Guinea Pig just won't bond.

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So a while ago I adopted 4 guinea pigs, life was good. 3 children and 1 adult the father of the 3. They came from a complex home with all sorts of differing animals, and I'm not sure how much they were handled and how well their environment was there. I would haste a guess as "unideal". The older one is about a year now, and the children about 6 months old.
They're all male which may be not helping the issue. The three kids? Lovely, love each other, get on right well. From day one dad was a little raucous, chased everyone around. I spent a few weeks observing which one he didn't dislike the most, whilst he was still in the "not violent" phase, which he unfortunately moved towards so i could split them 2 & 2. What has actually happened is we have 3 & 1 despite repeated attempts, and obviously the '1' is problematic. I tried different children with him and he was borderline violent with all of them at least once over the 2-4 days i tried them with each other (one of them i removed after about 30 hours as he was getting pretty hated & bullied hugely with bite attempts aplenty). None of this playful chasing around or mounting trying to assert dominance and hierarchy. Straight up attempting to bite them (and unfortunately, successfully at least once).

Does anyone have some advice to help this? Are there cases where guinea pigs straight up just don't want a cagemate? I am open to all suggestions currently, as whilst 3 & 1 is a very quiet day for me, I do feel very sad for the 1. He is eating & drinking as normal, constantly munching the hay as well as the daily veg, but I do suspect he is a tiny bit lonely. A friend has suggested adopting another single guinea pig who lost a cagemate and trying to bond one who isn't family, but I really don't want to do that unless we have a good chance of them gelling together, as at worse we turn the 3 & 1 into 3 & 1 & 1

All four of my guinea pigs appear to be healthy, they all eat & drink normally. Although the father occasionally does run around and chirp rather madly, possibly because he can hear his ex-cagemates still, if not see them.

 

[Piggies&buns]

I’m afraid this 3 and 1 situation is one possible outcome of attempting a boar quartet but the 3 part is the one least likely to work long term. (Most boar trios involving youngsters won’t make it to adulthood)
You could end up with a 2 and 1 and 1 situation anyway (or possibly all four single).

Your single piggy absolutely will accept another piggy but it will not be one of his sons (he isnt character compatible with them).
His cage must be side by side with them to prevent loneliness. He cannot be above/below or across the room from them.

If you do want him to have a live in friend, then the best thing is to contact a rescue centre and get on their bonding waiting lists, so that you can date him with other single boys and see if he can find one he likes before committing. That way you won’t end up with another failed bond and more single piggies (except if the bond between the sons fails and then there is the potential to need to get another friend from anyone left single from that).

 

[Urmel]

Some guinea pigs just don't get along, and family ties unfortunately have no bearing on that. It's extremely rare that guinea pigs are completely anti-social (it's not a part of their normal behaviour but might happen as the result of severe trauma), usually they just haven't found the right cagemate yet. That said, some are harder to get along with than others, and that's especially true among boars. It's not the ideal scenario, but most can live fairly happy lives on their own as long as other guinea pigs are in sight.

I have seen boar trios working well, but be prepared that you could see another falling out between the three that are getting along fine now as they go through puberty. I would wait at least for another few months or so before you make decisions on additional adoptions, because the situation might still change - you might have to consider how many separate groups you can realistically keep in case more bonds fail among the three. You are completely right that there's a good chance that your father boar won't get along with just any other guinea pig given his past behaviour, so I would get in touch with a responsible rescue that offers boar dating, or that allows you to exchange the guinea pig if the bonding fails at home. Rescues can often also advise you on temperaments, which helps a little with the chances. In my experience, boars that are used to sows often have more trouble getting along with an all-boar group, which could be a factor here. If you are unable to find a boar that works for him, you could think about getting him neutered and finding a sow, which has much higher success rates, although you would need to ensure that the sow is kept out of smelling distance from any boar group, ideally in separate rooms.

 

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Finally had time to get on the computer and reply again.
So originally the rowdy one was in a cage above the rest that was hastily put together with spare C&C cage tiles. I have now moved my living room about quite a lot and he is sat in a cage that is next to the rest.
Some interesting behaviour I have noticed now, as i work from home so I'm with them whenever i am not asleep basically. They will often gather at that side of the cage next to each other and have a good squeak and chatter at each other, i don't speak guinea pig so i don't know what any of it means sadly. The rowdy one does occasionally still chatter his teeth at the others, so he's still not exactly 'placid' with them. I have also read that once a bond breaks, it is likely broken forever. So there's no real chance of reuniting them, even if occasionally they do have a good chatter with each other across cages.

As for neutering and trying with a sow, that will be difficult. My sofa has been moved to the bedroom (I live in a flat, so not much space), and there is no way i can set up another cage in a different room so they're out of smell range of the other boars.
The set of 3 boars are still being friendly with each other, although they do occasionally do a weird wiggling of their rear against each other, which I presume is something relating to bonding or saying whose boss. However unlike the rowdy one that ended up alone, they never chase each other about in a manner that appears to be vicious or mean intent. If anything it appears to be like what I used to do in my youth and play chase with friends outside.

 

[Piggies&buns]

I’m glad you’ve been able to get him beside the others - it is what is needed for interaction.

Behaviours between the bars such as being at the bars/laying beside the bars are actually territory marking behaviours - literally patrolling to make sure nobody crosses the threshold.

A - Z of Guinea Pig Behaviours

The wiggling of their back ends is a dominance behaviour - it’s called rumblestrutting.
Chasing is also a dominance behaviour.
It’s not so much a friendly game of chase in a human sense - it is establishing and maintaining a hierarchy.
This is all fine while it is in mild realms and while everybody is happy with the hierarchy. Dominance only becomes a problem if one takes it too far and it tips that fine line into bullying or if two (or more) can’t agree on the hierarchy (and then it’ll be fights).

Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs
Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?

You’re absolutely right about a sow - you cannot neuter and introduce a sow to your single boy without causing huge risks to your trio if they remain in the same room as a sow

 

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The rowdy one used to chase people about and if he caught them give them a bite, straight to the red part of that dominance behaviour thread. So i am grateful that the 3 boars are still keeping it non-violent. I see no hint of either of them getting a little too bossy or mean spirited. If the worse happens they are in a cage that is large enough i can split it again internally with some more C&C cage pieces. There's also a way of splitting it so all 3 of them can still see & chatter to all of the others including Mr. Rowdy.
Because I live in a flat, the sizeable rooms are my living room & bedroom. My sofa (i never used that, i rarely have guests) is now in the bedroom so takes up the spare space i could have used for an extra cage. It appears that for all my research, these guinea pigs are doing their hardest to make it "not enough research" and make me look bad, hah. One alternative to ensure he has a chance at a happier (?) life, is to remove the sofa entirely, and set up a camp there for him and a sow, in a different room entirely away from the 3 boars.

Now Rowdy is in his own cage (they're all still without names, at this rate I might as well call him Rowdy), there is never any teeth chattering from the the 3 remaining boars, and the only chattering I hear is Rowdy doing his best to appear threatening behind his bars.

 

[Urmel]

I'm glad that you're doing your research now and are really invested in doing what's best for all of them! It sounds like whoever gave you these also did not really know what they're doing either, and you are doing the best you can in the situation you are in.
People are very wary of boar trios, but I've known three very happy ones, maybe that was a huge coincidence but I feel that they're not quite as rare as some might make you believe. So much is about temperament, not just their sexes. Introducing a sow to the room might just be the thing that breaks them up, it's absolutely not worth endangering their bond in this way. Having one pair in the bedroom is not super advisable if that's your only other room, not just for your sake but also for theirs. Guinea pigs can catch human colds (not all of them, but some viruses can cross over), so if you ever get sick it's good to avoid being in the same room as much as possible. Trying to find a second boar for Mr. Rowdy at some point sounds like a much better idea, even if it is a bit more work to find a good shelter and go through the boar dating process and everything. Once the others are around a year old, puberty is pretty sure to be over, so if you get a boar friend for Mr. Rowdy at that point, you can be pretty confident that the 2+3 arrangement will be for life.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Yes it is about character when dealing with a boar trio but unfortunately we do see many more boar trios come through the forum as failures than successes, hence our advice to err on the side of caution and have back up plans.

 

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I'm glad that you're doing your research now and are really invested in doing what's best for all of them! It sounds like whoever gave you these also did not really know what they're doing either, and you are doing the best you can in the situation you are in..

I did a lot of research beforehand too, even if these 4 piggies of mine are trying their hardest to make me look like I did not.
No disrespect to the local(ish) lady I got them from, but her home was rather cramped and filled with a lot of animals, ranging from birds to a dog. I imagine the guinea pigs were not ideally cared or caged sizably there, and the dog appears to have had free roam of the house and irritate the rest of the animals she kept. She was very upbeat and had a pleasant vibe though, so I've no reason to suspect anything bad going on. I think she just wasn't prepared for her two piggies to turn out to be not the same gender, then have a litter and wanted shut before they grew.
It's rather adorable when they sit next to each other in the different cages having a good squeak with each other, even if it is just essentially border patrol. It's nice to see them together in a way, and not entirely ignoring each other, so hopefully Rowdy isn't feeling too alone and is still 'with' his people in a way, until I can figure out the best way of proceeding and either trying to find him a cagemate or making sure he can always see the others.

I am thinking of buying more C&C cage pieces, and building it off the floor so they're more level to me instead of on the floor. Maybe if i am not towering over them walking past, they won't run away scared half the time? It'd also mean i could use under the cage as a storage area for their hay and othersuch.
My past experience was with Rabbits & Degu, and i have to say, it did not prepare me adequately for Guinea Pigs. I even have a diploma in animal care that isn't doing much here, although that was in 2006 so maybe I just forgot it all!

 

[Piggies&buns]

I keep rabbits (as well as piggies) and have done so for over 35 years. Piggies are totally different to rabbits!

 

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I keep rabbits (as well as piggies) and have done so for over 35 years. Piggies are totally different to rabbits!

As I said, I did lots of research beforehand. I didn't go into this thinking it'd be the easiest thing ever after rabbits.

I cleaned them all out earlier, amazing how much urine 3 guinea pigs can gather. Tried to do a weighing session, got bit by the rowdy one, he was not a fan of being weighed, I know the sentiment well but i don't bite the nurse. I'm beginning to think this one needs some chill pills. Everything is going well weight wise, was worried i was over feeding rowdy with him being on his own and having to portion out 3 + 1 in meal sizes, and with him no longer contesting others for food.

I find myself at a loss, I have to be honest. I just don't know what to do and what will be best for him. I really don't want to keep him alone (i say alone, he can see the other 3), but all possible paths have massive potential failure points.

 

[Piggies&buns]

The very best for him to have a friend - and your only option for that is to get a fifth guinea pig.
The way to get a friend without the risk of failure is with the help of a rescue centre - they will ensure compatibility and that acceptance had occurred before you bring them both back home.
Don’t forget that if he had a friend, then his cage needs to be a 5x2 c&c or 180x60cm.

But that means you’ve got to be able to cope with five guinea pigs (potentially even more if the trio don’t make it and you need anyone left single to have a new friend). If that isn’t an option, then keeping him (or any pig left single) side by side with the others is perfectly fine.

 

[Mrs Tiggy Winkle]

Maybe if i am not towering over them walking past, they won't run away scared half the time?

Have you tried a cover like an old sheet over half the cage? That way they wouldn't see you "towering over them" quite so much. Maybe easier and quicker than moving the whole cage set-up off the floor? Some guineas will run away scared for months, it's instinct and I don't imagine it's the biggest problem your guineas are facing right now.

I find myself at a loss, I have to be honest. I just don't know what to do and what will be best for him. I really don't want to keep him alone (i say alone, he can see the other 3), but all possible paths have massive potential failure points.

I realise from reading here on the forum that it can take a good while to get a spot in a rescue, probably especially for a 'difficult' guinea, but could you consider getting Rowdy on a rescue waiting list somewhere? Maybe you could even ask if they could move you up the waiting list if you got him neutered? Because he could then do his 6 week post neutering time with you and then I presume it would be easier for a rescue to give him a spot just in terms of capacity. Neutering would make a difference in Germany, but for the UK you need to ask someone here on the forum or directly at a rescue. Neutering is also a cost-factor of course but it would be like a donation to the rescue. I say this also because you mention how much urine 3 guineas produce - yes, exactly! Caring for 5 guineas in at least 2 different groups but potentially 3 different groups makes lots of pee and poo and lots of work and lots of rubbish to dump somewhere!

It may not feel easy to give a guinea up for rehoming but sometimes it is the best option for the guinea, so long as you can trust the rescue. I have had to give up guineas before when for whatever reason everything became too much for me or after a bond fail (like when a very capable neutered boar of mine passed and one of his ladies went hay-wire and attacked every other guinea in sight except her long-time elderly sow-friend, whom she however completely ignored - up until then my hay-wire sow had showed no problems whatsoever) and it was heart-wrenching for me but the best option for the guineas.

Of course Rowdy isn't really difficult, it's just that up until his time with you I imagine that his life was difficult and you're seeing this in his behaviour. It's OK to give him up to people who can care for him better, who have more space, more knowledge, possibly a suitable partner...

Good luck.