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Fergie Has Been Hyperventilating For 6 Weeks

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Sarah.aJones15

Sarah.aJones15

Junior Guinea Pig
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I am in Lincoln & have 2 piggies, Fergie & Bumble, who're now about 6 months old. 7 weeks ago, Fergie was hyperventilating (quickish breaths with exaggerated stomach movement) with slight clicking when breathing one evening. The vet the following day ruled out lung sounds, bloat or tummy issues or infection but said the clicking was coming from the nasal/throat area rather than further down. His ears/feet were the same temperature as Bumble's & he looked fine, no discharge from nose or eyes (except a v light crisp "sleep" in the corner), he's putting on weight fine & eating, chirpy, responsive, displays normal curiosity etc. What he does not like, is being touched between his lower cheek/jaw and all along his sides; his right worse than his left. On metacam for a week, the symptoms seemed to get better but returned a fortnight later (4 weeks ago). The vet checked as above - all clear - & his teeth were clear too. This time, metacam for a week didn't have any affect so we went back to the vet (3 weeks ago) who double-checked his internal organ sounds & confessed that he didn't know what was wrong.
They have been on dust-extracted woodchip with hay in their nest-box, eat gp "biccies" with addl greens & have been on grass weather permitting. Poops & wees fine. Now they're inside on fleece & maybe in the outside hutch as above if it's 15*+.
What do you think?
 
Hi Sarah & welcome to the forum :) If someone more knowledgeable doesn't come along soon I'll tag them for you. The touching bit sounds weird, has he got any hairloss at all or does he scratch much? Is your vet an Exotics vet as they might have a better idea of what is wrong :)
 
Hi! Where are you located and how old is your boy?

Did your vet consider whether it could be something obdtructing in his airways and has he checked the teeth/jaw area with a scan or x-ray considering that nothing has helped so far.
 
That must be very frustrating. Is your vet a guinea pig specialist? I agree with Wiebke, if they haven't done one yet, an xray might be enlightening. Sorry don't have any advice really. Good luck.
 
Wiebke said:
Hi! Where are you located and how old is your boy?

Did your vet consider whether it could be something obdtructing in his airways and has he checked the teeth/jaw area with a scan or x-ray considering that nothing has helped so far.
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Firstly, thank you for responding. Actually, I find your responses quite comforting as it's not anything glaringly obvious that I've missed due to inexperience (these are my first piggies).

Wiebke - I'm in Lincoln UK & the boys are about 6 months old now.

The local non-expert (but extremely understanding and conscientious) vet checked his teeth & jaw really thoroughly and did say that be could refer us to an exotics vet who may do bloodtests/scans etc. To be honest, I suspect that Fergie simply doesn't like being touched on his sides & it's a red herring as far as this situation goes. Funnily enough, Fergie's not "pulsing" as much this evening. As they've only been inside on fleece 2 nights, maybe that's helping. Time will tell (as well as worry, vets, scans, sleepless nights...) Golly, aren't they a worry!
 
I agree that an xray would be the next logical step, it sounds like your vet has already ruled out heart issues but that did spring to mind when I first read the symptoms.

I was also thinking it may help to switch off shavings so am glad the fleece seems to be helping.
 
Piggies can be a worry. It could be an environmental factor. Respiratory issues can be difficult to diagnose once you get into allergies etc. Is the breathing just rapid, or is the variety where the sides are heaving (the latter being a potential sign of heart problems)?

A conscientious general vet who is willing to learn and to ask a specialist is not a bad place to go to. it looks like your vet has really looked at pretty much all possibilities.
 
Thank you for the additional responses.

I also initially thought about heart issues just because the physical response is very similar to that seem in children although surely there'd be fluid retention? Certainly my local vet took the suggestion seriously and agreed it was a possibility. Maybe the weight he has been putting on is fluid. Hmmm... OK, let's say heart issues are revealed, what happens next? Do gps respond to oral medication? That's rhetorical; don't answer otherwise you'll be here all night with me asking more and more questions. I'll do a bit of research myself and pop to the vet tomorrow to get the referral.
 
Sarah.aJones15 said:
Thank you for the additional responses.

I also initially thought about heart issues just because the physical response is very similar to that seem in children although surely there'd be fluid retention? Certainly my local vet took the suggestion seriously and agreed it was a possibility. Maybe the weight he has been putting on is fluid. Hmmm... OK, let's say heart issues are revealed, what happens next? Do gps respond to oral medication? That's rhetorical; don't answer otherwise you'll be here all night with me asking more and more questions. I'll do a bit of research myself and pop to the vet tomorrow to get the referral.
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@helen105281 is our heart specialist, but piggies can take diuretics and other heart meds orally without problems and long term.
 
Happy to help, I have 6 heart pigs. It is possible the additional weight could be fluid, when the vet listens it may sound like he is underwater on the stethoscope. Mine are all on Nelio tablets which are Benazapril (an ACE inhibator) and they have diuretic when needed too (Furosemide). It can be a bit of a juggling act with meds but once you find the right balance they usually do really well on them. An xray would be the next step so they can see if there is any fluid and also whether the heart looks enlarged. Some vets are happy to carry out a heart med trial to see if they make a difference and if they do then you have your answer.

Other heart symptoms include:

Laboured breathing, often look like they are nodding as they breathe
Rapid breathing
Blue tinge to the extremities (ears, nose, lips, feet)
Recurrent respiratory infections
Deep sleep
Hooting, sometimes followed by a cough
Random coughing, especially when eating or being held
Weight loss (failure to thrive)
Bumblefoot
Ascites
 
Do you have any idea which vet he will refer you to? My vet is an excellent Exotics vet in South Lincolnshire, she is on the recommended vet list on here :)
 
Thank you Wiebke.
Hi Helen, I was just reading one of your previous responses to another member about her piggy Cagney's medication so thank you for your help, I appreciate it. The vet was extremely careful with the stethoscope on all 3 occasions and said he couldn't hear any squashiness in the chest, around the heart, in the stomach (usual healthy squeeks & other tummy noise) and from his other organs. Saying that, in such a young pig, I imagine their bodies are capable of over-managing, much like when we're young & healthy, which can deal with these tell-tale symptoms to such a degree they're almost imperceptible.

My gut tells me it's heart though. And an x-ray will hopefully give me a conclusion.
 
It's Animates & the vet is Sarah Pellett she is an excellent vet I can't praise her enough. Straight down the A15 would probably take you less than an hour :)
 
Some vets may dismiss heart because he is so young but I have known of 6 month old pigs diagnosed with a heart issue after being xrayed.
 
Got an appointment just to chat with my vet tomorrow about a referral. Helen, just to manage my (and hubby's) expectations, have you a rough idea firstly how much an x-ray is, and the cost of the medication? Sorry to ask, but I need to be prepared & I'd like a ball-park figure in case I'm quoted silly money locally, in which case I'd definitely travel to Animates (above). Rest assured that cost is NOT the main issue here, but there's no getting away from it; it does have to be considered and budgeted for.

He's certainly not losing his smarts as he moved his little pigloo over the breakfast greens this morning and shuffled it along as he ate from the opening, rather like a shiny red tortoise. Funnily enough, I've always wanted a tortoise!
 
Aw clever boy, my Star does that.

It really does depend on the vet re the xray, mine charge about £46 but they are not an exotics practice so it could well be more. The heart meds are these:

http://www.vetuk.co.uk/pet-meds-prescription-only-nelio-c-21_804/nelio-tablets-for-dogs-5mg-p-5226

I spend about £50 a month on heart meds but have 6 of them on it. The tablets are 5mg and the standard dose for my pigs is 1.25mg a day. Some vets will sell Fortekor which is also Benazepril but is more expensive.
 
Really!? Wow, that's amazing - I thought we'd be talking 3 figures for the xray & £10 per week per pig. Well that's a relief, thank you Helen.
 
I would ask for the xray to be done conscious in case he is a heart pig.
 
Please be very careful about asking your vet for an official vet to vet referral - i.e. your vet contacting the other vet first to arrange an appointment. This means the new vet may have to charge "referral" prices which can be astronomical.
As your vet doesn;t know what's wrong, the conversation may be better as follows: "I was thinking of maybe taking him to x vets as they have a good reputation as gpig specialists - would you mind? They will probably ask for his records".....then ring and make an appointment yourself. That way you get charged normal consult fees instead of referral fees but you are not going behind your current vet's back.
x
 
Great advice, Helen, both about the xray (he's a reasonably placid boy so don't see any probs) and about the referral. Some of the reason I want to go back to my local vet is to see who they recommend. Maybe we have a specialist in Lincoln now. I'm pretty set on Animates but am keeping an open mind. Also, my vet asked that I keep him informed of how things go & I get the impression that he's got more than simply a professional interest in this case as he hasn't charged for the last 2 consults, just the metacam, and has asked us to call him with updates all 3 times (nice guy). It's a big training vet's hospital so I can't help thinking they'd be better to have an exotics specialist on their rota. I must feedback to them as this vet would be perfect. Interested, keen, honest, understands the urgency & frustration of small furries and does seem to genuinely want to get the animal better.
 
Helen, may I ask a couple of further questions please? I've just read an article in Small Furry Pets magazine (Aug/Sep 24) about a pig being diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM). The initial conscious X-ray revealed that his heart appeared to be enlarged so I was surprised that the report said that, "...a scan of his heart was therefore performed to investigate the significance of this increase in size. The scan revealed two of the heart chambers - the left atrium & ventricle were obviously dilated & not contracting properly." It then goes on to say, "X-rays will usually show generalised cardiac enlargement, sometimes marked left atrial enlargement, and lung changes consistent with pulmonary oedema if left-sided heart failure is present. A scan of the heart is therefore required to assess individual chamber sizes within the heart, movement of walls, valves & blood flow for a definitive diagnosis."

Have your brood had such scans and, if so, what kind of scan is it? Do you have any thoughts on that?

Also, I called my own vet to find out if they could do the X-ray locally which I could have in order to hurry things along. When I asked for the X-ray to be done without anaesthetic, the receptionist repeatedly said it would therefore be sedated instead. I'm calling them back tomorrow morning for the response after she's spoken with someone so, before then, I'd very much value your opinion on sedating a potential heart pig.
 
I can answer the scan bit, a piggy can be ultra sound scanned without a GA (At least my vet does this) so this might be a better way forward rather than x-rays. However not all vets have access to a scanner on their premises. I've had heart scans & they can measure & check that everything is normal, whereas an x ray can't show soft tissue :)
 
That's impressive it was covered in the magazine. None of mine have had scans but a few have had xrays, reason being that they were put on a trial of heart meds due to either symptoms or xrays and there was a vast improvement so a scan wasn't needed. I take them to a piggy clinic where the lady who runs it can hear heart problems on the stethoscope better than any vet I have seen and so she then advises me on my next steps with the vet. The improvement once on heart meds is usually pretty quick.

If your vet is unwilling to xray conscious I would go for a scan as a potential heart pig should not be given a GA. I encouraged my own vets to do conscious xrays on my first heart pig Nigel, who was very lively but they found a way of restraining him - taped him to the table. Some vets use a box or a little restraint bag.
 
Poppy's mum - did you have that heart scan done at Animates? If so, do you mind me asking how long it took & roughly how much it was? I'm trying to build up a picture of what's available, the comparative pros/cons and cost idea. While distasteful, there's no getting away from the necessary budgetary considerations!

Helen - that's really interesting. So an x-ray isn't necessarily required providing, I assume, that a vet is confident that the symptoms indicate heart issues so the potential side effects are less risk. Lucky you having your bionic-eared vet! I'm not going to mention that to hubby; he'd suggest putting Fergie on the pills & see what happens (he's not unconcerned, just a pragmatic man).
 
My piggy had a scan on her abdomen, I can't see it will be much different in cost to having a heart one done :) I've had 2 done recently on my piggy. one was £30, one was £35 for some reason. You have to add the cost of a consult too, about £25 I think, I haven't had a normal consult in ages, as my piggy has almost weekly visits :) I any case she will tell you the cost before you agree if you ask :)
 
Poppy'sMum said:
My piggy had a scan on her abdomen, I can't see it will be much different in cost to having a heart one done :) I've had 2 done recently on my piggy. one was £30, one was £35 for some reason. You have to add the cost of a consult too, about £25 I think, I haven't had a normal consult in ages, as my piggy has almost weekly visits :) I any case she will tell you the cost before you agree if you ask :)
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Thanks. Really useful to know.
 
If you haven't already, I would always recommend you get piggies insured through Exotics Direct. I have 2 of mine insured now after my oldest has cost me a 4 figure sum in vet bills over the last 2 years!
 
Just an update on Fergie: I've seen a different vet at the Veterinary Hospital (my local vet) to get a second opinion as recommended by my lovely vet Douglas Dick who I've seen previously.

Fergie's breathing has changed from a very obvious stomach breathing (like he's panting) and nostril sounds. It's a less obvious breathing motion but more crackly breath. He's breathing in pants of between 4 and 7 quick breaths, a breath's-length break then another round of pants. Yesterday he wasn't very hungry & has lost 52g since 7/9 so back to the vet today even though he's booked in for his x-ray tomorrow. The vet agreed his right chest is a teeny bit crackly but doubts he's in any immediate danger (as much as anyone could). The x-rays will be done under sedation (not anaesthetic) then emailed to Sarah @ Animates in Bourne if required. So, if the diagnosis isn't clear we can take Fergie there on Friday for her expert advice.

Pebble, thanks for your advice here. I felt much more confident following your guidance when discussing the potential referral/joint vet care.

Helen & Poppy's mum : not that it matters but, just for info, the sedation & x-ray's only £39 which is about the same as yours.

Just for my own future ref
Medication according to http://www.guinealynx.info/heart.html
Benazepril at 1 mg/kg orally every 12 hours.
Furosemide (previously frusemide) at 2 - 5 mg/kg orally every 12 hours (for cardiogenic or pulmonary edema).
Typically a positive response will be seen in 3 - 5 days
William V. Ridgeway, Jr., D.V.M.
Long Beach Animal Hospital, Inc.
(562) 434-9966

Also, just for info, Exotics Direct won't take Fergie which is fair enough.
 
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