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Help Before Op Please - Macky Losing Lots Of Weight & Stone Is Possibly In Ureta

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PammyRay

PammyRay

Junior Guinea Pig
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Hello
Little Mac who was diagnosed with a bladder stone in November is poorly again :(.
Back then he weighed 1250g yesterday at the vets he weighed 980g and today 950g I'm so worried. After various examinations; teeth, tummy, hind legs, heartbeat, temperature and a few x-rays yesterday and some discussion the vet (a lovely one who has been recommended to me on here) thinks his bladder stone is stuck in his ureta - the tube between the kidney and the bladder, probably quite painful. We have decided to try Mac on some tablets for a few days to relax the muscles so the stone can shift down to the bladder which is an easier/better operation. I will receive those in the post tomorrow as the practise didn't have them in stock and is an hour and half away from me.
In the meantime Mac is on 0.26ml metacam and I am giving him pro-C probiotics and feeding him Oxbow critical care although today is the most I've been able to give him in one go so far about 12mls. He is eating for himself but I would say not as much as usual and his water intake is a bit down too, I'm really worried that he has lost another 30g or so overnight and I really want to maintain his weight before his operation, which he is booked in for next tuesday 27th.
He's really keen to eat veg, trying to climb the walls for it so I'm not sure if I should keep giving it to him or limit it?
He seems weak in his hindquarters, slightly shaky on his legs when he trys to stand up on my lap and walking around cage - could that be pain from his kidneys? He's taking longer to eat/chew than usual and his poos are not being released from his bum properly so we are getting them out - he isn't suffering from full on impaction though. Last week he did some poos that were strung together.

Is there anything I can do besides what I'm already doing to keep his weight up? I've read on here that bananas and oats may help? Which oats, and how given?
I've also read on 'Lynx' that Barley water can help with kidney problems.
Is there something I can give him to better hydrate him?
I'm ordering some oxbow vitamin C today to start that too.

He's such a strong little piggy (who now looks like a baby compared to his brother pickle 1350g!) with such a sweet nature, I really want to do everything I can for him. xx (this is a pic of him with his 'daddy' back in spring last year)
IMG_5745.webp
 
The weight loss is because of pain. Please rather top him up with hand feed (fibre) than with empty calories that come off as quickly as they go on. While the weight loss is massive, it is not yet in the danger zone, so take a deep breath! The weight should come back on once the stone is out.

It is very important that he gets plenty of water. Please syringe him 2-3 daily, as much as he will take in each session to help flush out the kidneys and ureters. About 0.5 ml (half a small syringe full) is roughly one mouthful, so you are not in danger of things going down the wrong way. Mildly diuretic foods like cucumber, lettuce or fresh grass and dandelions can also help, but you need to be careful to not overfeed, as that can cause diarrhea.

Barley water or glucosamine/cystease/cystaid can indeed help to protect the walls of the urinary tract system and keep any inflammation down.

Here are our diet recommendations for urinary tract problem piggies; the autor has been dealing with kindey stones.
https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/threads/complete-hand-feeding-guide.115359/
An alternative is the limiting the diet to just the veg and amounts listed under "daily veg" in this thread: https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk...or-a-balanced-general-guinea-pig-diet.116460/
 
Thanks so much, I worry that we still have just under a week before the op and at this rate of weight loss... hopefully the tablets will flush the stone quickly.
I'm not sure I understand what foods the term 'empty calories' refers to, can you explain please?
He is really enjoying cucumber in particular atm, how much is too much?
thanks x
 
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PammyRay said:
Thanks so much, I worry that we still have just under a week before the op and at this rate of weight loss... hopefully the tablets will flush the stone quickly.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by empty calories and what foods this term refers to?
He is really enjoying cucumber in particular atm, how much is too much?
thanks x
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I have no clue about this, I just wanted to say get well soon Macky! Sending healing squeaks, popcorns? and healing vibes from my piggies and me. Obviously not me squeaking and popcorning! He looks like a very handsome man piggie!
 
PammyRay said:
Thanks so much, I worry that we still have just under a week before the op and at this rate of weight loss... hopefully the tablets will flush the stone quickly.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by empty calories and what foods this term refers to?
He is really enjoying cucumber in particular atm, how much is too much?
thanks x
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Oats can cause bloating in frail piggies. Too much fruit can cause mouth and lip sores. What he really needs is as much fibre as you can get into him; that helps to keep the guts steady.

You can give your boy more cucumber if he likes it so much, just stop as soon as the poos start to go soft and a touch squishy; you know then that you have reached the limit of what he can cope with.
 
Maisy and Poppy said:
I have no clue about this, I just wanted to say get well soon Macky! Sending healing squeaks, popcorns? and healing vibes from my piggies and me. Obviously not me squeaking and popcorning! He looks like a very handsome man piggie!
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ah thank you for the well wishes and compliment! I've told Mac I want to see him running around on the rug, popcorning away soon so I'll pass on more popcorning energy! Both man and piggies are very handsome in my opinion ;) and very sweet to boot! x
 
Does anyone know if it is safe for me to give Mac another dose of Loxicom? he is prescribed 0.26ml once a day at the moment but is clearly still in discomfort and pain. I feel awful not being able to do anything for him right away. He's had his first half tablet dose of buscopan to try and shift the stone. Op isn't till tuesday as I said before. He's pretty weak and not moving around at all, wont go to water has to be taken/syringed to him.
Just wondering @helen105281 if you know please?
 
NO - it may not be safe!

I am very sorry to hear that Mac may have a stone in his ureter. Has this been confirmed on Xray or is this just a "suspicion" by the vet? (And are you sure she didn;t say Urethra...which is the bit below the bladder through the penis?)

The reason I ask this is that stones in the ureter (leading from kidney to the bladder) are for the most part considered inoperable and PTS is normally recommended by all but the most experienced of vets. (I personally have agreed PTS for 3 of my piggies who, on Xray, showed stones in their ureters)
I am only aware of 2 guinea pigs on the Forum that have been operated on for stones in the ureter - one was successful.......the other (my own piggie) didn;t come through post-op because his kidney was already too compromised. It is a brave and progressive vet who will even consider such an operation.

It does appear to me, giving your vets treatment with buscopan, that the stone is in his urethra rather than his ureter. If that is the case - you will be amazed at what boars can expel through such a narrow tube in their willy with a bit of help - my Maple managed to get rid of a sperm rod approx 1cm in diameter (much to the shock of both me and my vets)

Moving on to pain relief/Loxicam
Loxicam (a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug) comes in differing strengths...without knowing the strength (eg cat or dog) it is not possible to advise on giving another dose. Some vets and owners prefer to split the dose of loxicam and give half every 12hourly instead of once every 24hours owing to the faster metabolic rate of guinea pigs.

Loxicam is also contraindicated in piggies with impaired renal function and if Mac has a stone in the ureter that the vet is hoping to shift then it may very well be causing issues with his kidney so to give an extra dose might at at worst exacerbate his condition.

A better pain relief for Mac may be buprecare or tramadol - but these are opiates and will counteract the effect of the buscopan the vet has prescribed in an effort to help shift the stone. Hence why you really need to talk on the phone to your vet.

If you are ringing out-of-hours - You will also need to be armed with
a) the strength of the medication you have
b) the piggies current weight
c) the piggies current dosage regime

I'm sorry I can;t provide more positive help - but Mac has a complicated condition involving stones blocking small tubes with the possibility of sudden kidney failure but also the possibiity of an opto rectify things next tuesday. If he goes downhill at all then please don;t hesitate to take him to an emergency vet for an immediate assessment. I am hoping that the buscopan will do the trick and he will shift the stone (and it is in his urethra rather than his ureter). Don; be afraid to press the vet to bring the op forwards.
HTH
x

Edit: To All Piggie slaves: It would be extremely irresponsible to change/increase/tinker with dosages etc of ANY prescription medicines on the advice of anonymous internet peepies without first consulting your vet (or emergency vets) for authorisation. A simple telephone call will be enough - I ring my vets whatever time of day or night if I wish to discuss giving/changing any type of medication/treatment with my poorly piggies in order to save me an out-of-hours expensive visit.
 
*** I understand the need for you to make the note at the end of your seemingly well informed post and support it, can I just be clear I am simply 'asking around' on here to get an indication from people such as yourself who have experience and would not act with medication before speaking to my vet *** I am asking because I am upset that Mac may be in pain and trying to arm myself with as much knowledge as possible for when I speak with the vet.

I was in the vets for 11/2 hours discussing this so I am very clear on what is going on and yes sadly it is his Ureta, confirmed with x-rayS. The vet is a well known, highly recommended one who people like myself travel far to go and see. (I have previously withdrawn Mac from another less experienced vet, who said I could buy another one for £5).

I don't mean to sound defensive and I am very thankful for your explanation, I am deeply worried and upset and am dedicated to his welfare, staying at home, hand-feeding him every 2.5 hours, making sure he is hydrated...comforting him, encouraging him (I have an important job interview tomorrow which I must take a portfolio to, that has been put to one side). I'm distraught he's going through this.

I have already explained the condition / state of affairs at the start of this thread so I won't repeat myself too much. The vet (he) is hoping to shift the stone to the bladder to make for easier surgery which is why the op is next tuesday to give the buscopan time to work. He has operated on stones in the ureTA before with successful results, although he did point out that he can never be sure if the kidney continues to work afterwards, however it is possible for them to live well with one and has seen piggies do well after this surgery. He thinks it is worth doing and he is a very experienced vet with surgery on pigs. He did say he has never had a good outcome when there are stones in both uretas but as Mac's is just on one side he will do it. Our vet did also note that, like you say with most vets, 'the books' do not sugest surgery on stones in the ureta.

I realise I didn't indicate strengths of meds etc, I was hoping for a response and more reaching out in a moment of desperation than anything. It's been an exhausting and emotional day, I'm so sad.

Lets hope this buscopan gets this stone shifted!
x
 
An update for everyone who's pitched in :luv:

Mac's operation went very well yesterday early afternoon, the vet was pleased with how it went despite the stone not having moved out of the ureter, which is where it was removed from. As I live far away and travel by train I'd stayed at the vets all day (12 till 5.30) so was given him when he was coming round all wrapped up in a towel with some surgical gloves filled with hot water to keep him warm. He ate quite a few bits of celery as he was coming round and hasn't lost his appetite since.
The stone was btween 1-2mm round and quite hard, I don't know what else i was imaging but fascinating to see it, and the vet laughed kindly when I asked if everything inside Maccy looked alright - I had anxious visions that something would be wrong, but he said everything was just fine. :)
So as I type Pickle (his brother) is very sweetly curled up next to Maccy by his side, head nestled in his fur and they are both sleeping - an exhausting day for them yesterday. We've got Septrin to give him 0.3ml twice a day and one dose of Loxicam (2ml) 0.26ml once a day. I've just ordered some Avipro plus to use instead of the Pro C as it seems to get a better review on here. I also bought some Oxbow Natural Science Urinary Support herbal tablets which I'm hoping will help him through too.

One slight worry is that he just had a few spasms where the back half of his body was sort of convulsing towards the front, there were about 5. When I just searched this on here I came across a post talking about the symptoms of E-cuniculi which I have to say match the symptoms maccy had before his op (apart from head tilt). I'm going to have to watch this, thoughts anyone?


Thanks for the words of wisdom. x
 
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Glad that the operation has been a success. So it was the urethra (between bladder and anus) and not the ureter (between kidneys and bladder) he had the stone in?

Please contact your vet if you have any issues and have your boy seen promptly.
 
PammyRay said:
No the ureter between the kidney and the bladder. :)

Ok sure I will do, no more spasms for now, appetite still good.
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All the best! I am glad that he has come through his op so well and has got his appetite.

You may find this thread here helpful in managing his diet to help minimise future problems: https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/threads/low-calcium-diet-for-bladder-piggies.105930/ (researched and written by a member with guinea pigs with kidney stones)
Alternatively, you can restrict your piggy's diet to the just what is listed under daily veg in this thread here; this diet has been practised successfully in silghtly varied forms by several forum members for some time now: https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk...or-a-balanced-general-guinea-pig-diet.116460/
The current lowest calcium content pellets are these here; our members with bladder piggies recommend feeding 5 pellets per piggy per day, so one bag will go a long way: http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/small_pets/food/guinea_pig/bunny/195679
Please, make sure that you filter any water; it can really make a big difference in the build-up of stones!

Unfortunately, calcium absorption is a very complex and not yet well researched process in guinea pigs that can have a genetic component, but with a low calcium diet, you can at least try to slow things down or - at the best - keep them from reoccurring.
 
Thank you yes those posts are really helpful. I did tell the vet that people on the forums considered that he must be 'advanced and progressive' to consider such an operation. He smiled and laughed, he's very kind and really quite wonderful! :)

I know those pellets we had a sample sent to us kindly from a person recommended at the vets, will give them another try as Mac lost his two top teeth just after we had them (no idea how) and had to go back to familiar food a veg, then weight loss continued and here we are.

I give them a ashbeck bottled water at the moment as it has a low calcium content - they drink better than us! Not sure if I need to filter that aswell but if it makes a difference then I will! :)

Stopping it from reoccurring sounds ideal, yes please, can I have that one?! :inn:
 
PammyRay said:
Thank you yes those posts are really helpful. I did tell the vet that people on the forums considered that he must be 'advanced and progressive' to consider such an operation. He smiled and laughed, he's very kind and really quite wonderful! :)

I know those pellets we had a sample sent to us kindly from a person recommended at the vets, will give them another try as Mac lost his two top teeth just after we had them (no idea how) and had to go back to familiar food a veg, then weight loss continued and here we are.

I give them a ashbeck bottled water at the moment as it has a low calcium content - they drink better than us! Not sure if I need to filter that aswell but if it makes a difference then I will! :)

Stopping it from reoccurring sounds ideal, yes please, can I have that one?! :inn:
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If you are worried about the pellet consistency, could you either break them up a bit in a mortar or serve them mushed up in a bit of boiled, cooled water?
 
They remind me of my Caron who now lives happily with Dindypig after a bullying situation within the Tribe.
IMG_9055_edited-1.webp
 
Yes! So alike, she looks a healthy weight too. Pickle is 1350g and Mac used to average 1250 but 950g at the moment. She's more like Maccy with the rosette on her head and darker colouring around the nose. Pickle is whiter and no rosette a little girl in the vet yesterday said that she thought Pickle should be a girl - and I know what she means! :)
 
I am sure that Maccy will start picking up weight soon now that the pain has gone!
 
Yeah, I'm so impressed with him so far, so much more inquisitive and active than he's been in weeks :) Glad to know Caron is now happy living with Dindypig, she probably got bullied for being gorgeous! :hug:
 
PammyRay said:
Yeah, I'm so impressed with him so far, so much more inquisitive and active than he's been in weeks :) Glad to know Caron is now happy living with Dindypig, she probably got bullied for being gorgeous! :hug:
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Unfortunately, it wasn't quite as easy as that! Caron has the unfortunate habit of winding up the top sow but not being able to stand up to the bottom girls; she is quite a sneaky troublemaker on the sly and for those reasons failed to bond or was not suitable to bond with any of my other groups. Thankfully, Dindypig's group was not as hierarchical as the then big Tribe, so Caron settled in fine and started to regain her weight straight away. After the death of her close relative Cupcake, who she joined at Dindypig's, Caron is very happily playing lady of the manor... ;)
 
Ha ha ha such personalities! Well glad its worked out for her and the other tribe. Pickle is the dominant one with my two and always sweet to us, annoys mac here and there, but ever since the op he has been quite soppy, I think he knows something has gone on and he wants to be hand watered too if I offer it to Mac. He was also intent on standing on my hand while he ate earlier, funny thing.
 
Piggies have a very fine sensor when it comes to illness and usually care well for their bonded companions.
 
20150129_175859.webp Pickle still shadowing Macky. Mac fell asleep in the new straw bowl (a casserole dish to stop it going on the floor and him walking in it, he didn't understand) so Pickle lay his head down on floor beside him.
All still good today, fur is starting to grow back and after his meds Mac was standing up reaching hay from top of basket.
 
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