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Euthanasia: When is it “time”?

GPTV said:
Anyone who has a bond with their pets of whatever kind, can tell when their pet is ready to leave for the bridge.
Their zest for life goes, it really does show & often their eyes tell you they've had enough.
Its said that the eyes are 'the windows to the soul'.
All of my past piggies that I've had to make that awful decision for have all helped me to decide when the time was right for them.

In some ways I think being PTS is less distressing & painful for the guinea than some natural deaths.
As the organs shut down, sometimes this causes seizures & guineas to 'run' to the bridge.
This can be incredibly upsetting if you're not expecting it :(

But for a Guinea to drift off in their sleep is the best way we can hope for.
Whatever happens their quality of life is paramount.

You sound like you have a very strong bond with your little man, so I'm pretty sure you'll know when or if the time is right.

My old girl Ellie lost about/over 350g in her last 12-18 months, it was a gradual but noticeable decline & her muscle mass gradually disappeared, but she was happy bobbling about & scoffing everything in sight, right up to her last day.

If he's shuffling or limping discuss with your vet if he has a mild UTI or if you can use an opiate based or stronger painkiller?

My thoughts go out to you & @tabelmabel at this difficult time.
Just remember to fill their remaining days with happiness, love, treats & a positive outlook :hug:

Xx
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Thank you for your lovely message. Hamish’s hobbling is definitely down to back leg issues. Apparently one is locked at 90 degrees and he exhibits pain when the other one is manipulated or his lower spine is touched. I think a lot of weight loss is down to muscle wastage. He is on a high whack of painkillers and nothing else has been suggested. I have noticed that his movement improves the more exercise he does. I am satisfied and the vets are satisfied that the painkillers keep him as pain free as possible.

I’ve held quite a few piggies whilst they’ve died and it can be quite traumatic to watch. Quite similar to watching my Gran pass away. Some piggies have had a type of fit and just gone but my last piggy (sorry to be graphic) was gasping for air. I believe they’re already unconscious and these are involuntary movements. All very quick and hopefully painless. At least that’s what I want to believe.

Anyway, I’m holding out some hope for Hamish as he seems a bit brighter but I have had other piggies go into super active, restless mode when their time comes.

Thank you for your thoughts and I’m sorry to hear about Ellie. Xx
 
Hi all, thank you so much for all of your support over Hamish. He really seems to be perking up and has put on some weight 🙏. He was very active in the garden with his friends yesterday. I think he overdid things though as today he’s been resting a bit more between wandering about and nibbling.
I saw him eating his Burgess nuggets for the first time in a couple of weeks so he’s obviously trying everything going bless him.
It was his turn in the garden with Rupert today (one of his closest buddies). Rupert doesn’t normally leave his side but seemed to be keeping his distance a bit more today and seemed subdued. I suppose it’s a confusing time for them all when their “leader” is on death’s door one day and trotting about the next!
I even tried a spot of reiki and crystal therapy for Hamish on Friday. I don’t really know what I’m doing but he seemed very relaxed 😌 I might try it again as he did seem very sprightly the following day.
I was due to have a final audition to be the lead singer of a local band on Thursday night. Unfortunately, it clashed with the only appointment I could get for Hamish. Needless to say, my request to audition another day didn’t go down well and I was told: “A guinea pig isn’t important enough to miss an audition.” 😡 I beg to differ but I probably wouldn’t have gotten on very well with them with that attitude. Ah well.
 
Wiebke said:
It is very important when caring for another being (human or pet) that you keep looking after yourself as much as possible. If you are no longer able to do your job because of exhaustion or neglecting yourself, you are not helping the other. Getting that balance right, especially when things are dragging on, is often not quite easy!

All the best for Hamish and you. Treasure the good times!
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Yup, I think I try to go into superhuman carer mode. I know from when I cared for my Gran round the clock in the last weeks of her life how ill it made me so I need to ease off a bit now Hamish is being more independent.
 
I am so sorry to read about Hamish. He is obviously very precious to you and you have cared for him so well over the years.

It is so difficult to decide what to do ... it is heart v head. You don’t want to be parted from Hamish but also want the best for him. You may already know but if you have a good vet, they will also guide you.

Take things day by day - and as Wiebke says ... take time to care for yourself also.

Hugs to you and Hamish x
 
great to hear Hamish has perked up a bit as well!
I'm wondering if it's the milk thistle that's helping Benson - i have noticed he is eating his veg much quicker. Before, he ate so slowly, Mike (his cagemate) was snatching it all away but he had some green beans yesterday and went through them very quickly indeed. He was up to 670g this morning. Still very low for a rex but at least it's not plummeting down any further just now. Hopefully, both our boys will be able to enjoy a little more sunshine in their lives, as well as bringing more into ours.

What a pity about your audition! Will you get another shot at it?

Everyone seems to understand the pain of losing a dog, but fewer understand how guinea pigs also leave huge holes in the heart.
Hopefully, they will give you another date for it.
 
tabelmabel said:
great to hear Hamish has perked up a bit as well!
I'm wondering if it's the milk thistle that's helping Benson - i have noticed he is eating his veg much quicker. Before, he ate so slowly, Mike (his cagemate) was snatching it all away but he had some green beans yesterday and went through them very quickly indeed. He was up to 670g this morning. Still very low for a rex but at least it's not plummeting down any further just now. Hopefully, both our boys will be able to enjoy a little more sunshine in their lives, as well as bringing more into ours.

What a pity about your audition! Will you get another shot at it?

Everyone seems to understand the pain of losing a dog, but fewer understand how guinea pigs also leave huge holes in the heart.
Hopefully, they will give you another date for it.
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Unfortunately, they gave the position to another singer. Ah well, perhaps these things happen for a reason. I’m not really a rock singer anyway so it might have been a struggle. I think I’d be more suited to an acoustic line-up.
It is funny, the piggies don’t mind me singing and playing the piano but they hate recorded music 😂 Sometimes they all start squeaking when I’m singing. I don’t know if they’re heckling or joining in 🤣
That’s great that Benson is maintaining some weight even if it is low. Where do you get the milk thistle from? I’ve been giving Hamish fenugreek snack biscuits which are supposed to be an appetite stimulant.
 
Lol at least the piggies appreciate your vocals and, as you say, maybe it wasn't to be for you with that particular audition.

Milk thistle is reputed to be good for liver problems and i got the actual herb from Galens Garden online. I couldn't seem to find a liquid supplement suitable for pigs so i thought this worth a try after @Jaycey told me about it.
Initially, benson went right to it and mike didn't touch it but now i see mike is at it too.
Mike is not really looking after benson at all well! He is a greedy pig and takes all the best food for himself! I do separate them to give benson a fair chance.
 
tabelmabel said:
Lol at least the piggies appreciate your vocals and, as you say, maybe it wasn't to be for you with that particular audition.

Milk thistle is reputed to be good for liver problems and i got the actual herb from Galens Garden online. I couldn't seem to find a liquid supplement suitable for pigs so i thought this worth a try after @Jaycey told me about it.
Initially, benson went right to it and mike didn't touch it but now i see mike is at it too.
Mike is not really looking after benson at all well! He is a greedy pig and takes all the best food for himself! I do separate them to give benson a fair chance.
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How is Benson doing? Thanks for the info on the Milk Thistle 😀 Hamish is ok but I’m having a hard time maintaining his weight. I’m just wondering if his snack biscuits are an issue. He has one Nature’s Choice Fenugreek biscuit after each dose of medicine and he goes mad for them. It says Fenugreek is supposed to be an appetite stimulant but I’ve since read it can delay food absorption. 🤔 Mind you, if he enjoys them I probably shouldn’t worry at this late stage. All my other piggies like different biscuits such as the Burgess Parsley or Blueberry ones. If I give them the wrong one, they throw it out the cage in disgust 😂 Spoilt piggies!
 
Thanks for asking @alexr - not too bad at all. I was getting quite excited about his weight gain last week as it seemed to be on the up - it went to 695g and the next day I was hoping it would be o so ver the 700g, but alas, he was right down to 660g! And he has maintained 660g for the past 3 days. However, last Tuesday he was right down at 635g and this Tuesday it was 660g, so I'm thinking that is pretty good.
Since he got so thin, I am reluctant to give him full bum baths as I don't want him to chill at all but he is a little bit smelly -as I think I will try to wipe him a bit and see if that helps.

Mike, his cagemate, is being horrible to him - I am wondering why this is if anyone has any ideas? Mike has always been very greedy over any veg which is understandable and he is such a fast eater. But yesterday I put a massive mountain f fresh hay in - plenty enough for both pigs. Mike was at the opposite side of the pile to Benson, but as soon as Benson started to eat it, Mike ran round and put his head under Benson's chin and forced it up and off the hay. He did it two or three times til Benson stopped eating hay. What does that mean? I have never seen that behaviour from him before with hay.

I haven't tried any biscuits or anything and I have stopped the stickles (they used to like the ones covered in hay) because i am unsure of the calcium content. I did try coriander as I believe that is one of the few herbs low calcium but their favourites of mint and parsley have all had to be cut out.

I have also ordered a new bag of Oxbow timothy hay. They have always been on Oxbow and the quality has been fantastic, but the last bag was awful. when I went online, I found a lot of people having problems with Oxbow as they have changed supplier and the weather conditions last year had affected the quality. I am really hoping this new bag is a good one as the pigs normally go mad for it and it would be lovely if Benson can enjoy his favourite hay once more!

I hope Hamish is having a good day today!
 
tabelmabel said:
Thanks for asking @alexr - not too bad at all. I was getting quite excited about his weight gain last week as it seemed to be on the up - it went to 695g and the next day I was hoping it would be o so ver the 700g, but alas, he was right down to 660g! And he has maintained 660g for the past 3 days. However, last Tuesday he was right down at 635g and this Tuesday it was 660g, so I'm thinking that is pretty good.
Since he got so thin, I am reluctant to give him full bum baths as I don't want him to chill at all but he is a little bit smelly -as I think I will try to wipe him a bit and see if that helps.

Mike, his cagemate, is being horrible to him - I am wondering why this is if anyone has any ideas? Mike has always been very greedy over any veg which is understandable and he is such a fast eater. But yesterday I put a massive mountain f fresh hay in - plenty enough for both pigs. Mike was at the opposite side of the pile to Benson, but as soon as Benson started to eat it, Mike ran round and put his head under Benson's chin and forced it up and off the hay. He did it two or three times til Benson stopped eating hay. What does that mean? I have never seen that behaviour from him before with hay.

I haven't tried any biscuits or anything and I have stopped the stickles (they used to like the ones covered in hay) because i am unsure of the calcium content. I did try coriander as I believe that is one of the few herbs low calcium but their favourites of mint and parsley have all had to be cut out.

I have also ordered a new bag of Oxbow timothy hay. They have always been on Oxbow and the quality has been fantastic, but the last bag was awful. when I went online, I found a lot of people having problems with Oxbow as they have changed supplier and the weather conditions last year had affected the quality. I am really hoping this new bag is a good one as the pigs normally go mad for it and it would be lovely if Benson can enjoy his favourite hay once more!

I hope Hamish is having a good day today!
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You may want to put a divider in the cage to allow Benson to eat in peace as Mikey is obviously on the upper range of dominance veeering into outright bullying behaviour.

Guinea pigs feel illness, but - apart from personal quirks - they react differently. If it feels like an illness that could potentially affect the whole group, a piggy will usually remove itself or they may be urged by their companions to ensure the survival of the group as a whole. ~
In a cage situation, this is of course not possible and often results in bullying behaviour. A very ill piggy will 'remove' itself into a corner and face away from their mates.
If a piggy is disabled and can prove it can keep up with the group, then it will usually be supported and looked after.

Then there is the hierarchy aspect: a former leader that cannot hold their position will inevitably face dominance behaviour as their vital spot is taken over and defended by a new leader. Old group leaders are often pushed to the bottom of the hierarchy. If there is no obvious successor or succession is fiercely contested, this can lead to problems or even a split of the group.

How supportive or not a companion is also depends on their personality and the nature of the bond.
 
Thanks @ weibke - I have been taking Benson out of the cage altogether for veggies but I put such a massive amount of hay in, I didn't think it would be an issue. Your description does fit perfectly - Benson isn't really taking himself off to a corner; he actually is looking pretty good at the moment - but he just tends to stand and let it happen. Mike does seem to have taken over the whole cage though! I moved them from the c&c because it just seemed too big - it was 2 storey and neither of them were going down the ramp at all - Benson just isn't mobile enough for ramps now.

so they are in a ferplast (140 i think it is) it is fairly large, but nothing like as large as the c&c. I will keep an eye on this behaviour as Benson is very stoic. He gets a good 2 hours away from Mike each day. I have got 3 water bottles up for them as the vet said to encourage Benson to drink as much as poss with his bladder sludge and they have at least a couple of fleece snuggles in so Benson does have a drink and a bed available at all times.

The Oxbow hay came today and it's not quite as good as I was hoping. Lovely smell but quite straw like again.
 
tabelmabel said:
Thanks @ weibke - I have been taking Benson out of the cage altogether for veggies but I put such a massive amount of hay in, I didn't think it would be an issue. Your description does fit perfectly - Benson isn't really taking himself off to a corner; he actually is looking pretty good at the moment - but he just tends to stand and let it happen. Mike does seem to have taken over the whole cage though! I moved them from the c&c because it just seemed too big - it was 2 storey and neither of them were going down the ramp at all - Benson just isn't mobile enough for ramps now.

so they are in a ferplast (140 i think it is) it is fairly large, but nothing like as large as the c&c. I will keep an eye on this behaviour as Benson is very stoic. He gets a good 2 hours away from Mike each day. I have got 3 water bottles up for them as the vet said to encourage Benson to drink as much as poss with his bladder sludge and they have at least a couple of fleece snuggles in so Benson does have a drink and a bed available at all times.

The Oxbow hay came today and it's not quite as good as I was hoping. Lovely smell but quite straw like again.
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I think piggies are little monkeys when one of them is poorly. You’d think the other one would look after the frail one. Herbie keeps trying his luck at “taking over from Hamish” but, fortunately, Hamish is still pretty strict with him. Herbie is a big rumble strutter and tries to steal food out of Hamish’s mouth! Hamish won’t have any of it though. At least it shows he’s not ready to relinquish his role just yet!

On the whole, the piggies have all been very gentle with Hamish. Rupert in particular is very good with him when they’re in the garden and won’t leave his side. I think Hamish rather enjoys his time away from Herbie. Whilst Rupert is with Hamish, Herbie spends time with Rupert’s friend Claudio. I have a feeling the piggies actually prefer this set up as Rupert is a bit overly bossy with Claudio. Claudio visibly relaxes around Herbie and they play funny hide and seek and gentle chasing games together whilst popcorning around. I have thought about swapping the pairings but I think this would cause undue stress for Hamish at this stage. Also, Rupert has been a nightmare to pair up so I wouldn’t fancy going through the process again once Hamish has gone to the bridge.

Hamish is still just 920g but at least this weight has been maintained. I hope the weather brightens up so they can graze in the garden again soon. Poor Hamish seems to struggle the most after eating his dinner. I thought I was going to lose him the other night as he was breathing so heavily.

I’m meeting my vet friend for coffee on Monday. She thought we should add some Ranitidine into his regime so she’s kindly going to get me some. In the meantime, she suggested getting some 75mg Zantac tablets, crushing one up with 5ml of water and giving Hamish 0.3ml of that solution twice a day. I feel a bit nervous of “homemade” medicines but I’m giving it a go until I get the animal one.

I’ve not tried the Oxbow hay before. We have a local independent pet shop that sells lovely green hay so I try to get that wherever possible. I gave up with Hamish and Herbie having the same litter tray full of hay that the rest of the piggies do. I’m back to half fleece, half hay in their cage as they kept weeing and pooing all over the litter tray. They are bigger fans of sitting and burrowing in hay than the others so I pander to their whims. I fill loo rolls and a little basket with hay as well so they always have a fresh supply. It’s funny how they all have different habits and preferences!
 
Good to hear hamish is still enjoying life @alexr ! Benson is fading fast now. His weight has plummeted to 590g. He is always eating so i can only think his liver has stopped processing the food.

Worse, he has the start of bumblefoot. This has developed despite a clean cage, short nails and plenty vit c. I can only think he isnt absorbing the vit c. I have put him on clean fleece today and he has had a bum bath. I cleaned the feet with an antiseptic wipe and put sudocrem on. Hoping that will work the magic it works on nappy rash. I think i have caught it early, it isnt horrendous and not infected. He is still eating and lively but i cant imagine he can go on too many more days.
It does feel sadder than i thought because he is still trying so hard to communicate and he really does seem to be eating a lot. He chomped his way through 7 green beens and half a carrot on my knee last night but his weight is just falling so fast.
 
Hi. Great he's still battling and that's love and him.
He's course very poorly and weight is low I'm not wanting to be negative but remember you know he's ill he doesn't
I was told this with a very poorly piggie and it helped me then and i hope you now. x
 
Sending hugs to both of you @tabelmabel and @alexr. It’s a sad time seeing a beloved piggie slowly fade. Make the most of your precious days together. They have both been given a wonderful happy life full of love and care and they will both feel this. Treasure your beautiful memories when the time comes x
 
Thanks everyone. On reading further about bumblefoot, I think what benson has is more likely to be urine scald and not bumblefoot at all. This would make more sense as there is definitely an aroma of urine on his tummy fur. I have taken the fleece snuggles out as i think sitting in there with his feet on any damp wont help so i have put the open beds in their place.
Since his bum bath and foot treatment, he has been eating constantly. He looked better and felt heavier when i lifted him for his loxicom just now, but i didn't weigh him as i know any gain is from what he has eaten tonight and any loss from this morning is not what i want to see to prepare for a peaceful night's sleep!

I think we are in the grey zone that wiebke mentioned - some really good spells in amongst the not so good. He just seems to be going between looking quite perky to not great.
Thanks for your words @David Piggie Lover - you're so right, he doesnt know he is so ill. There definitely seems to be a life quality there just now and, if these are his final days, well he has enjoyed some good food and attention. Not such a bad end.

Here's a pic taken when he was in full health in the bed that is in the cage just now20160704_133407.webp
 
Well, benson was 615g this morning but that was after eating some cucumber. I have some more milk thistle on order, coming tomorrow. I think that did help him maintain weight. I only ordered 2 small packs last time, thinking he wouldnt be here long enough to justify buying a huge bag and then it ran out! So i have a huge bag coming tomorrow but i just don't know if I'm just prolonging the inevitable really.

He has been eating today and his feet have been washed, dried and more cream. I think he will still be here tomorrow when the milk thistle comes. One of these days soon will be the last, but i don't think it is today. . .
 
While he has quality of life you are not prolonging the inevitable you are keeping him comfortable, he will let you know when he is ready to go. Sending you huge hugs at such a difficult time.
 
A happy update...Despite all the odds, Hamish has been a trooper. He is celebrating his 3rd “Gotcha Day” today. We think he is about 8 years old. Happy Rescue Birthday Hamish!

This post comes over a month since the vet had the “PTS chat.” Hamish has good days and bad days but we make the most of every day he is with us.

Here he is in the garden this afternoon and we will be having a special tea later with all his favourite greens and herbs.E47C699D-02FA-4AC9-B5F2-3426E8FBEC4D.webp
 
Just a little update... Remarkably, seven weeks on from the appointment when I was told it looked like Hamish may need to be PTS, he is still with us! Eating well, maintaining his albeit lower weight and loving lots of garden time and cuddles. I did have a cry today when I put him on the grass and he was incredibly unsteady on his feet for a long time before he finally got moving properly. We had torrential rain yesterday and I think the lack of exercise outside had made his joints seize up. After about 30 mins he became more mobile but it is horrible to see him wobbling. I think we’re in for more rain so I need to do a sun dance!
 
I have just caught up with your thread and I am ever so sorry that you may need to make the decision soon but it is great that Hamish is still with you.

I agree with what others have said about the eyes. I’ve had to have 5 of my precious guinea pigs pts now and each time they have lost that spark in their eyes. I regret every single decision I made but deep down, I know it was in the piggies best interest at the time.

Trust me, you will know when that time comes xx
 
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