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Guineapig Waiting To Pass Stones

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Connie

Connie

Adult Guinea Pig
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Hi guys.

I have a piggy named spice, who is currently sitting around waiting to pass two/three tiny stones. He passed one with a teeny bit of help from the vet yesterday, (it was right near the end of his urethra already) and as it was larger than the remaining stones the vet seemed confident he would pass these others by himself. I use great western exotics vets in Swindon, they are the exotics referral specialists for the area so I am confident in their ability.

He was taken to the vet after i spotted blood in his urine and he was squeaking while weeing. He has had issues with calcium deposits before (admittedly that was 2 years ago and since then he has been fine while on a carefully controlled low calcium diet)

His urine has been sent for analysis to see if there is also any infection present etc and we are expecting these results back tomorrow. So for now he is at home with 0.3ml metaloxicom twice daily, 10ml pearl barley twice daily, as much water as i can syringe into him, some top up food (although this is a tricky one as it contains more calcium than his normal pellets as they seem impossible to mash into a paste for hand feeding). He still seems very bright and happy, bubbling around, rumble strutting eating hay and pellets (the limited amount that he is aloud) and veg.

Obviously it has been very hot today, i have kept his fluid intake as high as possible with about 15ml of water and 20 ml of pear barley going in today as well as some cucumber. Obviously the vet said to watch out for him wee wise as the main risk of waiting to pass the stones (although it was her prefered treatment) was a blockage. And to make sure he is still eating. He seems to be eating fine, but has had some top up anyway, however his poos today have been misshapen and a little small, and he only seems to be weeing a very small puddle at a time (maybe 0.5ml). He doesnt seem to strain at all when urinating, and does a couple of these little wees every half an hour or so.

He is not unhappy for me to touch the area or get his penis out to check it, or to generally feel his abdomen.

I guess my question after all that, is does this all seem normal? Has only had a piggy successfully pass stones like this before?
 
I'm not entirely sure what is normal but I am wondering if you have tried blending the pellets?
 
Hello,

Sounds like an ok way your vet it dealing with things, it does depend on how big the stones are, but as an exotics referral practice i'd probably trust their judgement on this. Your keeping water intake up which is good to. For an average 1kg guinea pig a daily maintaince rate for fluid is 100ml a day. But obviously they get quite a bit from veggies too. The only other things i could possibly suggest chatting to the vet about is getting some drugs to relax the bladder and urethra. This may not be what the vet wishes to do, so best to talk to them. In cats with this problem we usually use diazepam (valium) and other drugs too to help relax them. It might be worth upping the pain relief too if hes still very uncomfortable, it might be worth considering tramadol. Other than that i can't see there being another way of getting the stones out if they are already in the urethra neck other than surgery but if hes passed the biggest then fingers crossed he will pass the others.

Hope this helps.
x
 
Cheers, yes as they were currently in the bladder she did discuss the possibility of an operation but he is nearly 4 and as they were so small and its an issue hes possibly likely to have again she was keen to avoid that if possible. I really would like to avoid having to put him through a bladder stones op, as I suspect this wont be the last time he has stone issues and I definitely wouldn't be up for putting him through continuous operations. I have been washing his cup full of veg in water, in the hope that will get more into him. Hes happy to take quite a lot of the pearl barley but puts up more of a fight for plain water. Anyone got any ideas as to how I can make it more palatable for him? as I'm pretty sure hes choosing not to drink much for himself.

I separated the boys last night (just within their own cage) so i could keep an eye on spice's output overnight and there was both lots of lovely wees and poos (nearly 50 as it happens) so I am more satisfied with his output, the poos are the right colour and consistency if a little smaller than usual and the wee puddles were large so I'm pretty sure hes getting enough fluid into him between the veg and the fluids.

Thanks for the info about the antiinflamatories, I will mention it when I next speak to the vet hopefully some point today for the urinalysis results. Thankfully the pain relief seems to be enough for him, as he is no longer squeaking when urinating and seems brighter in himself.

On a side note, I'm 5 days overdue with baby today, so this has come at probably the worst possible time ofcourse!
 
Veggie Glucosamine or Cystease may help too. Also it would be an idea to look at his diet if you are feeding a pellet that is high in calcium and he is having high calcium veg regularly though it does sound like you are on the ball with that already.
 
The vet seemed open to me using things like pearl barley to help. How is cystease administered/ how often and how would i go about that? does it have to be prescription?

Sadly he is already on oxbow cavy cuisine. This is the best one I have found available in the uk, I tried JR grainless from zooplus and I'm pretty sure thats what started this whole episode as thats when he began having discomfort urinating again. Its so frustrating as I'm so careful about stopping this happening, and have managed a whole two years before these have come back with a vengeance.

Veg wise they usually get cucumber, celery, bell pepper, carrot peelings (and the top and tail) of two carrots, the strings of 4 green beans or the top/tail of fine beans etc (these tend to depend on what we are eating) but I avoid anything high calcium at all costs.

Also they have fresh grass from my mums periodically at the right time of the year.
 
It sounds like you're doing all the right things. You may not notice the stones passing if they are really small. Keep up the fluids.

P.S. Hope jr decides to make an appearance soon - the last bit is the worst. x
 
What made you think the JR Farm caused it, as far as I have found it is a low calcium pellet compared to many? It does have a lot of fruit in it though which may not help. The Oxbow is better than most UK brands but is full of molasses. My choice for a bladder pig would be either of the following:

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/small_pets/food/guinea_pig/bunny/195679

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/small_pets/food/guinea_pig/vitakraft/262148

I feed the first one, it has the most natural ingredients I have found in a pellet and lower calcium than a lot of the commercial brands, no fillers and no molasses.

As for the Cystease, it is given orally. I think this link is correct but is ages since I have bought it. Your vet should stock it though too.

http://www.vetuk.co.uk/pet-cystitis...stease-urinary-tract-support-for-cats-p-10634
I use this instead at a dose of 250mg a day (I worked up to this dose from the standard 125mg a day)

http://www.naturesbest.co.uk/vegetarian-glucosamine-hcl-750mg-p539/?src=bngluo

Both Cystease (and similar products) and Glucosamine coat the bladder wall.
 
Stones usually develop over a longer period of time. So it might just have been grumbling on for a while without you knowing about it. How much pellets do you give?

Good luck with the baby by the way, cant imagine what its like for you in this weather.

x.
 
Yeah given that i have the first one and its a lot smaller than a pearl barley grain theres no way i would notice a stone passing in fitch bedding - which makes for a hard time working out whether he has passed them and is better or not sadly!

The symptoms appeared just a couple of days after starting that feed. It might be a coincidence, but usually he starts whining when peeing a day or so after having anything with high calcium in it (ie if spinach was fed) and he began to whine then, so i took him off the feed, a week later there was blood in his urine and the whining returned so off to the vets. I know its supposed to be low, thats one of the reasons I decided to try it. I will look at the other pellets, but they do seem to have a higher calcium content than the oxbow and I am generally quite happy with that (there is also quite a large price difference, which shouldn't matter but I'm not sure i can fork out to try another pellet that might set him off) They only get one small handful of pellets a day between the pair of them. Mostly what they eat is hay hay and more hay! The vet seems to think they may have formed due to an infection changing the PH of his urine, urine analysis results are back and he has an antibiotic resistant bug in his system so am waiting to speak to the vet about that (hoping he will be calling any minute).

Thankyou for the glucosamine info helen, I will definately try it.

And thanks for the good luck, unsurprisingly this weather is pretty pants for being so big and pregnant but i would rather baby waited until spice was feeling better as I'm reluctant to leave him (even if my sister would take good care while I'm gone, we all know its not the same when they are poorly)
 
Hope Spice does ok. Hot summer pregnancy brings back memories of carrying my son, 18and a half years ago! Flippin' uncomfortable so I sympathise with you! I had a very poorly dog at the time too, diagnosed with cancer and I willed baby to stay where he was for a while. Took it too far, was two weeks overdue and 48hrs to deliver! Good luck with both piggie and bump!
 
Having finally cornered the vet today, spice is now on an injection a day of antibiotics (Amicin or Amikacin) to be administered once a day for 10 days (which we had a rather traumatic experience trying to administer when we got home, but thats another story for another day.) The vet ran through the risks of this drug, (kidney damage if dehydrated while taking it) but it is the most likely to be effective against the specific strain of bug in question. Am hoping as its injected it shouldn't affect his appetite. Anybody else had experience of this drug before?

Am hoping that by now spice should have passed the stones, and as he appears to be peeing like a trooper again with no blood and no pain noises these antibiotics should kick the infection and he will be on the mend (she says, secretly expecting everything to take a turn for the worse).

Am still struggling to get spice to drink by himself from the bottle, but as I am getting about 45mls of liquid into him per day plus wet veg thats then washed, I am hoping he is getting enough. We are trying the water sweetened slightly with apple juice tonight and he loves that from a syringe I am hoping he will figure out thats whats in the bottle too and drink a lot more of it.

Still no baby though. Will be going in for an induction on Wednesday hopefully if she doesn't make an appearance before that.
 
:luv:
Glad you've gotten somewhere with the vet. Are you having to go to the vets daily for the injection?
Hope all goes weld with the baby. Keep us posted!
Best wishes, Helene.
You will have to excuse my best wishes icon going to the top of post here, seems to be a problem I have and I haven't solved it yet!
 
No we have been sent home with needles etc. Its not too difficult to do as its just into the scruff of the neck, but the first one went rather wrong and i ended up shooting it out all over his fur and not actually into him, so now I will have to go and pick up a replacement at some point. Its not something I would agree to again very fast though, as its definitely a two man job with someone else holding him still and I don't like that hes going to associate me with that pain really.
 
Connie said:
No we have been sent home with needles etc. Its not too difficult to do as its just into the scruff of the neck, but the first one went rather wrong and i ended up shooting it out all over his fur and not actually into him, so now I will have to go and pick up a replacement at some point. Its not something I would agree to again very fast though, as its definitely a two man job with someone else holding him still and I don't like that hes going to associate me with that pain really.
Click to expand...
Aww, I'm sure he won't remember the pain and who administered it when he's well again. Or perhaps you hold him, and get someone else to do the rotten deed! Hope all goes well and he's fully recovered soon xx
 
me again! sorry ive been crazy busy since Mia-Rose was born, spice has had an operation to remove these stones and finally seems to be on the mend, but now my attention turns to stopping more from forming and repeating the procedure wouldn't really be fair to spice, so am hoping to do all i can to prevent. the vet has talked about using potassium citrate, but doesn't have any in stock as they have it on back order. has anyone else used this and where did you buy it/how did you administer?
 
Hi there, sorry I can't help about Spice's treatment. But I would like to congratulate you on the birth of Mia-Rose, (lovely name). And to wish Spice a stone free future. You know you are doing all you can and Helen105281 or Abi Nurse who are in this thread will probably give you some sound advice for treatment. They have never let me down. You could try vetmed an online direct 'store' for vet medicines. I just got 2 massive packets of critical care from them at much, much less than the vets sell them for. In fact usually you can only get the small packets at around £15 from vets. Because it is such a good staple first aid box essential for piggies and when you have a tiny one like me you have to feed twice daily as supplement to get her to where she should be, you can't go wrong! They do all meds you get at vets, you may need a prescription and give insurance details if Spice is insured but its well worth a look.
Good luck, welcome to the world, little Mia-Rose and happy mothering to you Connie.
 
Congratulations Connie.

Glad Spice has had a successful operation. I don't have any experience of potassium citrate but hopefully others who have will come on the thread. I personally would be looking at introducing vegan Glucosamine which works the same as products like Cystease and coats the bladder (I dose at 250mg a day). I would also change the diet so that it is low in calcium. I also feed a low calcium pellet from Zooplus called Bunny Guinea Pig Basic and the only veg I feed is cucumber, celery, green beans, spring greens, coriander and peppers and all in very small amounts. They have endless amounts of hay.

There is so much information out there on preventing bladder stones and a lot of it is conflicting. The plan I follow was put together by my friend and has been approved by a number of vets. She has never had stones in any of her own pigs. My Maddie did present with a stone but it was shortly after starting the diet and was we think the result of her previous diet.
 
AMIKACIN
Amikacin is an aminoglycoside anitibiotic like gentamycin - it is the strongest and least used antibitoic for guinea pigs (and humans) and does indeed have possible side effects of nephrotoxicity (kidney damage) and can cause hearing loss . I am pleased that your vet did cultures before prescribing it ...and also glad they did do cultures that discovered the usual antibitoiiocs (baytril/speptrin azithromycin etc) would clearly not have been effective.

I have had 3 pigs on gentamycin by injection for ear/eye infecxions with multi-drug resistant Pseudomonas (and yes - they wouldn;t take it from me so I went to the vet each day to get the injection done). Never had any problems with gut disturbances....or kidney function. (Hearing loss is another matter because we were in any case dealing with middle/inner ear infections and ruptured eardurms)


POTASSIUM CITRATE
Potassium citrate is now less commonly available as a cystits treatment than previously.
You can still get this here:
http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/potassium-citrate-mixture/prd-lh0

Why use it? In theory:
a) The citrate ions compete with carbonate ions in the urine to combine with the calcium and form a soluble salt that is flushed out. That's valid for guinea pigs too so there is a logical reason for giving this product
b) However - it also serves to neutralise (de-acidify) the urine to prevent the stinging pain. Good for humans whose urine is quite acidic but not for guinea pigs. Guinea pig urine is already very alkaline (and probably why they are so prone to stones in the first place). Making a guinea pigs urine even more alkaline could be counter-productive to preventing crystal/stone formation



PREVENTING FUTURE STONES
I agree with Helen - much of the advice is conflicting and there is no real research in piggies to understand the real mechanisms of stone formation and what can be done to prevent it. All suggestions are anecdotal and often specific for a particular pig. As well as what Helen has suggested you need to be sure that you are separating treatments to relieve chronic cystitis/bladder inflammation from those that (theoretically) can actively prevent stone formation.
Most guinea pig stones consist of calcium carbonate (90%). However a small percentage may be calcium struvite (resulting from an infection) calcium phosphate or calcium oxalate (spinach is high in oxalic acid). All of these compounds are insoluble in guinea pig urine (unlike calcium citrate which is soluble and therefore peed out)

So typically you can aim to:
a) reduce calcium so less is excreted to form insoluble salts - Ca/PO4 ratio diet as above, beware veggies and consider filtred/bottled water
b) acidify the urine so it doesn;t encourage the precipitation of insoluble calcium salts - no known method at present
c) provide a competing soluble ion (ie citrate) to the insoluble carbonate (hence potassium citrate)
d) reduce oxalate excretion (cut down on spinach, beetroot etc)
e) keep urinary tract free from inflammation and bacterial infection to reduce possibiity for struvite and sludge to form - cranberry, glucosemine, antibiotics,

One other remedy recommended on guinea lynx is the chinese herb shi lin tong - again only anecdotal for a couple of cases.

HTH
x
 
Thankyou so much for the answers guys! Spice is already on a low calcium diet, He never has any high calcium veg. I will try those bunny thingy pellets though as currently hes on oxbow which is also low calcium. I will try the glucosamine and the potassium citrate I think, as he seems so predisposed it cant hurt to give it a shot.

I was advised that beetroot was good for bladder piggies, but you are suggesting to cut it out? I am missing something here I think as hes been having a slice of beetroot per day at the moment. They usually have a little carrot (peeling occasionally), celery, cucumber, pepper, and some beetroot. Sometimes they get green/runner beans too.

I dont have a dose for the potassium citrate yet as my vet said if I managed to get hold of any to just ring up and we can discuss :)
 
Fresh uncooked raw beetroot is fine. Usually hard to get hold of in the raw but Morrisons sell it. I read it helps bind the calcium for them to pass it naturally :) I think the key is plenty of water, give syringe fulls on top of his normal intake from a bottle, should be filtered tap water ideally :)
 
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