Fighting? Please Help?

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Kaitlin

Junior Guinea Pig
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I got two piggies, the oldest is a big boy named Lalo. The other one is relatively young, named Harold. I heard that older male guinea pigs like younger ones better because they can easily establish dominance with little to no effort. They don't feel threaten. I got a big cage that doesn't have a top "lid" for more air and they can't jump that high. They have space, two little homes (A pigloo and a barn house) with two water bottles, two bowls of food and one big bowl of hay. So, recently, they usually chase each other and I've never had a problem with them, they loved each other from the start. It's been a good few months they've lived together and they had fun but now? Lalo chatters his teeth and makes a chirping noise while Harold does the same. I thought "Boy will be boys". The next day, Harold was chasing down Lalo. I started worrying and told them to stop. They listen good and went back in their separate homes. Well tonight? Harold cornered Lalo and Lalo stood taller than Harold and Harold did the same. They went at it. Lalo charged at him and they looked like a ball. Not biting but squeaking and hits heads or tummy's. I yelled in panic and touched Lalo. He darted off to his home and started making a very angry growl. I instantly put a divider in. And even if Harold isn't messing with him, Lalo always chatters his teeth from a distance and chirps. So, I don't know if Harold is truly the bully. Harold is normally energetic. Lalo likes to be lazy. So, they squeak to each other while Harold plays and Lalo lays down. Never had a problem before. Could it be that Harold is growing up and wants dominance? Even though the divider is in? They keep chirping and chattering. Harold even ran head first into it two times to get to Lalo. I love them both. They're both good boys. Very loveable and loving. What can I do?
 
Good morning!

How old are they? And how big is the cage?

Sounds like Harold is making a putt for top pig and challenging the hierarchy

Somethreads for you here to have a read of
Boars: Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
Bonds In Trouble

Could you add your location to your profile as it helps us tailor any advice if ever needed to your geographical location

Welcome again
Lee
 
Welcome! How big is the cage exactly? @Wiebke is very knowledgeable about anything guinea pig.
 
sport_billy said:
Good morning!

How old are they? And how big is the cage?

Sounds like Harold is making a putt for top pig and challenging the hierarchy

Somethreads for you here to have a read of
Boars: Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
Bonds In Trouble

Could you add your location to your profile as it helps us tailor any advice if ever needed to your geographical location

Welcome again
Lee
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sport_billy said:
Good morning!

How old are they? And how big is the cage?

Sounds like Harold is making a putt for top pig and challenging the hierarchy

Somethreads for you here to have a read of
Boars: Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
Bonds In Trouble

Could you add your location to your profile as it helps us tailor any advice if ever needed to your geographical location

Welcome again
Lee
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24 cm wide, 47 cm long and 14 cm tall. It's pretty big. And sure, I'll add it right now
 
sport_billy said:
Good morning!

How old are they? And how big is the cage?

Sounds like Harold is making a putt for top pig and challenging the hierarchy

Somethreads for you here to have a read of
Boars: Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
Bonds In Trouble

Could you add your location to your profile as it helps us tailor any advice if ever needed to your geographical location

Welcome again
Lee
Click to expand...
Lalo is at least almost a year or a little over. Harold is about 6-8 months. I tried to put them together again today but alas, Harold cornered Lalo again.
 
Kaitlin said:
24 cm wide, 47 cm long and 14 cm tall! It's pretty big
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I really hope that you got the dimensions mixed up, but if the cage really is that size then it is tiny, and this is most likely contributing to your boys fighting.
The cage is actually smaller than most hamster cages :(
2 males need to be in a cage that is at least 120cm long and 70 cm wide, and 140cm long (or bigger) is ideal.

Your cage should be large enough to have 2 totally separate houses, eating areas, water bottles etc. as well as a couple of additional items for enrichment.
So for now they must be kept apart until you are able to get a suitable cage.
C&C cages are good as they are pretty flexible in how they are laid out, so can be adapted to fit the space you have (for example I have mine in an L shape so it can go in the corner of a room).
Another advantage is that a C&C can be easily split if necessary (my original cage is now split into 2 after my 4 piggies fell out).
A good guide to cage size is here:
Cage Size Guide

Once you have a totally new cage set up, you an try rebonding them in a neutral area.
There is a good guide to this here:
Introducing And Re-introducing Guinea Pigs

Hopefully with more space they may still be able to live together.
Good luck.
 
I'm pretty sure you must have got your measurements wrong. A cage that size wouldn't have enough space for all the things you have in it AND space for your piggies to chase each other.
 
Guys, I did get the measurements wrong, don't worry, I completely mixed it up, I gotta re-measure. Idk what i was thinking when I wrote that. I was in a rush to get to work so, I must've been too much in a rush. Let me go re - Measure
 
I just messed it up with CM oh my gosh. My cage is 24 In wide. 47 inches long and 14 inches high.i feel so dumb, sorry guys
 
That sounds like a Ferplast 120 cage, like mine (approx 120x60 cm). It is just big enough for 2, I have had pairs of boars in mine for 5 years, but bigger would definitely be better and more space might ease tensions now that the younger one is no longer a baby.

I don't know if yours have fallen out too thoroughly to live together in one cage again ever, usually when they draw blood is a sign of that, but tussling like a ball of fur sounds pretty serious stuff. Best of luck, I hope yours will live together again.
 
Update: Harold is just wanting to be the Dom pig. And Lalos a big boy so, there's no way. I tried three times. First, Harold shoved himself in Lalos little house and I freaked out because I didn't want them to fight but it was after Lalo moved away, he started chatting his teeth. Second time, Harold chased down Lalo and they both chatted and Lalo started standing up taller while Harold stayed the same but just chatted. I tripped over my divider from panicking. Third time, today. I removed houses and they went to each other's side and started sniffing. Everything was going pretty good...until Lalo saw Harold eating his hay. Lalo went to Harold and started chatting. Harold started standing taller and made squeaking/chattering noises. Then, I just fed them and when I turned my back, I turn around to find them staring, face to face, through the the divider bars, chatting. So, I'm going to buy another cage. The same exact one. I'll put the cages beside each other so they don't feel lonely though. They'll both have more room to run around and play with toys and still communicate while having their own peace of territory. Whatever makes them happy and stress free. Thanks for all the help though, guys! ❤ They're just growing up
 
Hi. Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but as you have boars, if you keep putting them together and splitting them up, it will cause them stress because they have to start their bonding dance all over again. From your description it doesn't sound as though they are so bad that you need to split them (I'm not saying it won't deteriorate to that, but it doesn't look like they are getting the chance to work things through to the end). Chattering is perfectly fine during the bonding phase (mine still do it from time to time, and they are a well bonded group) Unless they are actually fighting, drawing blood or seriously going for at each other, just let it play through (scary I know, but if you don't they will never get the chance to find out if they could be cage mates). The links @sport_billy and @Swissgreys have given will help you identify what is acceptable dominance, and what is not. Don't judge piggies by human standards....when they are bonding and establishing hierarchy they can be absolutely horrid to each other, but the other piggy understands. All are NOT created equal in the piggy world, and it is perfectly acceptable for a guinea pig to say, I'm the boss, you will do as I say, I will eat first and choose the best sleeping place - even if it means turfing you out; and I will chase you and give you a nip if you don't respect my authority! The other piggy will then say SQUEAAAAAK, SQUEAAAAAAAK, which does not mean they have been hurt, it translates as 'OK, OK, you win I am inferior to you and I will do as I'm told'. And that, is what we call a well bonded pair of boars, believe it or not!
 
Thank you so much! The little ball fight they got in scared me out of my skin but I'll definitely try again and give them space. What should I do in a situation where one draws blood and is there any way to determine WHEN to jump in? I'm checking out the links now. I just want my boys to be happy
 
Boys are sometimes stressful to watch when bonding. Stressful for us but just normal behaviour for them. If they truly start fighting you will know.
Reading the dominance guides and behaviours will help you. It’s when mine started puffing air at each other (like a pfft noise) that’s when they really started fighting. :no:
 
Well, Lalo is called a "Bed head" guinea pig so, I can't tell when his fur is up but Harold's neck fur is standing up and Harold keeps chasing Lalo down, I'm freaking out by watching this, I don't want them to get hurt
 
I read the guide and it sounds like I should separate them. Harold is staying in his house, Lalo won't let him eat and Chase's him away when he tries to get a drink of both water bottles. That makes Harold corner Lalo and then they start pounding their feet, cleaning their faces and really chatting at it. I separated them by a divider and Harold seems happy. He even squeaks lightly at night for attention when I'm playing the game and he's never done that. He seems more energetic. And when Lalo and Him see each other, it's instant anger, chasing and chattering
 
Yeah, I don't think thank can be together. I left them alone and instantly Lalo charged at Harold and Harold starting sprinted away and they were growling and chatting and both stood up on their legs. I think Lalo is bullying him. I want to separate them but my father said that's a good way for them to die? Will they die if I separate them? I'm sorry I'm so panicked
 
Kaitlin said:
Yeah, I don't think thank can be together. I left them alone and instantly Lalo charged at Harold and Harold starting sprinted away and they were growling and chatting and both stood up on their legs. I think Lalo is bullying him. I want to separate them but my father said that's a good way for them to die? Will they die if I separate them? I'm sorry I'm so panicked
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They won't die if you separate them. But chasing is okay. As @Julie M said, you will know a fight when you see it. Do not try to separate a fight with your bare hands. Put something between them or use oven gloves or thick gardening gloves.
If it's definitely a non starter that they can be together, then their cages being next to each other is the next best solution, unless you are in a position to get them another friend each. They can interact through the bars so that they still have company. They will still be aggressive through the bars for the first few days or weeks, but that should settle down eventually.
Someone else has a post just now about their two, who sit beside each other through the bars, and pass each other food. They tried to re-bond them because they were getting on so well, and they attacked each other badly. @Scooby& Shaggy . So just because piggies don't want to live in the same cage doesn't mean they won't be friendly when they each have their own space.
 
So, I'm hearing mixed opinions. Should I separate because of how badly Harold is being treated or keep trying? This is the fifth time I've tried but I haven't left them alone for even 10 minutes bc I would panic. Harold seems happy when I separate them. But I'm not sure bc some are saying it's normal and some are saying it's getting bad
 
I would try to persevere with them together if you can..It is horrible to watch I know. As others have mentioned you shouldn't keep separating them.
 
Kaitlin said:
So, I'm hearing mixed opinions. Should I separate because of how badly Harold is being treated or keep trying? This is the fifth time I've tried but I haven't left them alone for even 10 minutes bc I would panic. Harold seems happy when I separate them. But I'm not sure bc some are saying it's normal and some are saying it's getting bad
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I've read back your posts but everyone seems to be saying the same. You may have misunderstood my last post, which was just to reassure you that if it doesn't work, they won't die, but if they haven't fought, keep persevering. I can't stress enough though, don't keep stopping and starting.
 
Okay, I'm going to try one more time. And I feel bad for separating them but, I'm new to guinea pig fighting and I didn't know it caused things to get worse. The other two times were bc they chased each other and got in a ball fight. So, I'll step away from the cage and give them space. Should I remove their piggie homes? And food bowls? Or just leave everything where it is? I've seen both of their teeth and I really do not want Lalo to attack Harold. But Harold is a little fire ball who wants the dominance. I have soft music in the background bc I hear that helps calm a lot of animals down. Idk about guinea pigs but it helps them sleep. I'll grab gloves before I do this. And if they get in a russle and fight, I'll seperate and order Harold a cage that should come in a few days. If they do end up getting along, when will it be best to leave them unsupervised bc I have work in the morning and I can't risk them fighting. I have work tommorow/today (it's 2:00 AM) so, should I try again when I have my day off or?
 
To reassure you my boys got in a bit of bother with one another yesterday..Dudley has managed to nip Harry.

It was horrible to watch and I was a complete wreck. After a few hours things calmed down. You wouldn't know anything happened between them.
 
Kaitlin said:
Okay, I'm going to try one more time. And I feel bad for separating them but, I'm new to guinea pig fighting and I didn't know it caused things to get worse. The other two times were bc they chased each other and got in a ball fight. So, I'll step away from the cage and give them space. Should I remove their piggie homes? And food bowls? Or just leave everything where it is? I've seen both of their teeth and I really do not want Lalo to attack Harold. But Harold is a little fire ball who wants the dominance. I have soft music in the background bc I hear that helps calm a lot of animals down. Idk about guinea pigs but it helps them sleep. I'll grab gloves before I do this. And if they get in a russle and fight, I'll seperate and order Harold a cage that should come in a few days. If they do end up getting along, when will it be best to leave them unsupervised bc I have work in the morning and I can't risk them fighting. I have work tommorow/today (it's 2:00 AM) so, should I try again when I have my day off or?
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You need to bond them in a neutral area (where neither of them have been) with a big pile of hay and some vegetables for a distraction. No hides until they’ve woken up from their first nap together. And then only hides etc with more than one exit. If all this goes well then you can put them both back into a thoroughly de scented and cleaned cage (change over and wash any beds etc. And re arrange the cage so it’s like a new environment.)
 
Kaitlin said:
Okay, I'm going to try one more time. And I feel bad for separating them but, I'm new to guinea pig fighting and I didn't know it caused things to get worse. The other two times were bc they chased each other and got in a ball fight. So, I'll step away from the cage and give them space. Should I remove their piggie homes? And food bowls? Or just leave everything where it is? I've seen both of their teeth and I really do not want Lalo to attack Harold. But Harold is a little fire ball who wants the dominance. I have soft music in the background bc I hear that helps calm a lot of animals down. Idk about guinea pigs but it helps them sleep. I'll grab gloves before I do this. And if they get in a russle and fight, I'll seperate and order Harold a cage that should come in a few days. If they do end up getting along, when will it be best to leave them unsupervised bc I have work in the morning and I can't risk them fighting. I have work tommorow/today (it's 2:00 AM) so, should I try again when I have my day off or?
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I think you should wait until you have plenty of time to see the bonding through. Don't do it now when you're tired.

It sounds like you're bonding in their cage? You need to set up a neutral area for bonding with no houses or bowls (but with food piles) and put them in a fully cleaned, rearranged cage once bonding is over :)
 
Oh, yeah, this has been taking place in their cage. I'm so sorry. I honestly thought it didn't matter except for the introduction bc the cage has both of their scent in it. I'll put them on my yoga pad. Would putting them in a big play pin be okay so they don't wonder too far? And I'll be sure to put a hay pile and one food bowl. And just wait for them to nap together if all goes well. Then clean up their old cage very well and rearrange bowls, add a hay holder and get two new hidies with two exits. So sorry about all of this, I don't want to come off as annoying or a dunce. I panicked and overreact sometimes, especially with my animals. Thank you all so much for the help! It means a lot and I'll keep posted
 
No need to apologise, we've all had to learn at some point. I'm still learning too! Currently trying to bond a boar with four sows. It is so intense at times so I can completely understand where you're coming from.

Only put one bowl in if you don't they will fight over it. It's best to give them as little to fall out about at possible...

Yes a play pen is perfect :)
 
kyliebowers said:
No need to apologise, we've all had to learn at some point. I'm still learning too! Currently trying to bond a boar with four sows. It is so intense at times so I can completely understand where you're coming from.

Only put one bowl in if you don't they will fight over it. It's best to give them as little to fall out about at possible...

Yes a play pen is perfect :)
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I agree except that I think youve been autocorrected. I wouldn't put bowls in for an introduction, but if you did, definitely more than one.
 
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