I don’t think I did this right

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Carebearpiggy

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Hello, sorry I’ve never had this issue. I just recently rescued a 1 year old piggy (as far as I’m aware she had to be rehomed for a personal issue and had been around other piggies, I’m not aware of those being bonded). I already have a 4 year old, 3 year old and a baby (that I just recently introduced to my herd about 2-3 weeks ago). I was doing introductions in a mutal space with the older ones and the 1 year old. I had hay, water and veggies in a play pen. Everything seemed to be doing great, they were eating, sniffing each other, and grooming themselves. Then once the veggies were gone and I accidentally moved the hidy hut i had there. My 4 year old and 2 year old had a little spat-no blood drawn but was teeth chattering, baring teeth and lifting heads for dominance I think and then they kind went lauching at each other kicking back legs but didn’t seem to be trying to bite each other (but not sure). I separated them for a little bit, by able to put a cage bar in the middle of the play pen. I never experienced this before as all mine have gotten along right away at introductions. I’m not sure if it’s because this piggy is on the older side or if maybe did have a bonded pair that someone spilt up). But in my mistake (I think) i let them have whole range of the playpen again and so after 30 mins every one has seemed to settle again and having no fighting (except now as I’m typing this I hear teething chattering but no posturing or teeth baring) plan on keeping them separated tonight. But how long do let them try to establish dominance before I say they can’t be together or when do I know it’s safe for them all to be together without supervision? I’ve never experienced this before. Thank you for any advice
 
Carebearpiggy said:
Hello, sorry I’ve never had this issue. I just recently rescued a 1 year old piggy (as far as I’m aware she had to be rehomed for a personal issue and had been around other piggies, I’m not aware of those being bonded). I already have a 4 year old, 3 year old and a baby (that I just recently introduced to my herd about 2-3 weeks ago). I was doing introductions in a mutal space with the older ones and the 1 year old. I had hay, water and veggies in a play pen. Everything seemed to be doing great, they were eating, sniffing each other, and grooming themselves. Then once the veggies were gone and I accidentally moved the hidy hut i had there. My 4 year old and 2 year old had a little spat-no blood drawn but was teeth chattering, baring teeth and lifting heads for dominance I think and then they kind went lauching at each other kicking back legs but didn’t seem to be trying to bite each other (but not sure). I separated them for a little bit, by able to put a cage bar in the middle of the play pen. I never experienced this before as all mine have gotten along right away at introductions. I’m not sure if it’s because this piggy is on the older side or if maybe did have a bonded pair that someone spilt up). But in my mistake (I think) i let them have whole range of the playpen again and so after 30 mins every one has seemed to settle again and having no fighting (except now as I’m typing this I hear teething chattering but no posturing or teeth baring) plan on keeping them separated tonight. But how long do let them try to establish dominance before I say they can’t be together or when do I know it’s safe for them all to be together without supervision? I’ve never experienced this before. Thank you for any advice
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Sorry the 1 year old not 2 year old
 
It sounds like things are a big fraught between your piggies. From what I have learned here, anything that can lead to a piggy being trapped or cornered should be taken out of the playpen, so hides should be taken away. Do you have an all female group? Is this baby definitely female? You may need to split the group, but let's see what the more experienced people say. Also, is your cage going to be big enough for four piggies? Whether they are male or female affects what size of cage would give them the best chance to get on with each other, but I think you probably have girls, just need to make sure. Welcome to the forum❤️
 
There should never be any hides in the neutral bonding pen. Hides allow for territories to be created and can cause issues when bonding. Only add hay and water in a bonding pen. Hides can only go into the cage once the first stages of bonding are complete and they move to their permanent cage.

How long have you had the 1 year old? Has she lived side by side with them for at least a few days or even weeks before you attempted to bond them?

You have to go by the behaviours you are seeing to determine whether the bonding as a trio will work - it’s not really a case of time and how long you let them establish dominance.

What you shouldn’t really do is repeatedly introduce and separate. Bonding is really a one time thing seen through to conclusion in one go.
It’s a touch less critical with sows with boars, but bonding should really be a one time event so do ensure you can see it through to conclusion - whether that success or failure - with the next attempt.

If you see normal dominance but they are interacting positively then you leave them in the bonding pen for as long as necessary - overnight even. Then move them to the cleaned out cage.

if you see negative behaviours and they don’t like each other, it doesn’t matter whether they’ve been in a bonding pen for five minutes or five hours - if they don’t like each other, then you need to end it there and then.
Do bear in mind that sows tend to bear grudges so if it fails then that is a permanent failure and you cannot try to bond them again.

Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated Bonding Dynamics and Behaviours
 
Truffolo said:
It sounds like things are a big fraught between your piggies. From what I have learned here, anything that can lead to a piggy being trapped or cornered should be taken out of the playpen, so hides should be taken away. Do you have an all female group? Is this baby definitely female? You may need to split the group, but let's see what the more experienced people say. Also, is your cage going to be big enough for four piggies? Whether they are male or female affects what size of cage would give them the best chance to get on with each other, but I think you probably have girls, just need to make sure. Welcome to the forum❤️
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T
Piggies&buns said:
There should never be any hides in the neutral bonding pen. Hides allow for territories to be created and can cause issues when bonding. Only add hay and water in a bonding pen. Hides can only go into the cage once the first stages of bonding are complete and they move to their permanent cage.

How long have you had the 1 year old? Has she lived side by side with them for at least a few days or even weeks before you attempted to bond them?

You have to go by the behaviours you are seeing to determine whether the bonding as a trio will work - it’s not really a case of time and how long you let them establish dominance.

What you shouldn’t really do is repeatedly introduce and separate. Bonding is really a one time thing seen through to conclusion in one go.
It’s a touch less critical with sows with boars, but bonding should really be a one time event so do ensure you can see it through to conclusion - whether that success or failure - with the next attempt.

If you see normal dominance but they are interacting positively then you leave them in the bonding pen for as long as necessary - overnight even. Then move them to the cleaned out cage.

if you see negative behaviours and they don’t like each other, it doesn’t matter whether they’ve been in a bonding pen for five minutes or five hours - if they don’t like each other, then you need to end it there and then.
Do bear in mind that sows tend to bear grudges so if it fails then that is a permanent failure and you cannot try to bond them again.

Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated Bonding Dynamics and Behaviours
Click to expand...
okay thank you. I was not aware of the hides. I feel like I set them up for failure. I’ve never really had an issue of dominance before, but I’ve always added babies to my others and never an adult. They did seem fine being next to each other, but maybe wasn’t long enough-it was a few days, maybe should’ve waited a few more days. I’m not sure how long I let them settle before moving to a cleaned out cage or call it and say they are not going to get along together. If not seeing any fighting again. I was also not aware of the rapid separation and reintroduction.
I feel bad that I wasn’t more informed about introducing these together, I thought I had done enough research but apparently not. :(
 
Carebearpiggy said:
T

okay thank you. I was not aware of the hides. I feel like I set them up for failure. I’ve never really had an issue of dominance before, but I’ve always added babies to my others and never an adult. They did seem fine being next to each other, but maybe wasn’t long enough-it was a few days, maybe should’ve waited a few more days. I’m not sure how long I let them settle before moving to a cleaned out cage or call it and say they are not going to get along together. If not seeing any fighting again. I was also not aware of the rapid separation and reintroduction.
I feel bad that I wasn’t more informed about introducing these together, I thought I had done enough research but apparently not. :(
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sorry not rapid repeatedly
 
So I read the articles and had some more questions, sorry to bother any body. If I try to reintroduce them today and see dominance behaviors but they don’t go at each other and actually have a nap together and wake up fine and a for like say an hour after than next step would be a cleaned out rearranged cage with two open ended hidys or tunnels, but if they start to lunge and kick at each but not biting each other still considered a no go. I do have a plan b if they do not work out but just wondering. I’m sorry I’m asking all these questions but all the piggies I have introduced together in past have been instant success and never even had the chin up or teeth chattering issue. This may not work as I may have a more dominant piggy and this one may just as dominant, but I would like to try.
 
They will need to be in the bonding pen - assuming all is going well - for several hours, overnight even.
The longer they are in the bonding the better.

Moving them to the cage starts a new round of dominance so you need them to be really comfortable with each other in neutral territory and far enough into bonding to be able to withstand the move.
Move them too early and it can cause problems.
 

Piggies&buns said:
They will need to be in the bonding pen - assuming all is going well - for several hours, overnight even.
The longer they are in the bonding the better.

Moving them to the cage starts a new round of dominance so you need them to be really comfortable with each other in neutral territory and far enough into bonding to be able to withstand the move.
Move them too early and it can cause problems.
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Okay so if all goes well like say 6-7 hours later maybe even longer than it may be okay to move to cage next? Thank you so much for all the answers/replies. I would like for this to work out but don’t want to stall or mess up the process.
 
Carebearpiggy said:
Okay so if all goes well like say 6-7 hours later maybe even longer than it may be okay to move to cage next? Thank you so much for all the answers/replies. I would like for this to work out but don’t want to stall or mess up the process.
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Yes that’s right. As long as you do it on neutral territory, don’t use hides in the bonding pen and have a back up plan in mind then really the rest of it is down to the piggies

Good luck
 
So I’m just curious. Yes they have a long time to go as it’s only been like an hour and 1/2 in the pen. At first they were eating and the new one was doing a little mounting and butt dragging but no full on fights, but then my two existing older ones starting to have a square off I’m assuming just a change in dominance to make sure the dominant one stays on top that turned into some teeth chattering a little bit of staring at each other but never saw and teeth baring or chin lighting, but then the more dominant one started chasing my other existing piggy and herd squealing but let it be as they were not lunging or biting each other than maybe small little butt nip but didn’t see any blood or fur coming off. The new one then did some yawning but that didn’t amount to anything. And just a few mins ago they were doing this (in the picture-the little one is too busy eating/exploring), no one has an issue with the baby. Is that good sign and if keeps going that way for let’s say another 5-6 hours-they can be introduced in the cage?
 

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Carebearpiggy said:
So I’m just curious. Yes they have a long time to go as it’s only been like an hour and 1/2 in the pen. At first they were eating and the new one was doing a little mounting and butt dragging but no full on fights, but then my two existing older ones starting to have a square off I’m assuming just a change in dominance to make sure the dominant one stays on top that turned into some teeth chattering a little bit of staring at each other but never saw and teeth baring or chin lighting, but then the more dominant one started chasing my other existing piggy and herd squealing but let it be as they were not lunging or biting each other than maybe small little butt nip but didn’t see any blood or fur coming off. The new one then did some yawning but that didn’t amount to anything. And just a few mins ago they were doing this (in the picture-the little one is too busy eating/exploring), no one has an issue with the baby. Is that good sign and if keeps going that way for let’s say another 5-6 hours-they can be introduced in the cage?
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And when move onto the next step how long do I have to watch them before I can kinda of say okay I can go to sleep now lol.
 
Carebearpiggy said:
So I’m just curious. Yes they have a long time to go as it’s only been like an hour and 1/2 in the pen. At first they were eating and the new one was doing a little mounting and butt dragging but no full on fights, but then my two existing older ones starting to have a square off I’m assuming just a change in dominance to make sure the dominant one stays on top that turned into some teeth chattering a little bit of staring at each other but never saw and teeth baring or chin lighting, but then the more dominant one started chasing my other existing piggy and herd squealing but let it be as they were not lunging or biting each other than maybe small little butt nip but didn’t see any blood or fur coming off. The new one then did some yawning but that didn’t amount to anything. And just a few mins ago they were doing this (in the picture-the little one is too busy eating/exploring), no one has an issue with the baby. Is that good sign and if keeps going that way for let’s say another 5-6 hours-they can be introduced in the cage?
Click to expand...
Okay never mind, have had a few more chasing issues just trying to let them work it out as they have not had any full on fights
 
Carebearpiggy said:
Okay never mind, have had a few more chasing issues just trying to let them work it out as they have not had any full on fights
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So have had a few more chases-how long do I let them chase each other before I call it or just let them unless a full fight or blood drawn happens? The one I think is trying to stay at the top is the one doing the chasing and it happens for maybe 2-3 times around the perimeter of the neutral playpen I have set up and then they stop and either ignore each other and go lay down or go eat.
 
Unfortunately it's the middle of the night in the UK and I personally don't have an answer
 
Carebearpiggy said:
T

okay thank you. I was not aware of the hides. I feel like I set them up for failure. I’ve never really had an issue of dominance before, but I’ve always added babies to my others and never an adult. They did seem fine being next to each other, but maybe wasn’t long enough-it was a few days, maybe should’ve waited a few more days. I’m not sure how long I let them settle before moving to a cleaned out cage or call it and say they are not going to get along together. If not seeing any fighting again. I was also not aware of the rapid separation and reintroduction.
I feel bad that I wasn’t more informed about introducing these together, I thought I had done enough research but apparently not. :(
Click to expand...
Don't worry, everyone is learning all the time with piggies. We are here to help do your questions are most welcome ❤️
 
It's good to do health checks. Here is the guide to assessing your piggies' wellbeing. Some older females can develop ovarian cysts which make them behave more like males. The sign of this is having crusty skin on their nipples. It affects their behaviour and if they have signs of ovarian cysts they should see the vet. Buf hopefully none of your piggies will have this problem.
Daily Care Guides
 
The dominant sow will reinforce her position. However Sometimes adding a new pig can cause problems between the existing piggies. If that was to happen often it can mean the bonding could well fail. It depends what happens over the coming time.
How is the 1 year old being viewed? Is there any dominance towards her from the second pig in the hierarchy?

Squealing is Submission though which is a good thing.

Do remember though that you are less likely to see a full fight with sows. The equivalent in sows is pulling hair out of each other
 
Truffolo said:
It's good to do health checks. Here is the guide to assessing your piggies' wellbeing. Some older females can develop ovarian cysts which make them behave more like males. The sign of this is having crusty skin on their nipples. It affects their behaviour and if they have signs of ovarian cysts they should see the vet. Buf hopefully none of your piggies will have this problem.
Daily Care Guides
Click to expand...

While this is true, such behaviours would be seen outside of a bonding situation. Chasing and mounting during bonding is normal
 
Piggies&buns said:
The dominant sow will reinforce her position. However Sometimes adding a new pig can cause problems between the existing piggies. If that was to happen often it can mean the bonding could well fail. It depends what happens over the coming time.
How is the 1 year old being viewed? Is there any dominance towards her from the second pig in the hierarchy?

Squealing is Submission though which is a good thing.

Do remember though that you are less likely to see a full fight with sows. The equivalent in sows is pulling hair out of each other
Click to expand...

There were not many issues towards the middle sow, at the very beginning there was some mounting from new pig to her but that kinda has gone away.

The more dominant one-I had some fleece in pen and she keeps hiding under it now and there may be a little bit of teeth chattering and a tiny chase not as bad as in the beginning.
 
Carebearpiggy said:
There were not many issues towards the middle sow, at the very beginning there was some mounting from new pig to her but that kinda has gone away.

The more dominant one-I had some fleece in pen and she keeps hiding under it now and there may be a little bit of teeth chattering and a tiny chase not as bad as in the beginning.
Click to expand...

I have a feeling I’m going to have to leave them in there overnight, but not sure what I need to do for that as I do need to get sleep lol.
 
If they are ok together (they aren’t injuring each other) then do leave them in the pen and get some sleep.
 
Piggies&buns said:
If they are ok together (they aren’t injuring each other) then do leave them in the pen and get some sleep.
Click to expand...

It’s mainly chasing and talking but I do hear teeth chattering now I’m not sure if to call it and say this piggy is not going to work out or leave them?
I can sleep right next to the pen, but I’m a very sound sleeper. I may have be away from them for maybe 1-2 hours max though
 
These are OK, right up to a furball fight. So for now if looks OK 🤞It's going to take some time for them to settle. Can anyone piggy sit while you are out?
 
If the dominance is within the mild realms then you leave them to get on with it.
In a successful bond you are going to see mild dominance and certainly will for the next two weeks while the details of the hierarchy are finalised

I added the dominance guide earlier which gives a traffic light system for behaviours

You are less likely to see a furball fight in sows (although it can happen) - such a fight is more of a boar thing. The sow equivalent is pulling hair out of each other
 
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