How to tell if your pig has Bladder stones.

[Hannah_xx]

Hi everyone!
Despite Mary going for a health check just a couple of days ago and getting the all clear. Tonight she has produced a bloody wee. She had a UTI a few months ago which she was treated for and now I feel this is going to be an ongoing problem. I’m now wondering if she in fact has bladder stones? Can these only be found by an X-ray?
Mary drinks an awful lot, could this be a sign of bladder problems?

I’m working tomorrow so can’t take her to the vet. And she’s acting absolutely fine, active and eating drinking pooping etc. But I will phone the vet tomorrow, can I ask the receptionist if I can talk to my vet? Maybe as she saw Mary a couple of days ago she can prescribe medication over the phone that my partner can go in and collect? (We live an hour away from the town, Jon works nearby).

 

[Lady Kelly]

Stones can only be picked up on x-rays unless they are large enough to be felt manually. There is also a possibility that you could be dealing with reproductive issues and the blood coming from that tract instead. It could also be IC that might not react to antibiotics and I believe a few members on here have experience of that, it does tend to flare up from time to time

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

Are you sure it’s blood? Urine can look pink/red without it being blood! A vet check will either put your mind at ease, or pinpoint a problem, that can then be dealt with.

 

[Guinea Newbie]

Mary is still pretty new to you isn’t she?

I had the same with my 2 when we first got them, it started 10 days in. They both had a couple of courses of Baytril and metacam due to blood in their urine and squeaking when peeing. I was one step away from x-rays but it all calmed down. The vet said it could have been the stress of the move and a new home. Also, I now follow the diet for piggies with bladder issues and things seem stable (touch wood!).

It’s always worth a vet check but what I am trying to say is, it might not necessarily be stones.

 

[Claire W]

I would assume that if she did have bladder stones, she would be in a lot of pain. But a vet check would be wise

 

[Hannah_xx]

Thank you everyone for the responses!

Stones can only be picked up on x-rays unless they are large enough to be felt manually. There is also a possibility that you could be dealing with reproductive issues and the blood coming from that tract instead. It could also be IC that might not react to antibiotics and I believe a few members on here have experience of that, it does tend to flare up from time to time

yes it could well be! I guess if she had stones she’d be showing signs of pain and discomfort when peeing which she isn’t? Hmm

Are you sure it’s blood? Urine can look pink/red without it being blood! A vet check will either put your mind at ease, or pinpoint a problem, that can then be dealt with.

Well when I’ve seen UTI type pee before it’s always been more browny or pinky. But this time, I was bringing her in from the grass and she had a very red spot of blood in the grass where she was sitting (definitely from her bottom). I bought her in and dabbed her bum with paper towel and it was brownish on the paper.
I will closely monitor her pet and behaviour over the next couple of days and take her to the vet if it continues. I’ll call in sick to work if need be. But if she’s okay until Thursday I’ll try booking in with a more experienced vet Thursday to investigate

Mary is still pretty new to you isn’t she?

I had the same with my 2 when we first got them, it started 10 days in. They both had a couple of courses of Baytril and metacam due to blood in their urine and squeaking when peeing. I was one step away from x-rays but it all calmed down. The vet said it could have been the stress of the move and a new home. Also, I now follow the diet for piggies with bladder issues and things seem stable (touch wood!).

It’s always worth a vet check but what I am trying to say is, it might not necessarily be stones.

Thank you for your reply!
No, Mary I’ve had for over a year now. (You’re thinking of Wilma!). I’m going to research a different diet for Mary I think!

I would assume that if she did have bladder stones, she would be in a lot of pain. But a vet check would be wise

yes I’d think so too! She’s acting fine!
I’ll keep a good eye on her over the next few days and try to book an appointment with a more experienced vet than what I saw on Thursday.
It hard to find a good vet where I live

 

[Wiebke]

Hi everyone!
Despite Mary going for a health check just a couple of days ago and getting the all clear. Tonight she has produced a bloody wee. She had a UTI a few months ago which she was treated for and now I feel this is going to be an ongoing problem. I’m now wondering if she in fact has bladder stones? Can these only be found by an X-ray?
Mary drinks an awful lot, could this be a sign of bladder problems?

I’m working tomorrow so can’t take her to the vet. And she’s acting absolutely fine, active and eating drinking pooping etc. But I will phone the vet tomorrow, can I ask the receptionist if I can talk to my vet? Maybe as she saw Mary a couple of days ago she can prescribe medication over the phone that my partner can go in and collect? (We live an hour away from the town, Jon works nearby).

Hi!

Please be aware that red/pink pees (which are typically stained deep red by porphyrine and not by blood although blood may or may not be present in the urine - believe me, I have been there with piggies of mine!) can signal the onset of a cystitis, which is a more likely candidate as an acute flare-up typically starts this way.

However, when you are dealing with recurring urinary tract problems, the second step after treating unsuccessfully for a UTI is to always exclude the risk of bladder/kidney stones or sludge.
The irritation and pain from stones and sludge bumping painfully into the bladder walls every time a piggy pees can also cause a bacterial cystitis, which should react to antibiotics but will recur until the cause of the problem is removed.

If that second step has been dealt with, then the only remaining potential problem (which can currently only be diagnosed by default) is a sterile intersititial cystitis (or sterile IC/sterile cavy cystitis), i.e. a non-bacterial recurring inflammation of the bladder walls.
Sterile IC in guinea pigs has become a lot more common over the last decade. Unfortunately its existence is not well known by general vets. Like sterile feline cystitis (or SFC), you and your vet can only manage the symptoms, especially during the regular flare-ups but not cure the illness itself. Treatment is fairly similar in both species, with metacam for the inflammation/pain and with long term daily glucosamine to support the natural glucosamine coating of the walls in the urinary system, which seems to be the most important measure and is key to long term comfort.
You can either look for glucosamine based cat bladder supplements (preferably capsules) or for human glucosamine tablets (preferably vegetarian/vegan ones if they are available). In either case, you mix the powder (in the case of tablets you have to grind them down first) with 1-2 ml of water per dose in a little medicine bottle (shake vigorously and store in the fridge between use if you have two days' worth; always shake again before use).

The good news is that IC is does NOT cause bladder stones, that it is NOT a potentially fatal disease and that it will eventually go away on its own. The bad news is that the 'eventually' is more a matter of years than months.

Here are our diet recommendations for guinea pigs with longer term problems (in the special needs diet chapter): Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

All the best!

PS: While IC is not at all pleasant in itself, at least it is not life-shortening or causing long term complications and it is comparatively cheap to treat in view of glucosamine being classed as a food supplement and not a medication, so it can be bought a lot more cheaply online.
I have currently got two IC girls of my own again.

 

[Hannah_xx]

Hi!

Please be aware that red/pink pees (which are typically stained deep red by porphyrine and not by blood although blood may or may not be present in the urine - believe me, I have been there with piggies of mine!) can signal the onset of a cystitis, which is a more likely candidate as an acute flare-up typically starts this way.

However, when you are dealing with recurring urinary tract problems, the second step after treating unsuccessfully for a UTI is to always exclude the risk of bladder/kidney stones or sludge.
The irritation and pain from stones and sludge bumping painfully into the bladder walls every time a piggy pees can also cause a bacterial cystitis, which should react to antibiotics but will recur until the cause of the problem is removed.

If that second step has been dealt with, then the only remaining potential problem (which can currently only be diagnosed by default) is a sterile intersititial cystitis (or sterile IC/sterile cavy cystitis), i.e. a non-bacterial recurring inflammation of the bladder walls.
Sterile IC in guinea pigs has become a lot more common over the last decade. Unfortunately its existence is not well known by general vets. Like sterile feline cystitis (or SFC), you and your vet can only manage the symptoms, especially during the regular flare-ups but not cure the illness itself. Treatment is fairly similar in both species, with metacam for the inflammation/pain and with long term daily glucosamine to support the natural glucosamine coating of the walls in the urinary system, which seems to be the most important measure and is key to long term comfort.
You can either look for glucosamine based cat bladder supplements (preferably capsules) or for human glucosamine tablets (preferably vegetarian/vegan ones if they are available). In either case, you mix the powder (in the case of tablets you have to grind them down first) with 1-2 ml of water per dose in a little medicine bottle (shake vigorously and store in the fridge between use if you have two days' worth; always shake again before use).

The good news is that IC is does NOT cause bladder stones, that it is NOT a potentially fatal disease and that it will eventually go away on its own. The bad news is that the 'eventually' is more a matter of years than months.

Here are our diet recommendations for guinea pigs with longer term problems (in the special needs diet chapter): Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

All the best!

PS: While IC is not at all pleasant in itself, at least it is not life-shortening or causing long term complications and it is comparatively cheap to treat in view of glucosamine being classed as a food supplement and not a medication, so it can be bought a lot more cheaply online.
I have currently got two IC girls of my own again.

Thank you very much Wiebke for this information!
How do I go about getting my vet to investigate Mary possibly having IC?
I will try my very best to book in with the only exotic vet in the clinic (only 1 exotic vet in the city apparently!). I’ve tried to book him for a parrot problem and a piggy problem twice and never had any luck. If I do get to see him I’d hope that he’d know all about this problem and be able to diagnose and treat Mary.. However, It’s more likely that I’ll only get to see one of the other 2 vets that I trust. They’re good with the pigs, kind and know there stuff but not specialists in exotics as such. I feel I may need to help with a diagnosis?
In this case should I ask for a course of metacam (is it called the same in Australia? Or is it baytril?).

 

[Claire W]

Thank you very much Wiebke for this information!
How do I go about getting my vet to investigate Mary possibly having IC?
I will try my very best to book in with the only exotic vet in the clinic (only 1 exotic vet in the city apparently!). I’ve tried to book him for a parrot problem and a piggy problem twice and never had any luck. If I do get to see him I’d hope that he’d know all about this problem and be able to diagnose and treat Mary.. However, It’s more likely that I’ll only get to see one of the other 2 vets that I trust. They’re good with the pigs, kind and know there stuff but not specialists in exotics as such. I feel I may need to help with a diagnosis?
In this case should I ask for a course of metacam (is it called the same in Australia? Or is it baytril?).

IC is diagnosed once everything else has been ruled out such as uti, bladder stones, reproductive problems. It won’t do any harm asking for metacam. I’m not sure what the different medicines are called in Australia. All the best at the vets x

 

[Hannah_xx]

I phoned the Vet who saw Mary on Thursday and she was happy for my parter to come in and collect some medication for Mary instead of bringing her back in for another appointment.
She’s been given 14.00 x Baytril 25. 0.5ml twice a day.
And, 0.3ml metacam twice a day.
Does this sounds right?

I spoke to the vet about what @Wiebke had suggested with the concerns of possible cysistis as seems to be recurring bladder problems. We agreed to see how she goes on this course of medication but if things continue we can investigate further with a pee sample (Or maybe she said a tissue sample?) and if we think necessary an X-ray. Possibly around $350 ish.. which I’m more than happy to do but not going to rush into it.

 

[sport_billy]

What does Mary weigh Hannah? Baytril dose is quite high. I would have thought 0.25ml twice a day.
sending vibes and hope the AB clears up any UTI she has x

 

[Hannah_xx]

What does Mary weigh Hannah? Baytril dose is quite high. I would have thought 0.25ml twice a day.
sending vibes and hope the AB clears up any UTI she has x

I did think that was a bit high as well! Much more in the bottle than what I’ve had before. She weighs roughly 1050-1100. The dose she had a few months ago was 0.4ml. Should I perhaps just go with 0.3?

 

[sport_billy]

Speak to the vet, before adjusting so they are on same page. I would just query 0.5ml twice a day.
What was she on before?

 

[Hannah_xx]

Speak to the vet, before adjusting so they are on same page. I would just query 0.5ml twice a day.
What was she on before?

Last time she was on the same medications; metacam (can’t remember the dose) and Baytril 0.4 twice a day. This was back in July.

old bottle is the small brown one. New bottle is big orange.

 

[sport_billy]

She was fine on that dose? Poos not too wet?

 

[Hannah_xx]

She was fine on that dose? Poos not too wet?

yes from what I can remember.. hmm. I just gave her 0.3ml tonight to be on the safe side!

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

The dose range for any medication is huge. The vet will prescribe, depending on what is being treated, so I wouldn't advise changing the dose, without speaking to the vet first, as there could be a good reason for the larger dose.

 

[Hannah_xx]

The dose range for any medication is huge. The vet will prescribe, depending on what is being treated, so I wouldn't advise changing the dose, without speaking to the vet first, as there could be a good reason for the larger dose.

Thank you! I’ll give the vets a call tomorrow and also ask her how long to give the medicine for as she hasn’t stated on the bottle.
I don’t think she should have given such a high dosage, considering she saw mary on Thursday when she possibly didn’t have a UTI and gave her a clean bill of health. She’s prescribed this medication over the phone so I’d be surprised if she thought Mary needed such a high dose, especially as I told her on the phone that Mary was acting completely fine but just produced one stained/red pee.
She’s a lovely vet, but unfortunately not that experienced when it comes to actual guinea pig problems..
The exotic vet is away for 2 weeks, Going to try and see him next time!

 

[Wiebke]

I did think that was a bit high as well! Much more in the bottle than what I’ve had before. She weighs roughly 1050-1100. The dose she had a few months ago was 0.4ml. Should I perhaps just go with 0.3?

Hi!

What strength is your metacam? Dog metacam is three times stronger than cat metacam. In dog metacam the dosage would be nice and high to deal with any major pain while with cat metacam it would be very much on the low side and not have much impact. If you don't know, confirm with the clinic.

The baytril dose is in the right ball park. If it is IC, it won't be able to do more than temporarily suppress the symptoms at the best, but because the problem is not bacterial, will not be able to cure it and the problem will come back again sooner or later.

I've been through that process with my Breila last year on the way to diagnose her with IC, which I was rather sure she had as her bladder was soft and relaxed, so very unlikely to have a stone or any bladder damage from a stone (firm, small and thick-walled).

All the best!

 

[Hannah_xx]

Hi!

What strength is your metacam? Dog metacam is three times stronger than cat metacam. In dog metacam the dosage would be nice and high to deal with any major pain while with cat metacam it would be very much on the low side and not have much impact. If you don't know, confirm with the clinic.

The baytril dose is in the right ball park. If it is IC, it won't be able to do more than temporarily suppress the symptoms at the best, but because the problem is not bacterial, will not be able to cure it and the problem will come back again sooner or later.

I've been through that process with my Breila last year on the way to diagnose her with IC, which I was rather sure she had as her bladder was soft and relaxed, so very unlikely to have a stone or any bladder damage from a stone (firm, small and thick-walled).

All the best!

I phoned the vets today and my vet wasn’t in so I spoke to another vet, annoyingly I’d just started work when she phoned back so I had to rush the conversation. And the vet just starting saying things I already knew and had discussed with my vet.
But I’m to continue this medication for 10 days.. however I don’t think the metacam will last that long? (I’m unsure in the strength, how would I know? And In the rushed Conversation I forgot to ask if they’ve provided me with dog or cat metacam. And I did ask If the 0.5ml of baytril is correct, but she forgot to answer that question.

I’ll continue as we are. And in the meantime decide what If I should get her checked out for IC.

 

[Hannah_xx]

I phoned the vet on Monday and she said to do the medications for 10 days. Well 5 days in and I’ve run out of metacam but have lots of baytril left. So Mary hasn’t had any metacam for 2 days.
I’ve just got home from work and it’s obvious Mary still has a problem, this actually looks like blood to me rather than stained urine? It’s definitely coming from her bottom..

Mary is acting fine, eating, drinking, pooping and is active. She hasn’t lost any weight. But of course I’m now worried. It’s bank holiday and I’m working tomorrow, Do you think it’s okay for me to wait to take her to the vets on Tuesday? (I’ll have to take the day off work Tuesday, but so be it!)
What do you think @Wiebke ?

 

[Wiebke]

I phoned the vet on Monday and she said to do the medications for 10 days. Well 5 days in and I’ve run out of metacam but have lots of baytril left. So Mary hasn’t had any metacam for 2 days.
I’ve just got home from work and it’s obvious Mary still has a problem, this actually looks like blood to me rather than stained urine? It’s definitely coming from her bottom..
View attachment 132027
Mary is acting fine, eating, drinking, pooping and is active. She hasn’t lost any weight. But of course I’m now worried. It’s bank holiday and I’m working tomorrow, Do you think it’s okay for me to wait to take her to the vets on Tuesday? (I’ll have to take the day off work Tuesday, but so be it!)
What do you think @Wiebke ?

Hi!

Please have her checked on Tuesday, but make sure that the vet doesn't only look at the urinary tract but also at the reproductive tract.
As always, see a vet sooner if she is taking a turn for the worse and is visibly in pain/going off food - which I would think is rather unlikely.

Please also keep in mind that cystitis and urinary tract infections often start with deeply red stained pees. it can take several days for symptoms to solidify in that case.

 

[Hannah_xx]

T

Hi!

Please have her checked on Tuesday, but make sure that the vet doesn't only look at the urinary tract but also at the reproductive tract.
As always, see a vet sooner if she is taking a turn for the worse and is visibly in pain/going off food - which I would think is rather unlikely.

Please also keep in mind that cystitis and urinary tract infections often start with deeply red stained pees. it can take several days for symptoms to solidify in that case.

Thank you so much for your reply and advice!
It’s so odd, She is acting fine. But of course that could suddenly change and I want to get her seen asap. I’ve realised it may be difficult to get the day off work on Tuesday, but I recon my boss would cover me on Wednesday. I don’t know what to do!
My partner is off work tomorrow (Monday) so he can keep a close eye on her, the vets will be shut though as it’s bank holiday. I’ve just given them there veggies, pellets and top up of hay for the night and she’s munching away as she always does. She done a pee on me last night which didn’t have any brown or red staining!
It’s seems to be very on and off!

I’m also wanting to see a different vet than what I saw last time which may be somewhat difficult! And if I remember rightly the exotic vet will be away for a few more days.

 

[Wiebke]

T


Thank you so much for your reply and advice!
It’s so odd, She is acting fine. But of course that could suddenly change and I want to get her seen asap. I’ve realised it may be difficult to get the day off work on Tuesday, but I recon my boss would cover me on Wednesday. I don’t know what to do!
My partner is off work tomorrow (Monday) so he can keep a close eye on her, the vets will be shut though as it’s bank holiday. I’ve just given them there veggies, pellets and top up of hay for the night and she’s munching away as she always does. She done a pee on me last night which didn’t have any brown or red staining!
It’s seems to be very on and off!

I’m also wanting to see a different vet than what I saw last time which may be somewhat difficult! And if I remember rightly the exotic vet will be away for a few more days.

If it is the start of a cystitis or urinary tract infection, then you can wait until then because it takes a few days to really get going and become easily diagnosable. In the very early stages it is very much an off and on of affected pees interspersed with normal pees - although clear pees can test high for blood and reddish pees can come back free of blood.

As long as your piggy is OK in itself, then you are not dealing with an emergency can see a vet during regular opening hours.

 

[Hannah_xx]

If it is the start of a cystitis or urinary tract infection, then you can wait until then because it takes a few days to really get going and become easily diagnosable. In the very early stages it is very much an off and on of affected pees interspersed with normal pees - although clear pees can test high for blood and reddish pees can come back free of blood.

As long as your piggy is OK in itself, then you are not dealing with an emergency can see a vet during regular opening hours.

She’s been on 0.4mls of baytril twice a day for 6 days now, would have hoped that would have taken more of an effect by now if it was a UTI?
IF Mary continues to act normal, perhaps I should wait until the course is over (another3/4 days). Before I take her back to the vet to investigate further. So booking her in for an appointment on Thursday?

 

[Wiebke]

She’s been on 0.4mls of baytril twice a day for 6 days now, would have hoped that would have taken more of an effect by now if it was a UTI?
IF Mary continues to act normal, perhaps I should wait until the course is over (another3/4 days). Before I take her back to the vet to investigate further. So booking her in for an appointment on Thursday?

Yes, that would be the most sensible course of action. Please keep in mind that you could be dealing with a sterile cystitis, which an antibioic can't heal.

 

[Hannah_xx]

Yes, that would be the most sensible course of action. Please keep in mind that you could be dealing with a sterile cystitis, which an antibioic can't heal.

Thanks Wiebke, your help is always appreciated. I feel like I can hopefully put my mind at ease for a few days that she should hopefully be okay to wait to the vets on Thursday. When I have the day off. Then I can get the vet to do a thorough examination as to what’s going on, And I will mention sterile cystitis!
But of course if I noticed any changes in behaviour or illness I’ll take her to the vet ASAP!

 

[gigspinny]

You can either look for glucosamine based cat bladder supplements (preferably capsules) or for human glucosamine tablets (preferably vegetarian/vegan ones if they are available).

Can someone tell me why veggie and vegan ones would be better? I read the absorption/benefits for humans wasn't that great with veggie versions. Is it different for herbivores needing a veggie source?
I think I read here someone writing that the cat treatment capsules used vegan glucosamine but I can't see it written on the bottle. I'd love to know. Thanks.

 

[Hannah_xx]

Update!
I phoned the vets today to book an appointment for Thursday and typically as always.. The exotic vet won’t be there, He’s back next week and the only appointment I can have is next Friday, The 7th. I spoke to my vet on the phone to check with her that this will be okay for Mary to have to wait this long, We both agreed as Mary is acting fine it should be okay. However I will take her in soon if she becomes sick. She’s going to speak to the exotic vet to give him the run down on Mary’s problems. And she will hopefully join in on the examination and tests etc so she can learn and she wants to see Mary again because she’s so cute!
I noticed Wilma have an off coloured wee last night as well! So I asked the vet if it’s okay to use Mary’s medication for her as I have lots left. She said that’s fine and to give her 0.6 as Wilma is 1430g.

I read in another thread that UTI’s and cystitis is caused by stress, . I don’t feel like my pigs live a stressful life? we live in a quiet, small cottage, just the 2 of us and the pigs. I feed them good quality pellets, constant fresh hay and a small veggie dinner at night and I’m careful as not to give them veggies that are high in calcium or sugar.
Wilma I could understand perhaps slightly stressed as she’s only been here a few weeks, change of diet, living indoors now, new pigs next door etc. However she’s getting quite confident and seems happy?
I tried to bond Mary and Wilma a few weeks ago which didn’t go well unfortunately. I guess that could have led to stress but Mary has had these problems before well Wilma arriving.

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

Stress can play a part, but it isn't always the cause! However, as prey animals, guinea pigs can become stressed very easily. If you have access to grass, that is the ideal food, as it is a wet diet, that helps keep the system flushed through.