Help needed! 2 male piggies fighting - what do I do?!

[lovelly22]

So I have 2 male piggies - Ginger and Sherlock, they're both about 1 year old now and have recently had 2 fights...
They live in a two tier hutch outside (with thermal cover). They have been getting on fine for ages - Ginger has been the dominant one and Sherlock (being the shy one) has always accepted this. To give a background; I'm having my house done up so they went into boarding about 1 month or so ago for 2 weeks which they've never done before but seemed ok when they got back. They spent a week at my house while it was being done up so building work going on and I came and fed them twice a day from a rental I was staying at. I then decided I couldn't keep doing that coz they weren't getting enough attention so found a rental where I could keep them at the house - so lots of new places and noises. They were fine for a while, and then a heat wave hit and I had them inside snuggling as usual and all of a sudden Ginger attacked Sherlock. He had cuts and went on antibiotics for a week. After that Ginger kept dominating/but-shaking at Sherlock but no fights for about 2 weeks.
However, yesterday as I was putting them back after a bath (once they'd dried), I heard a scuffle and they were on top of each other rolling around. Sherlock has another cut on his lip which I will monitor, but I decided to separate them last night by blocking off the stairs. I didn't want to do this because this meant they have reduced space and can't see or really speak to each other.
Today I tried to reintroduce inside but Ginger just teeth chatters at Sherlock - and Sherlock will only do it back if Ginger starts it, which he often does (he's the one dominating at Sherlock). I then tried reintroducing in their hutch but when Sherlock went downstairs Ginger was dominating and teeth chattering at him and then lunged at Sherlock. They are now separated again tonight.

Basically I can't keep them like this forever so I don't know what to do:
- Do I get a new, bigger house (maybe a shed) and see how they get on?
- Do I get rid of one and introduce a young female/male to the remaining one?
- Do I keep both, get a bigger house and introduce 2 new young pigs (either sex)? Keeping them either separated in two pairs so they can see each other or in one space together and hope Ginger and Sherlock get on?
I don't know! All I know is they're not good at the moment - Ginger is the brunt of the problems from what I can see. Sherlock seems to have grown in confidence a bit so maybe that causes problems? I love them both and want to keep them really but don't mind getting a bigger house or introducing new pigs.
Please help if you can and give me some advise! (Sorry it's soooooo long)

 

[Piggies&buns]

Generally once two piggies have had that kind of fight - blood drawing fight - they need to be permanently separated and never able to live together again. In that case, they will both, in time, need to be paired with another pig each. So you will end up with two separate pairs of piggies. Whether you get them a male friend each or have them neutered and find them a female friend each is a decision for you (and your piggies) to make.
As to why this has happened now, it could be a few things. You say they are about a year old. They are in their teenage months from around 4-14 months and during this time hormones are raging and fall outs can happen. When they are establishing the hierarchy, one backs down into a submissive role and then things settle down and they get on perfectly well. Sometimes, nobody wants to back down as submissive and then bonds get broken and separations need to happen. The other thing is, with the moving they have done, it could have unsettled them. even changing their bedding can cause them to feel the need to assert their dominance all over again and sometimes that can deteriorate into a fall out.
For information, and because you say get more piggies and keep them ‘ in one space together and hope ginger and Sherlock get on’, this will not work. Males must be kept in a pair. Three/four boys together will result in fights. You also cannot keep two males with females as the boys will fight over the girls.

 

[eileen]

please take a deep breath,it is a shock especially when you see your piggies locked on going round in a complete fuzzball.unfortunatley your piggies will have to be permnatley separated. can you possibly bring them in and separate with grids,baking rack.i had to keep my first boars in top and bottom hutch until i could think straight.my decision was to neuter both boars and get two sows after six weeks.it depends on space,finances,time as to which step you take next.I'm sorry for your dilema .

 

[lovelly22]

Generally once two piggies have had that kind of fight - blood drawing fight - they need to be permanently separated and never able to live together again. In that case, they will both, in time, need to be paired with another pig each. So you will end up with two separate pairs of piggies. Whether you get them a male friend each or have them neutered and find them a female friend each is a decision for you (and your piggies) to make.
As to why this has happened now, it could be a few things. You say they are about a year old. They are in their teenage months from around 4-14 months and during this time hormones are raging and fall outs can happen. When they are establishing the hierarchy, one backs down into a submissive role and then things settle down and they get on perfectly well. Sometimes, nobody wants to back down as submissive and then bonds get broken and separations need to happen. The other thing is, with the moving they have done, it could have unsettled them. even changing their bedding can cause them to feel the need to assert their dominance all over again and sometimes that can deteriorate into a fall out.
For information, and because you say get more piggies and keep them ‘ in one space together and hope ginger and Sherlock get on’, this will not work. Males must be kept in a pair. Three/four boys together will result in fights. You also cannot keep two males with females as the boys will fight over the girls.

Thank you very much for your reply! I had done a lot of research so I did see that this could have been an outcome; separating forever so I did kinda know but didn't want it to come to that coz they used to get on so wellSo is there no chance they could make up? And 2 males with 2 females is a no, even if I had two pairs (of a male and female) in the same house but separated with mesh/bars so they could still see and talk to each other? And also, is it easy to introduce new piggies to each other - are they ways that you have to do it?
Thanks again for your help.

 

[lovelly22]

please take a deep breath,it is a shock especially when you see your piggies locked on going round in a complete fuzzball.unfortunatley your piggies will have to be permnatley separated. can you possibly bring them in and separate with grids,baking rack.i had to keep my first boars in top and bottom hutch until i could think straight.my decision was to neuter both boars and get two sows after six weeks.it depends on space,finances,time as to which step you take next.I'm sorry for your dilema .

Thanks for your help. It definitely was a massive shock. They used to get on so well; Sherlock following Ginger around and popcorning together, it was lovely to see! I unfortunately can't keep them inside because the hay interfiers with allergies with other members of my family, even though I know this is easier to separate pigs. I think I want to introduce new sows like you have done and neuter the males, but I've heard you can't mix 2 males and 2 females because the boys fight over the girls? So has it worked for you? Thanks again for your advice!

 

[VickiA]

I’m really sorry, but I think you’ve had the perfect boar storm here - they’ve hit their troublesome teens at exactly the same time that they’ve had lots of moves and changes of scenery etc. Either of these could cause dominance and a potential for a bust up but you’ve had it all together. I’m afraid that now they’ve had this bust up, they really can’t go back together. You will need to make the separation permanent.

Take your time to plan what next. There is no immediate rush, but if you do decide to neuter them and find a wife, please be sure to wait the full 6 weeks post neutering before introducing a sow so that you don’t risk a population explosion to add to your troubles.

 

[Piggies&buns]

With several fights now occurring they will never get on again.

You can have a Male with a female in one cage, and then the other Male with a female in another cage. Just don’t ever let the two pairs get together.

When it comes to bonding piggies, it is down to character compatibility. If you were to go out and get two new pigs there is a chance that they might not get on with ginger and Sherlock. Just like people, pigs have to like each other. The best way to find new companions is via a rescue centre who can help find character compatible piggies to bond with your two pigs. You can do bonding yourself - there is guides in the bonding section of how to do it, but whether it successful comes down to the pigs being compatible.

Take the time to think things through before making a decision on where to go from here.

 

[VickiA]

Thanks for your help. It definitely was a massive shock. They used to get on so well; Sherlock following Ginger around and popcorning together, it was lovely to see! I unfortunately can't keep them inside because the hay interfiers with allergies with other members of my family, even though I know this is easier to separate pigs. I think I want to introduce new sows like you have done and neuter the males, but I've heard you can't mix 2 males and 2 females because the boys fight over the girls? So has it worked for you? Thanks again for your advice!

You will have to have 2 enclosures. In each will be 1 neutered boar and 1 sow. You can’t have all 4 in together as your boars will have even more to fight about.

 

[eileen]

i had to get another hutch,place one boar with a sow.unfortunatley you can only have one neutered boar /boar to as many sows as you have space !two boars with sows in the same cage hutch very rarely works,boars fight over the females.it has worked for me,as i had two seperate boar and sow pair .just block your current hutch so one boar is on the , top part,the other on the bottom.
you will need to wait six weeks post op neuter before you can date any sows,the sperm can stay fertile in the boars tubes upto the six weeks. have a look at the vet locater to find a competent cavy savvy vet that is experienced with neutering.

 

[Sophie B]

Seems your current bond is broken, and they should be separated.
Guinea pigs should be separated from one another if blood is drawn
I think you should try and get as big of a cage as possible, and keep them separate (two different cages in a shed or something along those lines)
You may want to consider getting a new partner for each of them, provided you have the space.
Should you choose to get a female partner you should wait 6 weeks after neutering them to introduce a female

 

[Wiebke]

So I have 2 male piggies - Ginger and Sherlock, they're both about 1 year old now and have recently had 2 fights...
They live in a two tier hutch outside (with thermal cover). They have been getting on fine for ages - Ginger has been the dominant one and Sherlock (being the shy one) has always accepted this. To give a background; I'm having my house done up so they went into boarding about 1 month or so ago for 2 weeks which they've never done before but seemed ok when they got back. They spent a week at my house while it was being done up so building work going on and I came and fed them twice a day from a rental I was staying at. I then decided I couldn't keep doing that coz they weren't getting enough attention so found a rental where I could keep them at the house - so lots of new places and noises. They were fine for a while, and then a heat wave hit and I had them inside snuggling as usual and all of a sudden Ginger attacked Sherlock. He had cuts and went on antibiotics for a week. After that Ginger kept dominating/but-shaking at Sherlock but no fights for about 2 weeks.
However, yesterday as I was putting them back after a bath (once they'd dried), I heard a scuffle and they were on top of each other rolling around. Sherlock has another cut on his lip which I will monitor, but I decided to separate them last night by blocking off the stairs. I didn't want to do this because this meant they have reduced space and can't see or really speak to each other.
Today I tried to reintroduce inside but Ginger just teeth chatters at Sherlock - and Sherlock will only do it back if Ginger starts it, which he often does (he's the one dominating at Sherlock). I then tried reintroducing in their hutch but when Sherlock went downstairs Ginger was dominating and teeth chattering at him and then lunged at Sherlock. They are now separated again tonight.

Basically I can't keep them like this forever so I don't know what to do:
- Do I get a new, bigger house (maybe a shed) and see how they get on?
- Do I get rid of one and introduce a young female/male to the remaining one?
- Do I keep both, get a bigger house and introduce 2 new young pigs (either sex)? Keeping them either separated in two pairs so they can see each other or in one space together and hope Ginger and Sherlock get on?
I don't know! All I know is they're not good at the moment - Ginger is the brunt of the problems from what I can see. Sherlock seems to have grown in confidence a bit so maybe that causes problems? I love them both and want to keep them really but don't mind getting a bigger house or introducing new pigs.
Please help if you can and give me some advise! (Sorry it's soooooo long)

Hi!

Sadly it sounds like your boys have reached the end of the road.

Please keep them both, but with a grid divider so they can still have full sight (body language), smell (pheromones) and vocal interaction and round the clock mutual stimulation. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like they are getting on. A bigger or a second cage if you can afford it is always great; guinea pigs can never have enough space because they are a ground roaming species. lack of space, especially in teenage boars is the single biggest cause for fights. Sadly when buying pet shop piggies, people don't look at which piggies are hanging out together most (mutual liking and character compatibility are key for any successful bond) and whether pet shops sell welfare compatible cages...

Please take the time to carefully read through the guides below. They should answer all your questions re. keeping your boys together or when to separate. They also list all potential options after a fight with their various pros and cons.
The boar guide also includes boar specific issues (like how best to deal with territory changes, tips on how to minimise potential flash points etc.)
A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars
Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?

If you want both boars to live with a sow companion each for the long term (which is the most stable of all bonds), please be aware that the snip comes with a 6 weeks post-op wait until a boar is 100% safe to live with a sow (the baby in my avatar is the unplanned legacy of a supposedly safe over 5 weeks post nuetering op boar - not one of mine I hasten to add). Neutering in guinea pigs doesn't change personality or curbs testosterone production/aggression; all it does is take away the ability to make babies.
This guide here talks you through all the aspects in detail to make the experience as safe and problem-free as possible for both you and your boys: Neutered / De-sexed Boars And Neutering Operations: Myths, Facts and Post-op Care

 

[lovelly22]

To everyone who's replied so far!
Thanks for you help, I now have lots of advice and things to think about. I've spoken to other members of my family and I think I'm going to buy another hutch like the one I've got now, neuter my boys and get them both a female. I think it's the best option as I want to keep my lovely boys who I've got attached toI'll follow all your advice and make sure I do this correctlyOne final question - do the females have to be different ages compared to my 1 year old boys? So younger or older or is it ok if they're the same age?
Thanks again!

 

[Wiebke]

To everyone who's replied so far!
Thanks for you help, I now have lots of advice and things to think about. I've spoken to other members of my family and I think I'm going to buy another hutch like the one I've got now, neuter my boys and get them both a female. I think it's the best option as I want to keep my lovely boys who I've got attached toI'll follow all your advice and make sure I do this correctlyOne final question - do the females have to be different ages compared to my 1 year old boys? So younger or older or is it ok if they're the same age?
Thanks again!

Mutual liking and character compatibility comes long before age. I have had a 5 year old sow fall head over heels for a 5 months old boar and vice versa (they were happily married for more than two years until Tesni'd death at the age of 7 years) and have currently a 5 year old huge 'husboar' with a 5 weeks old baby sow, who are getting on ever so well! These are the extremes; the majority of my bonds are within 1-2 years of each other. But it shows you the possible range...
What you need to know is the key point to a happy bond is initial acceptance - and that comes from the ladies, who call the shots where guinea pigs are concerned. Acceptance is not always a given, so that is the big hurdle with cross gender bondings.

The best place to find 'Mrs Right' is one of our carefully vetted recommended good standard rescues with mandatory quarantine/vet care and pregnancy watch that offers rescue dating to allow your boys to have a say who they want to live with - you come home with piggies only if acceptance has happened and can neatly avoid all the pitfalls that await the unwary. You will also have the rescue to fall back on if you run into relationship problems or bereavement.
Recommended Guinea Pig Rescues

It is a bit more effort but well worth it as you get a lot more service, peace of mind and have the tricky part of the bonding done at the rescue. If you want to do this, it would be best to speak with the rescue about what they look for in terms of housing before you go out an buy another hutch. Rescues generally prefer to have piggies under firm cover during the winter months.
Please note that anybody can call themselves a rescue or a breeder without licensing and supervision, and the results can be accordingly and any shade in between the two. We can vouch that you are in experienced and safe hands only for the listed rescues.

If you want to buy piggies, then sub-adults is the best option. Please double-check the gender upon arrival and be aware that pet shop/breeder piggies can sadly come already pregnant. We have seen a rising number of cases on here.
What to check and look out for in new guinea pigs (vet checks, sexing, parasites&illness)

We also have a very detailed step-by-bonding bonding guide with illustrations of key behaviours for each stage and several videos.
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics

 

[Merab]

What a time you’re having.
I’ve read through the thread and can’t add anything to the advice.
You come across as a very caring owner so your boys and any future piggies will have a wonderful home.

 

[lovelly22]

Here's a couple of pics of my silly boysSherlock's the black fluffy one and Ginger is the ginger coloured one

 

[Merab]

They’re so cute

 

[lovelly22]

They’re so cute

Thank you!

 

[lovelly22]

Mutual liking and character compatibility comes long before age. I have had a 5 year old sow fall head over heels for a 5 months old boar and vice versa (they were happily married for more than two years until Tesni'd death at the age of 7 years) and have currently a 5 year old huge 'husboar' with a 5 weeks old baby sow, who are getting on ever so well! These are the extremes; the majority of my bonds are within 1-2 years of each other. But it shows you the possible range...
What you need to know is the key point to a happy bond is initial acceptance - and that comes from the ladies, who call the shots where guinea pigs are concerned. Acceptance is not always a given, so that is the big hurdle with cross gender bondings.

The best place to find 'Mrs Right' is one of our carefully vetted recommended good standard rescues with mandatory quarantine/vet care and pregnancy watch that offers rescue dating to allow your boys to have a say who they want to live with - you come home with piggies only if acceptance has happened and can neatly avoid all the pitfalls that await the unwary. You will also have the rescue to fall back on if you run into relationship problems or bereavement.
Recommended Guinea Pig Rescues

It is a bit more effort but well worth it as you get a lot more service, peace of mind and have the tricky part of the bonding done at the rescue. If you want to do this, it would be best to speak with the rescue about what they look for in terms of housing before you go out an buy another hutch. Rescues generally prefer to have piggies under firm cover during the winter months.
Please note that anybody can call themselves a rescue or a breeder without licensing and supervision, and the results can be accordingly and any shade in between the two. We can vouch that you are in experienced and safe hands only for the listed rescues.

If you want to buy piggies, then sub-adults is the best option. Please double-check the gender upon arrival and be aware that pet shop/breeder piggies can sadly come already pregnant. We have seen a rising number of cases on here.
What to check and look out for in new guinea pigs (vet checks, sexing, parasites&illness)

We also have a very detailed step-by-bonding bonding guide with illustrations of key behaviours for each stage and several videos.
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics

Thanks so much for all your brilliant advice - I'm learning loads about piggies!I will definitely do this properly and make sure my piggies are bonded well and are happy, thanks again!

 

[Wiebke]

Thanks so much for all your brilliant advice - I'm learning loads about piggies!I will definitely do this properly and make sure my piggies are bonded well and are happy, thanks again!

We have got a new owners guide collection, which is very useful as a resource collection for looking up some more in-depth information. It addresses all the most often asked questions and problems in a practical but precise step-by-step way and does not gloss over the tricky areas like so many books sadly do.
Getting Started - New Owners' Most Helpful Guides

It is part of our even more extensive guide collection on a wide range of topics, which you can access via the shortcut on the top bar; but you are of course always welcome to ask any questions you have in our Care sections. We may link in the relevant guide, which will discuss the points raised in more detail than we can explain in a single post if that is of advantage for you.