when feeling helpless. There have been quite a few times I have thought Hamish has been about to leave us but he’s a real fighter and has rallied round.

However, I have noticed a steady decline and, in the last couple of days, a sudden decline. I do think we are coming to the end of his life this time.

I also acknowledge this from the behaviour of the other pigs. They are unusually quiet, down and watchful of Hamish. Herbie won’t leave his side and he’s not normally “allowed” to sit so close. When we got back from the vets, Hamish buried himself under some hay in the corner. Herbie sat staring at him for a long time with all the piggies looking on from their cages. It’s so heartbreaking to see. I’m so worried how they’ll cope without Hamish as they all love him and rely on him for company.

Thank you for the tip about the critical care. I don’t want to force it into him but offering on a spoon or bowl is a nice idea. At least I’ll feel I’m doing something.

I’m hoping I can speak to my vet friend tomorrow as she’ll be back from her hols. I’ve been looking after her piggies whilst she’s been away but I didn’t want to bother her about Hamish. Unfortunately, we don’t get to see her as our vet now as she locums all over the country. But, as she has been Hamish’s longstanding vet, I think she’ll offer me her opinion and advice. I’m kind of hoping she might even offer to help Hamish over the bridge when the time comes but I’m not sure if that’s possible or professionally ethical. I know I’ll have a hard time avoiding a meltdown so having a friend do it would be comforting. I won’t put her in the awkward position of asking her but, if she offers, that would be reassuring to know we have that option.

I will be thinking of you and your piggy . We do so much to try and help them don’t we and it’s such a difficult time to go through. I agree with you that having tests at this stage is unnecessary stress for them. I guess all we can do is remember the happy time we’ve had with our beloved pets and ensure their remaining days are as fulfilling as possible.

I think we’re in for a good weekend of sunshine so Hamish will be doing his favourite thing of pottering around our garden under supervision with his pals in turn. If I take a slightly romanticised view, I’d love to just find him asleep under his favourite tree or find him in his forever sleep in his cage after a lovely day in the garden. Whatever happens, hopefully the last days are full of joy for him. He has led a life of luxury with me and I’m pretty sure he must have had a happy home prior to going to the rescue as he was exceptionally friendly, cuddly and excited by human company from day one.

Take care and thank you once again x
 
I am so sorry 💔. The L.A. Guinea Pig rescue uses CBD oil for her elderly piggies. You can get it on Amazon. It is a gel pen. Prayers for strength during this time. It's so hard to make these decisions.
 
I am so sorry 💔. The L.A. Guinea Pig rescue uses CBD oil for her elderly piggies. You can get it on Amazon. It is a gel pen. Prayers for strength during this time. It's so hard to make these decisions.
Thank you for your prayers. I’m certainly going to need some strength from somewhere. I hadn’t heard about the use of CBD in piggies. Very interesting 🤔 I’ll read some research about it but it’s probably a bit late. X
 
Sorry to hear about this.

I am a bit selfish and I want my beloved pets with me to live out their lives and many have died of old age. I want to call @David Piggie Lover to help you in this difficult time. I feel he can share his story.
I really don’t want to have to intervene but I will make that decision if I feel it’s best for him. He will be dying of old age rather than a disease as far as we know. I’d like to think he’ll pass away naturally but we’ll have to see.
I have six piggies currently and have had 11 previously. All my previous piggies died at home - many with me there holding them. I’d like to be there for Hamish as I feel it offers the piggy comfort but also, selfishly, seeing a piggy pass away rather than finding them asleep helps me come to terms with things too. If I see they pass quickly and with minimum distress and then see them at peace, there’s a finality to it. When I’ve found piggies asleep it’s often come out of the blue so I’m always full of wondering about how and why it happened.
 
Running a sanctuary like TEAS, means I have had to make that decision a number of times. Before anyone thinks that it's not the same as they are not 'my pets' then please think again. I invest my life in these little ones and it is just as heartbreaking when the time comes.

We have a strict ethos a TEAS which is 'to extend good quality life, but never to prolong suffering'. I assess each situation individually. I ask myself the questions, 'do they have a life worth living?' Can they display normal species specific behaviour, for a piggy of their age'?

There have been times where I have worried that I will let my heart rule my head, but when that time has come, I have known. When the spark has gone, then it's time to say goodbye.
 
You will know in your heart when the time is there to say goodbye, believe me! The piggies will tell you or often take the agonising decision out of your hands anyway and you'll just do what is right at that time.

But it is perfectly normal to worry about it when you are coming close to that time as you want to get it right while at the same time you dread it... :(

You may find the advice in these two guide here helpful:
Emergency and Bridging Care until a Vet Appointment
Human Bereavement - Grieving, coping tips and support links for guinea pig owners and their children
 
It’s no bad thing to plan ahead and prepare so that when the day comes to make the decision you feel ready for it. I think I have always known when it’s time, and I’ve always tried to ensure that it comes before any animal is suffering. I always think better a day too early than a moment too late. All but one of my piggies gave me a sign or I saw the light had gone from their eyes despite their attempts to “hide” it from their companions. Thoughts are with you at this very tough time.
 
Hi. Sorry sad circumstances.
Yes it's hard seeing a deeply loved piggie detorate and we can't do anything to fix them and i know most on here would give a lot to be able to do.
Hamish now needs you so much and you have to be brave very.
He and you will get a massive amount of comfort when the time comes at home or vets Hamish smells you hears you whilst you tell him hes going to a wonderful world full of love and piggies. 🌈 Tears can come later.
Hamish will understand you can't come yet because you have to love other piggies until they join him.
I and my piggies send you and Hamish :luv:
If I can do anything pls ask.
David
 
Sorry that you are in this heart wrenching time. You will know when the time is right. Hamish will tell you. The light will go from his eyes. Hugs at this difficult time.
 
Running a sanctuary like TEAS, means I have had to make that decision a number of times. Before anyone thinks that it's not the same as they are not 'my pets' then please think again. I invest my life in these little ones and it is just as heartbreaking when the time comes.

We have a strict ethos a TEAS which is 'to extend good quality life, but never to prolong suffering'. I assess each situation individually. I ask myself the questions, 'do they have a life worth living?' Can they display normal species specific behaviour, for a piggy of their age'?

There have been times where I have worried that I will let my heart rule my head, but when that time has come, I have known. When the spark has gone, then it's time to say goodbye.
I think it must be just as hard if not more so when you run a rescue as, being a specialist organisation, I’d imagine there feels like a huge duty of care to ensure the right choices are made for a piggy that has come to you due to pre-existing medical conditions. Each one is special and unique and you must form big attachments 🙂
Well today, Hamish came up to the bars for his usual fenugreek biscuit following his medicine so I thought that was a good sign.
It’s his turn with Algernon in the garden today. I’ve been testing the waters by checking he seems happy and active with the “pig of the day” in the run before letting them out for supervised roaming in the garden. They are both happily trotting about, nibbling grass and going up to the runs to see the others.
So, for me, the time is not here just yet. He seems happy, bright and animated.
I guess I’ll need to watch for the day when he just can’t be bothered by anything, doesn’t want to eat and just wants to hide away.
 
You will know in your heart when the time is there to say goodbye, believe me! The piggies will tell you or often take the agonising decision out of your hands anyway and you'll just do what is right at that time.

But it is perfectly normal to worry about it when you are coming close to that time as you want to get it right while at the same time you dread it... :(

You may find the advice in these two guide here helpful:
Emergency and Bridging Care until a Vet Appointment
Human Bereavement - Grieving, coping tips and support links for guinea pig owners and their children
It’s difficult when things are not clear cut. If he was hunched up in a corner all the time and not eating or he was squealing in obvious discomfort, the choice would be obvious.
However, Hamish does seem comfortable in displaying any signs of weakness to me - more so than to his mates - so I hope he will make it apparent when he’s ready.

Thank you for your message and for your helpful links x
 
It’s no bad thing to plan ahead and prepare so that when the day comes to make the decision you feel ready for it. I think I have always known when it’s time, and I’ve always tried to ensure that it comes before any animal is suffering. I always think better a day too early than a moment too late. All but one of my piggies gave me a sign or I saw the light had gone from their eyes despite their attempts to “hide” it from their companions. Thoughts are with you at this very tough time.
“A day too early” is exactly what the vet said yesterday. It is interesting what you say about the eyes too. I was looking back at piggy photos last night and in photos of my previous two boys that have passed, on their last day, their eyes looked dull and had lost their shine. It’s a bit tricky with Hamish as he has lipid deposits so his eyes look a bit cloudy anyway but the surface is shiny. Not quite time yet.
I don’t think Hamish has given up or resigned himself just yet so where there is quality of life, I will endeavour to make his last time with us happy.
 
Hi. Sorry sad circumstances.
Yes it's hard seeing a deeply loved piggie detorate and we can't do anything to fix them and i know most on here would give a lot to be able to do.
Hamish now needs you so much and you have to be brave very.
He and you will get a massive amount of comfort when the time comes at home or vets Hamish smells you hears you whilst you tell him hes going to a wonderful world full of love and piggies. 🌈 Tears can come later.
Hamish will understand you can't come yet because you have to love other piggies until they join him.
I and my piggies send you and Hamish :luv:
If I can do anything pls ask.
David
Thanks David. Hamish has been cried on that many times bless him. He’s very understanding of being soaked 😂 But I will try to be strong for him if we have to intervene. I’ve been told I can stay with him so I will definitely do that for him.
 
It is unfortunately a constant process of assessment and reassessment; you have to take it from day to day.

It can be rather stressful if it is dragging on for a while. Make sure that you are there for Hamish but that you also look after yourself well during this time.
If you are familiar with Mindfulness or meditation exercises, now is a good time to dig them out again; go for a walk or do other activities that destress and replenish your physical and mental reserves.

As long as Hamish still has a zest for life and his food, then he is still for staying here. Take each extra day more as a special gift.
 
So sorry that you are facing such a difficult decision.
I can’t add much to what has already been said.
Bear in mind that you are already grieving for Hamish.
Grief kicks in as soon as we face the reality of death whether that is recognising and elderly piggy is coming to the end of its life or a terminal diagnosis from a vet.
Holding you in my heart
 
Anyone who has a bond with their pets of whatever kind, can tell when their pet is ready to leave for the bridge.
Their zest for life goes, it really does show & often their eyes tell you they've had enough.
Its said that the eyes are 'the windows to the soul'.
All of my past piggies that I've had to make that awful decision for have all helped me to decide when the time was right for them.

In some ways I think being PTS is less distressing & painful for the guinea than some natural deaths.
As the organs shut down, sometimes this causes seizures & guineas to 'run' to the bridge.
This can be incredibly upsetting if you're not expecting it :(

But for a Guinea to drift off in their sleep is the best way we can hope for.
Whatever happens their quality of life is paramount.

You sound like you have a very strong bond with your little man, so I'm pretty sure you'll know when or if the time is right.

My old girl Ellie lost about/over 350g in her last 12-18 months, it was a gradual but noticeable decline & her muscle mass gradually disappeared, but she was happy bobbling about & scoffing everything in sight, right up to her last day.

If he's shuffling or limping discuss with your vet if he has a mild UTI or if you can use an opiate based or stronger painkiller?

My thoughts go out to you & @tabelmabel at this difficult time.
Just remember to fill their remaining days with happiness, love, treats & a positive outlook :hug:

Xx
 
Maybe I’m strange but I certainly don’t start grieving until after the death. Life is terminal, but I’m not going to worry about that until it happens. I take each day as it comes and if that day is good, then there is lots to smile about.

I am of course gutted when I realise that time is running out for one of my piggies, but after every potentially life threatening illness/incident or as soon as get a potentially terminal diagnosis, I reset the clock and count every single day more with my piggy as a blessing.
It is a lesson that I learned with a parent fighting their terminal cancer for three years. What counts is what you make of the remaining time, not how long it is. You can fill a moment of time with a lifetime's worth of love; that is something very important I have taken from that time.

It is my way as a long term owner to cope with loss because I would otherwise be moping constantly having lost over 30 piggies in the last 10 years and losing about 5-6 on average every year at the moment. I see my piggies as a loan on time and concentrate on the time I have with them, whether that is a short time or long time - what counts is how happy a life they have when they are with me. That is why I don't have a problem with adopting an older piggy or one with problems. Pets by their very nature have a shorter life than us; it is never about quantity but always about quality.

I am missing my Nosgan and am grieving for him (the pain of the actual loss and the severed unique bond is never going to be any less), but as far as I am concerned, he has had two extra and very happy years he may not necessarily have had. I am cherishing that fact instead of focussing on a life cut short.
A glass of water can be half full or half empty - when you are having lots of fragile or older piggies, you have to concentrate on the water that is in the glass. ;)
 
I am of course gutted when I realise that time is running out for one of my piggies, but after every potentially life threatening illness/incident or as soon as get a potentially terminal diagnosis, I reset the clock and count every single day more with my piggy as a blessing.
It is a lesson that I learned with a parent fighting their terminal cancer for three years. What counts is what you make of the remaining time, not how long it is. You can fill a moment of time with a lifetime's worth of love; that is something very important I have taken from that time.

It is my way as a long term owner to cope with loss because I would otherwise be moping constantly having lost over 30 piggies in the last 10 years and losing about 5-6 on average every year at the moment. I see my piggies as a loan on time and concentrate on the time I have with them, whether that is a short time or long time - what counts is how happy a life they have when they are with me. That is why I don't have a problem with adopting an older piggy or one with problems. Pets by their very nature have a shorter life than us; it is never about quantity but always about quality.

I am missing my Nosgan and am grieving for him (the pain of the actual loss and the severed unique bond is never going to be any less), but as far as I am concerned, he has had two extra and very happy years he may not necessarily have had. I am cherishing that fact instead of focussing on a life cut short.
A glass of water can be half full or half empty - when you are having lots of fragile or older piggies, you have to concentrate on the water that is in the glass. ;)
Beautiful x
I had 7 extra months with poorly Cocoa after her cancer was confirmed.
I promised she wouldn't suffer and her fighting spirt gave me a honour to nurse her until she died.
I do it again and again because it's a two way love thing.
 
I'm definitely making the most of my last few days or weeks with Benson. All the extra attention has got him very chatty just now. His weight has actually gone up slightly! I'm weighing every day now. He is looking not bad at all. He was out on the grass just for a couple of hours today

20190420_154345.webp

He is looking quite bright eyed today, though you can see how thin he is.
I'm not feeling too sad about the situation; just appreciating him even more. I'm glad i know he is ill so that i can appreciate every day now.
 
Grief is a very personal thing. Having lost my Dad, when I was 21, I was faced with a very close and difficult death, at an age, when most of my friends hadn’t even considered their parents mortality. Since that day, I cherish every day that I get to spend with my loved ones, human and pets. Here at TEAS we’ve recently lost five piggies in four weeks. I can do no more for them, but I’ve got many others that need me. Therefore, there is no time for sadness. Instead I celebrate all that I did for them and embrace all that I can do for those who are still here. Life is short, so we need to make the most of every day!
 
It is unfortunately a constant process of assessment and reassessment; you have to take it from day to day.

It can be rather stressful if it is dragging on for a while. Make sure that you are there for Hamish but that you also look after yourself well during this time.
If you are familiar with Mindfulness or meditation exercises, now is a good time to dig them out again; go for a walk or do other activities that destress and replenish your physical and mental reserves.

As long as Hamish still has a zest for life and his food, then he is still for staying here. Take each extra day more as a special gift.
I think I do need to try and do some things for myself, especially as Hamish seems a bit stronger. It’s easy to get wrapped up in devoting myself to the piggies and not looking after myself 😬
 
I think I do need to try and do some things for myself, especially as Hamish seems a bit stronger. It’s easy to get wrapped up in devoting myself to the piggies and not looking after myself 😬

It is very important when caring for another being (human or pet) that you keep looking after yourself as much as possible. If you are no longer able to do your job because of exhaustion or neglecting yourself, you are not helping the other. Getting that balance right, especially when things are dragging on, is often not quite easy!

All the best for Hamish and you. Treasure the good times!
 
So sorry that you are facing such a difficult decision.
I can’t add much to what has already been said.
Bear in mind that you are already grieving for Hamish.
Grief kicks in as soon as we face the reality of death whether that is recognising and elderly piggy is coming to the end of its life or a terminal diagnosis from a vet.
Holding you in my heart
It has certainly been a rollercoaster ride of emotion. One day thinking I was going to lose him and saying all my goodbyes, then having this confirmed by a vet, and now he’s picking up again. I’m worn out!
 
I'm definitely making the most of my last few days or weeks with Benson. All the extra attention has got him very chatty just now. His weight has actually gone up slightly! I'm weighing every day now. He is looking not bad at all. He was out on the grass just for a couple of hours today

View attachment 111394

He is looking quite bright eyed today, though you can see how thin he is.
I'm not feeling too sad about the situation; just appreciating him even more. I'm glad i know he is ill so that i can appreciate every day now.
What a gorgeous boy he is! 😍 I think there’s something to be said for the lovely weather and some fresh air to perk them up. Hamish has started eating a lot more, has been quite active and has put on 40g. He’s obviously making the most of things so I should too. I’ve been caught up in the sadness of it all but seeing him pick up means I don’t have to worry about watching his every move. It’s a trying time for us and I’m also thinking of you and Benson xx
 
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