Fungal - are there any treatments which don't require sitting and plucking hair?

[Pandora]

Sorry to jump in with a question on my very first post, but i'm having an absolute nightmare at the moment

i've got 11 piggies, who for the last 5 years have happily lived in their outdoor hutches, even with the poor weather in previous summers, we've never had any skin troubles

my last case of mites was over 2 years ago now and only affected one pig, brought on by the stress of her unplanned pregnancy.
i've only ever had to deal with fungal on a small scale before - a sow i took on and was keeping in isolation when she developed it, she was treated with itrafungol.

a couple of weeks back i realised one of my boars had hairloss on his rear end, there was no flaking or scurf, so i thought it was either going to be mechanical hairloss caused by the other boars, or mites brought on by the stress of that. i dosed him with easimec and put him and his brother into a separate run away from he other boars, thinking no more of it. there was no improvement however and i realised i was faced with a fungal problem, which is where the nightmare started - it's now spread, with most of the pigs showing mild signs of it.


However, a couple of them were showing no signs at all - but when i bathed with gorgeous guineas kit and had a test tease of their fur, great handfuls came out of the first sow i tried it with and the same happened with a second yesterday.

i was in tears while i was doing it & had to stop as i just couldn't bare it, seeing all this hair coming off and the small and quiet, but still heart wrenching wheeks of my girl as i was giving her hair light tugs... it was just too much.
i like to think i'm a strong willed person, but it was so emotionally draining and a real shock to me how much it got to me, ended up walking around in a daze after it happened, lost as to what to do next.


i do like Chrissie's products, but i'm ordering some imaverol tonight as i need something that i know will work and i've read mostly good things about it, it can be harsh to the skin, but it seldom fails. and with having to treat so many at once, it seems to be the most cost effective way to treat them (though if you know otherwise, please, please let me know)

is it as important with the imaverol to pluck hair though?
i think this is the main thing i'm having trouble with. my piggies aren't exactly hand tame (i much prefer to watch them interacting with each other than force them to have cuddles etc. as they've never particularly enjoyed them)

and will it work as quickly as written?
i'm out of my mind with worry at the moment as the dog has been laying in areas where the pigs have been running since being infected, the runs have been shared by my rabbits as well
i was scratched to pieces by the sows during bathing (i did attempt wearing gloves, but kicking piggies and their claws just shredded them) and the caustic effects Virkon S has on skin has left my hands and arms feeling so sore and dry, i'm almost convinced that i will have caught it too.

I feel terrible that it's gotten so far with them

struggling to cope and have a headache right now thinking about it all!
Very sorry for the long post

any advice would be greatly appreciated, i'm very close, if not all ready at my wits end with it all

 

[Piggie Life]

I would take them to the vets if it's got this serious and isolate all effected pigs ASAP.

 

[Pandora]

That's the thing though - i did isolate the affected pigs when i realised what it was, but they've all likely got it now anyway (they've all definitely been exposed to it through being in contact with each other) so doing that now seems quite futile, they may as well stay where they are and get sorted. moving them is just likely to infect other areas, and to be brutally honest, i don't have anywhere else for them to go.
my "hospital" cages are already occupied, with the original pair i saw the problem in and the other with the second.

i may have over dramatised a bit - the hair loss patches are no bigger than a tomato and in just one area on each of the sows bathed so far, but when the fur was coming out it looked horrendous in a pile.
and one of my OAP piggies passing away in his sleep a day previous to treating the sow may have contributed to the tears.
The gorgeous guineas treatments seem to have worked on my boars, one of which had no problem, the other however lost a stripe of fur the width of a 50p, but running from leg to leg from around his rump, plus a 20p sized patch further up his right side.
but applying melt, shampooing, plucking, shampooing again & then drying 11 pigs weekly as well as finding time to nuke the cages with fungicide is just something i can't manage to do, there just aren't enough hours in the day


i don't mean to sound ungrateful to you for your post at all, Piggie Life,
Obviously if i can't sort it myself, i will go to a vet, but in the mean time i'm going to try the imaverol (which knowing my vet, i would likely just get this or malaseb prescribed) and go from there.
i'm just really wondering if anyone who has experience using it can shed any light on its use and effects
though this may not have been the best place to ask :red

 

[Suzygpr]

Unless you are experienced enough to know the difference between fungal and parasitic skin problems I always recommend getting a confirmed diagnosis from your vet - once confirmed dealing with fungal is usually straight forward as long as you are consistent with the treatments and use the right products on the caging, etc to prevent reinfection.

You can use Imaverol as a spray to deal with the spores etc in the cages, I prefer to use F10, though you do need to leave it to soak for an hour to be sure that the fungal spores are dealt with. Throw away anything that cannot be safely disinfected.

I have been using Imaverol for a year or so to deal with pigs that show fungal problems, ringworm in particular. I've been through all the other treatments including GG products and have found that Imaverol is the only thing that works for me.

I generally don't use any other product in conjunction with it as I don't like layering up chemicals on such a small body.

I soak each pig every 3 days for 4 treatment, diluted per instructions - if I feel the problem hasn't quite shifted I continue with another 3 treatments or if it is an isolated patch I use an antifungal cream (that contains terbin-afine). I have had only 2 pigs where the fungal had become systemic and they required itrafungol.

I apply the solution directly to the skin, dotting it over the body with a large syringe and massaging through the coat, as I won't put a pig through the stress of being dipped. If the hair is loose enough the come out with a light tug I do remove it as it is already 'dead' and the recovery is quicker once it is removed.

HTH

Suzy x

 

[fluff]

your best option is to dip each pig, they must be completly immersed in the dip(not just in and out) but keep them in the liquid and massage the liquid throughly down into the coat so every bit of the pig is soak incl the head,
DO NOT RINSE THEM AND ALLOW TO DRY NATURALLY.

 

[lauraboara]

Hello fellow North Yorkshire person! Just wanted to say that I had fungal amongst my boys earlier this year - actually only 1 had bald patches but obviously they all had to be treated. I was a bit daunted by the prospect of long treatment regime but with advice from forum and vet it was fine.

As per Suzy, got sorted with disposable gloves, apron, F10 for cages, Imaverol solution and drafted in a forum friend to help with applying the first round of treatment. Also had Surolan ointment from vet as there was a bit of bacterial infection from scratching - but that was specific to the case. I think if you get a plan and do a really thorough clean out with F10, wash anything fleecy on higher temp wash and then you may feel more in control of it. Let us know how you get on.

 

[MishImpossible]

Both my pigs are recovering from a fungal infection.
My first vet advised me to use surolan which cleared up one but not the other. The other was very stressed whenever we tried to put any topical medicine on him or touch him so he ended up getting very afflicted by the fungus and ended up much worse than the first pig.

My second vet had told me that there was an oral treatment he could offer but it would take a few days to come in and to use canesten in the meantime. Again, this was fine on one but not the other. Moose really hates to be touched or picked up. He will squeal and act as if you are trying to murder him.

The vet was trying to buy griseofulvin for me but could only find it for humans and it cost a lot of money. He managed to find another treatment which was similar (I can't for the life of me remember the name of it and I'm at work!) which was for horses. He diluted it down and we have to give it them one a day.

I was actually dreading having to administer this stuff by syringe because I see all the posts from people having trouble giving their pets medicine in this way. Knowing they didn't react well to being swaddled, I offered them the syringe whilst they were in their cage and as I slowly plunged down on the syringe, they lapped it up.

This is far the easiest treatment I've administered to them to treat this awful fungal infection and it appears to be (fingers crossed) working!.

Sorry for the long post and I hope it helps
x

 

[Pandora]

Thank you all for the advice

i've not had much experience with fungal problems, but due to early experiences i can spot a mite/lice problem fairly quickly - this doesn't fit either descriptions of those and hasn't responded to ivermectin.
there's also no itching whatsoever to be seen, something i would definitely expect to see with a parasitic problem, but i remember not seeing Clara itch when she developed her fungal problem a few years ago, but the hair re-growth pattern the first boar affected had matched what hers was like when i first got her - before the fungal problem took hold, so i'm certain it's fungal

i've only recently learned about F10, how does it compare to Virkon S?
as this is what i usually use.
looking at it, i'd like to give it a try, but having just ordered another kilo of virkon (as well as the imaverol) i've emptied my bank account bar all but £3.86 :red

I know it doesn't have such an awful effect on skin as virkon does - which is making it very desirable to me at the moment with my scaly, sore & cracked hands!

as for applying the imaverol, i was thinking that i would sit them in a bowl and sponge it over while making sure it's rubbed into their skin
though seeing the syringe mentioned above, i might give that a go, as i know a fair few of my piggies won't take kindly to being dipped at all and it will be a bit more precise to use on their face while avoiding their eyes than a sponge would

it was despatched today anyway, so fingers crossed it will arrive tomorrow and i can get to work, feeling a lot less panicked & stressed today knowing that it's on its way
i'll be sure to let you know how i get on

 

[Pandora]

Well everyone has had their first dip, 2nd ones due tomorrow and the day after and they all took to it quite well.
i've been using 2ml imaverol in 100ml of water for each pig and applying it with a syringe, does that seem like an adequate amount?
i've had to make up an extra 50ml of solution for a couple of the bigger boars to make sure they've had a good soaking.
this has been as well as drenching each hutch (4ft x 2ft x 1ft) with a litre of 2% virkon s in each level.

there's not a lot to see with them as most of them didn't show any signs of a problem in the first place, just minimal scurf, one or two scabs and easily pulled hair.

but there hasn't been any more chunks of loose fur coming out in my hand, so that must be a good sign and i'm hopefully treating most of them as a "just in case" scenario. it's going to have to be a case where i run the 4 treatment course, then wait and see if anything else happens with them i think, as there's nothing to really "watch" to see if it has healed. :-/

i've got the rabbits to dip today and it's something i'm most definitely not looking forward to, but unfortunately it has to be done

 

[christine]

Hope you get sorted soon. Just a question---Are fungal infections more common in piggies who are housed in wooden hutches?

 

[Pandora]

I've had mine housed outdoors, in wooden hutches all their lives, bedded on woodshavings and using hay from a local farm.

in 6 years this is the first fungal problem i've had arise, the only other time i've had to deal with one was on a sow who developed it while she was in quarantine before being introduced to the herd.

this one i believe may have arisen due to buying my shavings from another supplier as my original one went out of business.

it's enough to put me off using shavings though. i've never liked large flake (which is what these ones are) but this has also made me question the suitability of small flake shavings also.
as soon as i can, i'm going to another local supplier to see what hemp based alternatives they can offer me and at what prices.
i just hope at this moment in time as well that i can save my hutches as they weren't cheap to construct. and i won't be able to afford new accommodation for the pigs if they do have to go

 

[flips]

I use Virkon S and we use it at the rescue where I volunteer. Spray your hutches really well and leave the virkon to soak in and dry naturally.

I hope you piggy is feeling more comfy soon.

 

[Pandora]

thank you for that
I know the virkon is said to work really well disinfecting porous surfaces

there's always a chance it won't work though, but i've spent as much time as possible making sure i spray into every corner, join, crack & crevice in the hutches.

i've been using a slightly stronger solution too, to make sure they get a really good blasting - as a result, my fingernails have been stained a light pink colour rather than their usual natural white! |)

to be honest though, i'm feeling very disheartened with the situation, i'm worrying the imaverol won't work. I also spoke too soon about there being no further loose hair
(unless this is just the effect the dip has had on the infected hair since the first dip? making it looser?)

 

[Suzygpr]

Imaverol will bring out any lesions that have not erupted so it can look worse after the first treatment, stick with it and be sure to soak every inch of the pig, including inside their ears and allow to 'drip dry' - no rinsing, towel drying or hair dyers.

I use F10 as Virkon does not list that it is effective against fungal spores. It does list bacterial spores and fungus but it's the fungal spores that can lay dormant and re-infect.

Suzy x

 

[Pandora]

i think i read an indipendant test where it was effective against spores, but now i'm starting to wonder...
As far as lesions go, they didn't really have any, just flaky skin and hair loss/the hair came out incredibly easily at the root
No itching, one boar had a couple of very small scabs, that was it.
Are they okay to dry with scrunched up newspaper or hay to hide in? As this is what i've been doing as i was worried about the, getting a chill
Hope it's not messed up the whole situation more

I'm also stuck - i dropped the bottle of imaverol and wasted a few ml of it, i've had to wait for some money put in the bank to order more, that's only happened today but i'm going to run out before the new bottle arrives now
I've been in tears every day over it and now as well, which is why i'm sat down to calm myself.
And after this order i'm out of money completely
I'm panicing as if i can't fix this, then the rspca is full and i can't reach any rescues for support

I just don't know what to do for the best

I don't want to give them up and pass on a problem, but if i can't get them the care then need then it's probably the best thing i could do for them

 

[lauraboara]

Try not to stress too much - i know it is difficult. Lots of times I have read that fungal problems seem to get worse before they started improving - and that is certainly my own experience.

How much imaverol have you got left?

There are forum members around to support you and also the Piggy Bank if things get too difficult and you do find you need help rehoming. Fingers crossed for you.

 

[Pandora]

i'd hazard a guess at 20-25ml left
I need 8-10ml tomorrow for the three rabbits, then 14-16 for the sows and another two rabbits on friday

Then it's back to needing another 14-16 for the boars on saturday



I just feel sick. And absolutely stupid, i can look at things really positively one minute, then the next the tears come and all is hopeless.

What snapped me out of my funk earlier was the fact that the first two boars who were affected seem to be free of it now, no loose fur/bald patches or flakiness but they have another soaking due on saturday to make it up to 4 treatments total.
It's a small relief, but it's also no, in the fact that they need another soak

 

[Pandora]

sorry about the double post, but as an update I've put an order with express delivery in for another bottle of imaverol, estimated delivery was between thursday and monday - i'm really hoping it comes before the weekend, i might *just* be able to make it through friday on what i have left at the moment

as another plus, my pressure spray bottle arrived today so dousing the hutches with disinfectant just got a whole lot easier on my hands!
in a positive mood at the moment
really need to stop stressing so much, it's just such a worry when they're not at their best...

 

[Pandora]

turns out you are right, Suzy, i did some more digging around and found this -

The objectives of this study were to develop a method to produce spores for
testing when only mycelial forms were available and to develop a semiquantitative
testing method that used only infective spores from hairs, and not pooled hair samples
for testing. Ten isolates of M. canis were used in this study. Juvenile guinea pigs were easily infected using mycelial forms of M. canis and large numbers of spores were easily
harvested for testing. Eight dilutions of disinfectants were tested. Fungal culture data
were evaluated using an endpoint dilution at which there was 100% fungicidal activity,
i.e. no growth on the plates. The 10 samples showed identical results. Chlorhexidine and
Virkon® S were ineffective even when used at ×4 the manufacturer's recommended dilution. Lime sulphur (1 : 33), enilconazole (20 µL mL −1), and bleach (1 : 10) were consistently effective when used at the recommended dilution. In addition, lime sulphur
and enilconazole were 100% fungicidal even when the recommended concentration
was diluted 1 : 4 or ×4 as dilute as recommended.

Bloomin' eck. I'll be ordering some f10 as soon as i can then
Can it be used in the same way as the virkon?
Sprayed and left to soak in and dry? And is it any good as a foot bath and for laundry?

I've nothing to use as a stop gap for the moment either (we have bleach but it contains other cleaning chemicals and surficants
And i don't much fancy putting it on the ply anyway)
As for, the imaverol, i don't have nearly enough to spare to spare, i'm spraying 10 4*2*1ft hutches, two plastic cages and one 5*2*2ft cage
Which means a crazy amount being used.

This is an absolute night mare, thought i might be getting somewhere but turns out my mad/thorough disinfecting of the housing was all futile

 

[Suzygpr]

When using F10 it needs to be in contact for an hour before rinsing to effectively kill the spores. It has a long shelf life and the high concentration means it is very cost effective. Shelf life is 3 yrs, and when diluted can be stored for 6 months.

I use it as a foot dip when needed, I also have the hand gel for use between pigs.

When using Imaverol it's fine to allow the pigs to dry under hay, you can stroke out the excess by hand but not dry them off in any way.

Suzy x

 

[Suzygpr]

I forgot to add that F10 is available as a fogger, which may be more appropriate if your caging is in a shed or outbuilding.

Directions are - remove all animals, close doors and windows, activate fogger, leave to disperse for 10 mins before re-entry and fumes to clear before re-introducing animals.

Suzy x

 

[Pandora]

That's excellent, thank you very much
Edit: they're just outdoor cages unfortunately, so need to be sprayed inside and out mechanically, along with the concrete, stands, my shed, fencing and possibly the grass.

does anyone know the best place to buy F10?

when you mention the contact time - does the surface have to stay wet with the product or is it possible it could dry and still work?
the length of time it needs isn't really an issue as i've had to have the pigs drying in our recycling crates in the kitchen due to the unsettled weather anyway
and what dilution rate is best?

sorry, i'm always a massive bag of questions when looking into new products :{

if it needs to keep being re-wet i think i'm going to have to seriously look into re-homing some of them as i just can't afford to keep buying things, i'll probably go through the full bottle of f10 in a week with the rate i'm going.

The last thing i'd ever want to do is just pass on a problem but i don't think i have many options left.
i'm on a very low income at the moment and i honestly should have looked harder into placing them sooner than this, but it just seemed that when i tried before, no one else wanted them, so i just carried on and did the best i could for them. seems that's just not good enough though.

i never expected something like this to happen at the end of the day.
I honestly thought virkon was effective against everything on past advice and the wording of the label, but i was wrong about that. I'm now thinking that this had been caused by spores shed/carried by the sow (and her pups) from before as i started using the virkon on advice back then as i was told it would completely clean the cage and kill everything.

i better get on with todays imaverol dips, even though they'll be going back into infective cages :/

 

[lauraboara]

Try reptile shops for F10 eg Wild World Reptile shop. I think you can find in various places on interweb.

You only need a dilute solution so as Suzy says, it last a long time. You need to check the dilution on the product you get but 4ml in a litre is what my bottle says.
I ususally make up 500ml and in a spray bottle and spray the cages and then leave to dry whist the piggies are having a run.

 

[Pandora]

thanks for that, i've been using about 6 litres of virkon every day for spraying (so i'm running out of that too now)
If it lasts as long as 1kg of that does i'll be happy enough with it
Argh. What a mess though...
I'm onto ordering things on mums credit card now, not good!

The f10 info site links to a store so i'll likely get it from there
Something like £15 for a 200ml bottle

Right. Less panic, more work!

(one last question- the imaverol course will likely finish before the f10 arrives - would one extra dip be advisable if they're in hutches only sprayed with virkon?)

 

[Pandora]

This is a couple of pictures of one of my sows, Caramel

i think the "getting worse before it gets better" is very apparent with her as that patch started off the size of half a tomato just on her bum (where her dark agouti patch curves to the left and down to her bum) :{
her mum, Clarabel, has almost the exact same pattern of loss.

scary stuff. most of the fur regrowth there seems to be healthy as it doesn't come out easily, the odd bit does and it has really thick black roots coming out with it too, is this about right?

also something which seems off to me is that it's mostly affecting their backs, one sow has a patch on her chest, but there's nothing around eyes, mouths or noses
no crusty ears, but there are some crusty nipples about.
one of the boars has a patch just behind his right shoulder, in fact, the boars just seem to have random and much smaller patches compared to the sows. they've all had flaky skin, but there's no scabbing, or crusts to speak of.




the back is an area where i'd more expect to see mites and hair loss, but this just seems to have some very mixed symptoms., there was scurf, but no hair loss on it's own unless there was mechanical intervention (boars humping each other)
it didn't respond to ivermectin, there's nothing crawling in the fur and not really any more than normal itching, so it couldn't have been parasitic.
am i just second guessing myself now as i can't sleep?

no idea. while i'm here though, has anyone here tried the F10 "Germicidal Treatment Shampoo"?
i'm going to stick with the imaverol. but perhaps get some of this in for an emergency, but i can't find anything online to say how well it works for skin complaints.

 

[Suzygpr]

Well she certainly looks very good in the pics. Lovely clean skin, healthy regrowth It sounds as though the girls may have a moult going on too, losing that amount of hair, in that pattern can be down to a change in the temp, or sometimes from a trauma (I've seen it in a few rescue pigs when they have been very scared coming into the new environment).

From your descriptions, info and pics I would say that you have this very much under control and the F10 will finish off any residual spores making a reinfection unlikely. As Virkon is effective against active fungal I would say a single soak in Imaverol while the F10 is dealing with the cages will be sufficient.

Fungal can be a very frustrating problem, but with the right products it is something that is more of an inconvenience that a big scary nightmare and you've taken all the right steps - armed with the right products and knowledge you can now kick it's backside should it ever have the cheek to appear again.

Suzy x

 

[Pandora]

Thank you so much, for your thoughts Suzy, fantastic to hear i'm going in the right direction
i'm not sure i would have coped had i not signed up, you've all been brilliant at grounding me and giving great advice.
i spent at least half an hour each day on my bathroom floor crying my eyes out as i couldn't see an end to it all - what a fool i feel now!

one more question though, the hair that's regrowing, most of it is healthy but if i've missed any that isn't, will the problem re occur, or will the hair just fall out over time on it's own after the treatment has done its work?

as you mention the moult which could be caused by trauma, i'm a bit worried now that i might have caused it - my piggies are only used to having one bath a year (maybe two depending on their condition) so being soaked every three days will have all been really stressful for them. i know if some huge hands decided to grab me, put me in a bowl, turning me this way and that to squirt me all over with something wet, before tugging on my fur just to see if it came out - i'd be quite traumatised too!

is there any need to keep testing the fur in your opinion, or should i leave it?
i'm not sure i could get every last loose strand out without a herd of very traumatised piggies on my hands
(i already have my ivermectin on standby should mites arise due to the stress they've been under lately)

my F10 is ordered anyway (from viovet in the end) and should arrive by wednesday at the very latest, i might now owe my mum £40 instead of £20, but can't wait to try it out!

 

[Suzygpr]

With regard to continuing the plucking - The Imaverol will deal with the fungal and you've already dealt with the obviously loose hair, I think you can relax now

The traumatic moults I have in the newly rescued pigs have usually been from wild, unhandled pigs coming from very poor conditions, often dumped and recaptured, causing a great deal of stress. Those that are used to people, even when not overly used to being handled, cope well with bathing/treatments so I would suspect it's a seasonal moult given the high, humid temps we've had on and off. The fluctuating temps together with the fungal infection are more likely to be the cause rather than the handling they've had.

Last summer there were a number of pigs with seasonal moults, I had a few worried owners at the time, even my Lucy (peruvian) scared the life out of me and decided to drop her coat, all had the same pattern of hair loss as your girls but with no sign of any problems with the skin, no undue scratching or scurfing.

HTH

Suzy x

 

[Pandora]

good to know, thanks again

The imaverol really does bring out the previously un-known areas, perfect example of it today on squeeler (the boar with a small patch in his shoulder)
I got him out of his hutch to soak him again today (boars 4th dip) and noticed a bit of poor condition, unkempt looking fur on his lower back - all of it came out when going over it with an old flea comb, he's got a back much the same as Caramel above now.

He's still scurfy and has some red patchiness, so i think a few more dips would be a good idea for him
just hoping i don't have to buy another bottle of imaverol to do another full course with the sows and boars as i can't borrow any more money
I got a bottle of f10 shampoo for the rabbits that are in hutches further down the garden from the guineas & more likely to have been exposed rabbits.

Didn't realise yesterday was a bank holiday either, i thought my f10 would be packed and shipped then, possibly arriving today as I've run out of virkon

using vinegar & water as a stop gap today, hoping it arrives before thursday.

And just to complain for myself for a moment - my back is killing me from standing and leaning over a work top to soak them all
I hope the problem is solved soon, for the pigs sake more than anything, but mine too, ouch!

 

[Pandora]

still no blooming F10!
they only just shipped my order today, really not happy about that but it probably couldn't be helped

I'm just in the middle of the sows fourth dip

I've been checking their faces at each dip, there hasn't really been anything loose, but today there is a fair bit with some healthy re-growth behind it

Thing is they're really not liking me trying to tease it out (i've almost been bitten a fair few times today, which is understandable, but unusual)
It's also really hard to avoid pulling whiskers
Would it be okay to just leave this fur? Will it loosen more and come out on its own eventually do you think, or should i bite the bullet and just try getting it out?

To be honest i feel absolutely awful today and i'm not in the mood for upsetting them too much
(didn't sleep and feeling sick)

Good news though, there's been no more loose fur from anywhere else on them ( apart from a very small area on caramel which fell out like squeelers on tuesday)
And only very minor scurfing of the exposed back skin