Euthanasia: When is it “time”?

[melsey3]

I am in a very similar situation with my Bourbon, she is on day 6 of steroids to try and put her Lymphoma into remission, but I'm not sure it is working. She is still eating, and drinking, has no weight loss, and is still exploring her cage, and when I put her down on the carpet was happy to run around, she is also still very much one of the gang, and is still emphasising her dominance, she flinches a teeny tiny bit when I touch her neck, and one of her back legs, but guinea pigs can be a little like that anyway. She doesn't seem to be in pain at the moment other than that. At this precise moment she is not suffering, but at the same time I don't want her suffering either, I think If I was to put her to sleep now, it would be too early, and cheat her out of her natural life span, but it is niggling at my mind a bit, wondering if I am actually being cruel. Either way I am worried. We have an appointment booked for 29th July, but I am dreading it, as my lovely vet will not be there to do the checks, or if necessary to put her to sleep. I think I will know when it is the right time, but I don't want her to be so very poorly when I do make this horrible decision . My thoughts go out to everybody who is going through the same thoughts, and feelings as me, and also to those who have already lost their piggies to Rainbow Bridge. We havn't had a great 2 years with our many animals (over 35), I have lost 4 guinea pigs (Eponine, Gandalf, Gingersnap, and Snowy, as well as a couple of baby guineas) 1 rabbit (Theo), and 1 budgie (Emerald) The last 2 mentioned within a few weeks of each other. Now I am faced with also losing my Bourbon (aged 4). I already knew this would be a bad year, as many of our precious little fur babies will be over 5 years old by the end of it, one of whom turned 6 in June, with several more turning 5 next year. My bunny would have been 7 2 weeks after we lost him. (a bit shocked, as most of my bunnies have reached 8+ years)

You can never be prepared, and every time is just as painful.

Big hugs to everybody
xx

 

[alexr]

I am in a very similar situation with my Bourbon, she is on day 6 of steroids to try and put her Lymphoma into remission, but I'm not sure it is working. She is still eating, and drinking, has no weight loss, and is still exploring her cage, and when I put her down on the carpet was happy to run around, she is also still very much one of the gang, and is still emphasising her dominance, she flinches a teeny tiny bit when I touch her neck, and one of her back legs, but guinea pigs can be a little like that anyway. She doesn't seem to be in pain at the moment other than that. At this precise moment she is not suffering, but at the same time I don't want her suffering either, I think If I was to put her to sleep now, it would be too early, and cheat her out of her natural life span, but it is niggling at my mind a bit, wondering if I am actually being cruel. Either way I am worried. We have an appointment booked for 29th July, but I am dreading it, as my lovely vet will not be there to do the checks, or if necessary to put her to sleep. I think I will know when it is the right time, but I don't want her to be so very poorly when I do make this horrible decision . My thoughts go out to everybody who is going through the same thoughts, and feelings as me, and also to those who have already lost their piggies to Rainbow Bridge. We havn't had a great 2 years with our many animals (over 35), I have lost 4 guinea pigs (Eponine, Gandalf, Gingersnap, and Snowy, as well as a couple of baby guineas) 1 rabbit (Theo), and 1 budgie (Emerald) The last 2 mentioned within a few weeks of each other. Now I am faced with also losing my Bourbon (aged 4). I already knew this would be a bad year, as many of our precious little fur babies will be over 5 years old by the end of it, one of whom turned 6 in June, with several more turning 5 next year. My bunny would have been 7 2 weeks after we lost him. (a bit shocked, as most of my bunnies have reached 8+ years)

You can never be prepared, and every time is just as painful.

Big hugs to everybody
xx

Thank you so much for your message. I’m sorry to hear you’re facing a similar decision with Bourbon. It is so hard to know what to do when faced with a long term illness as opposed to a quick illness or finding them in their sleep. We wonder when we’ve reached the point where their suffering outweighs quality of life.
I worry that I am clinging on selfishly. I am struggling to let my best piggy friend go. I cling on because of the other five boys who will all become single. Through their various pair fallouts, Hamish has picked up the pieces and been an amazing Grandad figure and taken over socialising duties. They all adore him and I will be faced with some very tough choices. Perhaps dynamics will change but it’s unlikely. I can’t afford a potential 10 pig set up so it may mean rehoming some which will be heartbreaking.
I’m hoping my vet who is also my friend will give me her honest opinion on Hamish later today.

 

[PERFECT G PIGS]

Thank you! @Adelle I’d be really interested to hear how you’ve got on with the CBD. Have you managed to source some in the UK? I chatted with our vet today and she didn’t seem convinced but would like to try acupuncture tomorrow as she’s seen some great results in other animals. Still interested in other people’s experiences of the CBD though.

HI you put a little Cbd on each ear.

I would definitely try it.

 

[PERFECT G PIGS]

I have been looking into this and it looks remarkable. The “before” video is exactly how Hamish is moving now. I’m willing to try it but they’ve sold out on Amazon. I’d have to get it sent from the US which will take time. Does anyone know of an equivalent product available readily in the UK?

Unfortunately no I don't.

 

[alexr]

Unfortunately no I don't.

The concentrates sold at Holland & Barrrett seem a lot higher than the one used at LA Guinea Pig rescue. I don’t want to overdose the poor chap. I wonder if a drop could be mixed with coconut oil or similar. I’d like some advice on this though.

 

[VickiA]

The concentrates sold at Holland & Barrrett seem a lot higher than the one used at LA Guinea Pig rescue. I don’t want to overdose the poor chap. I wonder if a drop could be mixed with coconut oil or similar. I’d like some advice on this though.

You will not get “advice” on this through this forum.

POLITE NOTICE TO ALL MEMBERS FOLLOWING OR POSTING ON THIS THREAD

Please do NOT try any treatment unless you have first spoken to a vet. This includes CBD oil. Even if you have seen it advocated by US rescues this is not a treatment of choice in the UK. The forum stance is that treatment should only be provided by or approved by a qualified veterinary surgeon after an examination.

No member should be giving advice on this forum about this treatment, dosages etc. We have to be careful to stay on the right side of the law.

 

[PERFECT G PIGS]

You will not get “advice” on this through this forum.

POLITE NOTICE TO ALL MEMBERS FOLLOWING OR POSTING ON THIS THREAD

Please do NOT try any treatment unless you have first spoken to a vet. This includes CBD oil. Even if you have seen it advocated by US rescues this is not a treatment of choice in the UK. The forum stance is that treatment should only be provided by or approved by a qualified veterinary surgeon after an examination.

No member should be giving advice on this forum about this treatment, dosages etc. We have to be careful to stay on the right side of the law.

I am only given out the information that I saw on her YouTube videos.

It really is up to her if she checks out this information and does it or not.

 

[sport_billy]

Discussions taking place within this forum are intended for the purpose of assisting you in discussing options with your vet. Any other use of advice given here is done so at your risk, is solely your responsibility and not that of this forum or its owner. Before posting it is your responsibility you abide by this Statement

 

[alexr]

My vet is against it as she does not believe there is sufficient evidence to support its use in animals. It is also possible that it may interfere with other medications. I guess I’m just desperate, clutching at straws and trying to do everything I can to help Hamish.

 

[sport_billy]

I am only given out the information that I saw on her YouTube videos.

It really is up to her if she checks out this information and does it or not.

Excuse me, you are speaking to @VickiA who is a moderator on this forum. We have a right to advise people at all points to see a vet rather than follow treatment that has not been prescribed but read about online.

Pain relief especially at end of life needs to be monitored by a vet, these are the people who have years of medical training to care for sick animals. Not by following instructions on self treating on the internet

 

[Wiebke]

My vet is against it as she does not believe there is sufficient evidence to support its use in animals. It is also possible that it may interfere with other medications. I guess I’m just desperate, clutching at straws and trying to do everything I can to help Hamish.

HUGS

I feel for you! It is so hard to see a beloved piggy go downhill; I've been through it with my Heulwen over the last week and have still another three very frail elderlies to go.

Tramadol is an analgesic that is safe to give to a piggy in serious pain.


Unfortunately we have seen so many online 'miracle cures' arrive with a fanfare and then disappear quietly again after a few years once they were better understood and found to be either not effective or to come with some major problems.
What has stood the test of time is in our syllabus of measures we will recommend members to ask their vets for consideration where appropriate.

We will only recommend medication on this forum that we know is safe to use and only once we have understood how it works, what are its limits and hidden dangers and which are safe dosages without putting any guinea pigs at risk.

This forum is a public space and is therefore subject to UK law and regulations. Any member posting on here will be made aware of it if they are in breach.

We have worked hard to make this a safe place for owners to come for advice and are not willing to put our continuing existence at risk of a lock down. There is currently a major clamp down in the UK on the unregulated prescription/use of veterinary medication with much stricter regulations. Just seeing something on You Tube without knowing more about the source, their own background/medical qualification and stance does not count as a qualification to give medical advice on this forum.

 

[sport_billy]

My vet is against it as she does not believe there is sufficient evidence to support its use in animals. It is also possible that it may interfere with other medications. I guess I’m just desperate, clutching at straws and trying to do everything I can to help Hamish.

I know I understand I have been in the frame of mind you are now and desperate to find a way. I would advise speaking to Simon, he is one of the best GP vets in the country there are opiate pain relievers like tramadol and Buprecare also known as vetergesic.

Huge hugs to you and love to your little piggy x x

 

[VickiA]

I really feel for you @alexr. Many of us (probably most of us) have been where you are. It’s a dark place and any potential ray of light makes you want to go and grab it. We just don’t know enough about the effects of CBD oil on piggies and we have to stay on the right side of the law.

Tramadol and vetergesic are both good for pain relief and prescribed by veterinary surgeons when required.

 

[alexr]

HUGS

I feel for you! It is so hard to see a beloved piggy go downhill; I've been through it with my Heulwen over the last week and have still another very frail elderlies to go.

Tramadol is an analgesic that is safe to give to a piggy in serious pain.


Unfortunately we have seen so many online 'miracle cures' arrive with a fanfare and then disappear quietly again after a few years once they were better understood and found to be either not effective or to come with some major problems.
What has stood the test of time is in our syllabus of measures we will recommend members to ask their vets for consideration where appropriate.

We will only recommend medication on this forum that we know is safe to use and only once we have understood how it works, what are its limits and hidden dangers and which are safe dosages without putting any guinea pigs at risk.

This forum is a public space and is therefore subject to UK law and regulations. Any member posting on here will be made aware of it if they are in breach.

We have worked hard to make this a safe place for owners to come for advice and are not willing to put our continuing existence at risk of a lock down. There is currently a major clamp down in the UK on the unregulated prescription/use of veterinary medication with much stricter regulations. Just seeing something on You Tube without knowing more about the source, their own background/medical qualification and stance does not count as a qualification to give medical advice on this forum.

Thank you for your reply Wiebke. I was very sorry to hear about Heulwen. I know she’d been battling for a long while bless her.
My vet did offer to prescribe Tramadol but I wasn’t sure if this was standard for piggies. Glad to hear it is. Perhaps we should try that for his end of life care.
Hamish has been doing a lot of resting in the garden today but is still enjoying the odd wobble onto the grass for a nibble. He looks pretty content bless him.

 

[alexr]

I know I understand I have been in the frame of mind you are now and desperate to find a way. I would advise speaking to Simon, he is one of the best GP vets in the country there are opiate pain relievers like tramadol and Buprecare also known as vetergesic.

Huge hugs to you and love to your little piggy x x

Yes, we have seen Simon several times for Hamish’s teeth. He is brilliant but I’ve been seeing our usual vet for Hamish’s pain relief. She’s got several piggies herself so she tries to keep very up to date. I don’t expect there’s much more we can do apart from trying Tramadol or similar. It might be worth a chat with or visit to Simon though.

 

[sport_billy]

Thank you for your reply Wiebke. I was very sorry to hear about Heulwen. I know she’d been battling for a long while bless her.
My vet did offer to prescribe Tramadol but I wasn’t sure if this was standard for piggies. Glad to hear it is. Perhaps we should try that for his end of life care.
Hamish has been doing a lot of resting in the garden today but is still enjoying the odd wobble onto the grass for a nibble. He looks pretty content bless him.

Tramadol will help with pain but make sure vet prescribes a gut stimulant with it like metachlpromide as it can often slow guts down.

The key here is getting them pain free and ensuring quality of life

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you for your reply Wiebke. I was very sorry to hear about Heulwen. I know she’d been battling for a long while bless her.
My vet did offer to prescribe Tramadol but I wasn’t sure if this was standard for piggies. Glad to hear it is. Perhaps we should try that for his end of life care.
Hamish has been doing a lot of resting in the garden today but is still enjoying the odd wobble onto the grass for a nibble. He looks pretty content bless him.

Your vet seems to be very competent and worth listening to!

As long as Hamish is exhibiting normal behaviour and is interested in food, then he has still got quality of life.
That has been my guide with Heulwen over the last week and has guided what support she was given in their last days to help make her as comfortable as possible.

 

[alexr]

I really feel for you @alexr. Many of us (probably most of us) have been where you are. It’s a dark place and any potential ray of light makes you want to go and grab it. We just don’t know enough about the effects of CBD oil on piggies and we have to stay on the right side of the law.

Tramadol and vetergesic are both good for pain relief and prescribed by veterinary surgeons when required.

Yes I agree. I would be wary of trying something potentially harmful. Just clutching to anything I guess. Last night saw me attempting crystal therapy and reiki. If nothing else, Hamish seemed to enjoy the attention and curled up for a long nap.

 

[sport_billy]

@Adelle would you be willing to pass on your vets contact details so @alexr vet could talk to them if interested in finding out more. Thanks as always for your advice and detail given x

 

[alexr]

Old crunchie has laser therapy every friday for her arthritis and it has helped massively. We go to a veterinary rehabilitation centre but our own vets where trailing it for 2 weeks providing 2 free sessions. Crunchie went there instead to save me pennies and I'm not sure if there machine wasn't as good or they just weren't as skilled but i noticed a deterioration in her mobility. One session back at the vet rehab and she is running again! Her left knee in particular is horrendous on x-ray, how it still functions is a mystery.. But with the laser therapy and her meds she is a happy girl.
Crunchie takes Metacam, tramadol, Calpol and cbd oil for inflammation in her joints (Metacam also for her bladder inflammation). Please don't pm me about the cbd as I've seen it's not a topic up for discussion and I can fully appreciate why. For the sake of safety, rodents are extremely sensitive to thc (the high) of cbd oil so PLEASE do not purchase something on a whim. My vet is on board and she's amazed at the difference since we added it in, but i wouldn't do it without vets advice. Also it interacts with medications so you need a 2 hour gap between cbd and other meds.. another reason not to try without advice.

On a less serious note, here is the old girl sleeping at her laser session ! She is now 8 years 2 months x
View attachment 118185

Wow, Crunchie looks incredibly relaxed at her laser sessions! What a gorgeous girl. It’s reassuring to know that all those medications can possibly be used alongside each other. I wasn’t sure if Hamish would have to stop his Metacam if he started on Tramadol.
We’re booked in to see the vet tomorrow for a review and to see if it’s advisable to commence something stronger like Tramadol. I do hope it’s possible and it won’t be our farewell visit but I’m trying to brace myself for this possibility.
He’s mostly been resting today but has done a bit of pottering and nibbling of grass this evening. He likes this time of day best but I suppose that’s standard piggy behaviour. He hasn’t been so into his greens the last couple of days but loves any herbs and grass. The good news is his weight is holding steady.

 

[Bill & Ted]

Oh, Crunchie you are so amazing! Carry on little lady with your laser treatment, it obviously works like a treat x

 

[alexr]

I’m really dreading our vet appointment this afternoon. Hamish has spent a bit of time with his two best friends in the run but it’ll soon be time to get ready to go. Really scared as to what the outcome will be.
He spent most of the night sprawled out with me last night. Obviously enjoying taking the weight off those sore legs.

 

[piggieminder]

Sending you hugs and very best wishes. I'll be thinking of you both this afternoon. X

 

[Gem789]

Keeping you both in my thoughts xx

 

[alexr]

Thank you @piggieminder & @Gem789. Some good news! His vet didn’t think he was ready to go yet. She thought he looked bright and interested in things and said if it was one of her piggies, she’d give him longer. So we have a new plan:
In addition to his Metacam, we’re adding in Tramadol for pain relief and Ranitidine for his stomach. I’m also going to try to encourage his eating with Critical Care. She also showed me how to do some physio leg circles and stretches morning and night to encourage movement. Also possibly a spot of the same in water.
She said if he doesn’t respond to the Tramadol, we know it’s not pain that is preventing him from walking stably but more of a mechanical issue.
Worth a go! So I went in a bit tearful and came out feeling quite hopeful he still has quality of life. He’s such a trooper!

 

[Gem789]

Thank you @piggieminder & @Gem789. Some good news! His vet didn’t think he was ready to go yet. She thought he looked bright and interested in things and said if it was one of her piggies, she’d give him longer. So we have a new plan:
In addition to his Metacam, we’re adding in Tramadol for pain relief and Ranitidine for his stomach. I’m also going to try to encourage his eating with Critical Care. She also showed me how to do some physio leg circles and stretches morning and night to encourage movement. Also possibly a spot of the same in water.
She said if he doesn’t respond to the Tramadol, we know it’s not pain that is preventing him from walking stably but more of a mechanical issue.
Worth a go! So I went in a bit tearful and came out feeling quite hopeful he still has quality of life. He’s such a trooper!

I'm really glad to hear that xx

 

[Bill & Ted]

Aw, Little Hamish, those little tootsies are irresistible x

 

[GPTV]

Aww what a little sweet heart ♥, I'm so glad he's such a little trooper & fighting on
Just look at those chookens

Hopefully the tramadol will do the trick
I know when my dog started having it for her arthritis the vet said she might be lethargic for the first few days, she did 'mong out' a bit for the first 12hrs & been fine ever since.
We did need to triple her dose for a short period, due to an unexpected event/pain management & she was drinking water excessively, but as soon as the dose dropped her drinking lessened & is now back to normal.

Just a couple of temporary side effects I thought you might like to know of, just so you don't panic if Hamish encounters them, it might be totally different than in a dog, but forewarned is forearmed as they say

Fantastic news for Hamish that he's doing so well still
Keep it up, healing vibes love the girls & I. Xx

 

[alexr]

Aww what a little sweet heart ♥, I'm so glad he's such a little trooper & fighting on
Just look at those chookens

Hopefully the tramadol will do the trick
I know when my dog started having it for her arthritis the vet said she might be lethargic for the first few days, she did 'mong out' a bit for the first 12hrs & been fine ever since.
We did need to triple her dose for a short period, due to an unexpected event/pain management & she was drinking water excessively, but as soon as the dose dropped her drinking lessened & is now back to normal.

Just a couple of temporary side effects I thought you might like to know of, just so you don't panic if Hamish encounters them, it might be totally different than in a dog, but forewarned is forearmed as they say

Fantastic news for Hamish that he's doing so well still
Keep it up, healing vibes love the girls & I. Xx

Thank you! Also thanks for the heads up about the potential side effects. I hadn’t thought it might make him more sleepy but I guess it can have that effect on humans.
I did a few leg rotations and stretches for him earlier. We managed more with the back right leg than the left. He decided he’d had quite enough of that! Thank goodness he’s so cuddly and friendly. My more feisty pigs would throw a fit if I tried it on them. I should perhaps keep a little diary of how much we do each day to see if it improves. He must think he’s at a health spa.

 

[alexr]

Hamish seems to be responding well to his treatment regime. Quite a bit more active and eating more. In fact his normally mushy impaction is more like normal poo so I think the addition of Critical Care and possibly the Ranitidine have helped with that.
We have a welcome distraction in the form of two new gorgeous foster boars that have come to me from TEAS. Mine have become most obsessed by watching their every move so Hamish makes the most of the peace and quiet and finds himself a nice patch of grass to nibble on whilst the others are strutting about doing their “man stuff” in their respective runs.