Introduction Setback - Help!

[Featheryfriend]

Okay, long story short, I was planning on posting some of cute pics of my new herd getting along happily this morning, as they were, but we had some pig difficulties during the night... I slept on the couch near the cage so I could wake up and check on them frequently, as I didn't want to make it final by separating them with a barrier.

Penny and her 3 new buddies (bonded trio) spent a day and a night as next-door neighbors and there was no aggressive body language. Yesterday they spent about 6 hours in a neutral playpen together, and other than a tense 20 minutes where Penny and the lowest-ranking member of the existing group (Sage) appeared to battle for third place in hierarchy (quite a bit of teeth chattering and leaping and butting into each other, but no biting) they did pretty well, and by the end they were all eating and napping together peacefully. I set a laundry basket down to transport them and they all hopped in together.

Once back in the cage, they continued to nap and eat together in harmony for several hours until at some point Penny decided to seize control of almost 2/3 of the cage (2x8 grid C&C). I had laundered everything and wiped the coro down with vinegar before combing the two 2x4 grid cages into one, and there is nothing in there to squabble over but hay and paper bags with the ends cut off, but I think something is still making her think it's HER cage, probably some visual cue. The other three are huddled up on one side now to avoid her trollish behavior (yawning and chasing). I think they're pretty confused, since she obviously liked them before the cage coup. They are all much beefier than her and appear more offended than intimidated.

So I'm thinking my plan for today is for everyone to go back in the playpen, for all day and night if necessary, since everyone was getting along in that environment, and more or less start over from square one. What can I do to reduce the odds of repeat territorial takeover when they go back into the cage, other than another laundering and vinegar wipedown? I don't want to give up yet, since they did get along for hours on end and there hasn't been any injurious or prolonged fighting - I also saw a lot of positive behaviors like grooming together, face kisses, mutual butt sniffing, resting in close proximity, etc. I think there's the start of a beautiful friendship in there somewhere, but someone is just not accustomed to sharing her space. Do they still have a shot?

 

[Lady Kelly]

I would leave them to it personally as long as there's no biting or bullying. At the end of the day bonding on neutral territory is the first step, the cage is another new space and they need to sort out the hierarchy between them. If you are seeing dominance interspersed with positive behaviour I would stick with it and hope for the best. I remember those tense feelings so much and it's much worse for us humans to witness than it is for the piggies to go through!

 

[Featheryfriend]

I would leave them to it personally as long as there's no biting or bullying. At the end of the day bonding on neutral territory is the first step, the cage is another new space and they need to sort out the hierarchy between them. If you are seeing dominance interspersed with positive behaviour I would stick with it and hope for the best. I remember those tense feelings so much and it's much worse for us humans to witness than it is for the piggies to go through!

Oh it is just dreadful to witness, they're so tiny and sweet but they're acting like little monsters!

 

[Wiebke]

Okay, long story short, I was planning on posting some of cute pics of my new herd getting along happily this morning, as they were, but we had some pig difficulties during the night... I slept on the couch near the cage so I could wake up and check on them frequently, as I didn't want to make it final by separating them with a barrier.

Penny and her 3 new buddies (bonded trio) spent a day and a night as next-door neighbors and there was no aggressive body language. Yesterday they spent about 6 hours in a neutral playpen together, and other than a tense 20 minutes where Penny and the lowest-ranking member of the existing group (Sage) appeared to battle for third place in hierarchy (quite a bit of teeth chattering and leaping and butting into each other, but no biting) they did pretty well, and by the end they were all eating and napping together peacefully. I set a laundry basket down to transport them and they all hopped in together.

Once back in the cage, they continued to nap and eat together in harmony for several hours until at some point Penny decided to seize control of almost 2/3 of the cage (2x8 grid C&C). I had laundered everything and wiped the coro down with vinegar before combing the two 2x4 grid cages into one, and there is nothing in there to squabble over but hay and paper bags with the ends cut off, but I think something is still making her think it's HER cage, probably some visual cue. The other three are huddled up on one side now to avoid her trollish behavior (yawning and chasing). I think they're pretty confused, since she obviously liked them before the cage coup. They are all much beefier than her and appear more offended than intimidated.

So I'm thinking my plan for today is for everyone to go back in the playpen, for all day and night if necessary, since everyone was getting along in that environment, and more or less start over from square one. What can I do to reduce the odds of repeat territorial takeover when they go back into the cage, other than another laundering and vinegar wipedown? I don't want to give up yet, since they did get along for hours on end and there hasn't been any injurious or prolonged fighting - I also saw a lot of positive behaviors like grooming together, face kisses, mutual butt sniffing, resting in close proximity, etc. I think there's the start of a beautiful friendship in there somewhere, but someone is just not accustomed to sharing her space. Do they still have a shot?

Hi!

Please remove any hideys with only one exit and any food bowls (at least one per piggy) outside meal times.

Take the time to carefully read our detailed bonding and sow behaviour guides; you should find them very helpful in learning to read and judge the behaviuiours you are seeing and in understanding the dynamics at play.
Bonding is a very complex process which runs through several stages, each with their own specific behaviours and dynamics. It is a much longer process than a few hours in a bonding pen. Your sows are now in the dominance phase, which takes around 2 weeks but should hopefully gradually lessen in intensity over that period. Please do not interfere if you see only the behaviours listed as normal for that stage.
Here are the two links, which will help you put things into persepctive for you:
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
Sows: Behaviour and female health problems (including ovarian cysts)

 

[Featheryfriend]

Hi!

Please remove any hideys with only one exit and any food bowls (at least one per piggy) outside meal times.

Take the time to carefully read our detailed bonding and sow behaviour guides; you should find them very helpful in learning to read and judge the behaviuiours you are seeing and in understanding the dynamics at play.
Bonding is a very complex process which runs through several stages, each with their own specific behaviours and dynamics. It is a much longer process than a few hours in a bonding pen. Your sows are now in the dominance phase, which takes around 2 weeks but should hopefully gradually lessen in intensity over that period. Please do not interfere if you see only the behaviours listed as normal for that stage.
Here are the two links, which will help you put things into persepctive for you:
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
Sows: Behaviour and female health problems (including ovarian cysts)

I read the bonding guide before starting, and also watched a bunch of videos so I could learn what different behaviors look like - I'm just really worried things are too intense in there and that perhaps Penny does not have the necessary social skills to make nice. I would say she seems to have a lot of fear-agression. The trio can't make it past the invisible line Penny has drawn without being bopped, and though they let her in their space, it's pretty tense this morning. They ate some veggies together but Penny had her hackles up the whole time.

 

[Wiebke]

I read the bonding guide before starting, and also watched a bunch of videos so I could learn what different behaviors look like - I'm just really worried things are too intense in there and that perhaps Penny does not have the necessary social skills to make nice. I would say she seems to have a lot of fear-agression. The trio can't make it past the invisible line Penny has drawn without being bopped, and though they let her in their space, it's pretty tense this morning. They ate some veggies together but Penny had her hackles up the whole time.

Use the guides as your kind of reference to consult throughout the whole process. If in doubt and if tensions are very high after the first day, you can separate sows and mixed gender groupings overnight once they have made it past setting up a rough hierarchy; you just can't do it with boars. I would however not separate now and leave them to it as much as possible as long as their are no signs of real aggression.

Give it time; the private sphere should hopefully shrink somewhat over the course of the next few days; fear aggressive piggies can be very stand-offish and throw their weight around.

If tensions/body language stays very high over the course of a week (unless there is a serious incident, then I would consider calling it off and giving your older girl more as a next door neighbour.

 

[Featheryfriend]

Thank you, you've eased my mind. My back-up plan is to have them be neighbors, but I still have hope of them working it out. I will give them more time.

 

[Featheryfriend]

After a few more hours I'm starting to feel like I have two groups of 3 guinea pigs: Juniper + Parsley + Penny, and Juniper + Parsley + Sage.

Sage and Penny are struggling to stay in the vicinity of one another, they have to have a chin-off every time they spot one another and I've heard a couple snorts from Sage. One always leaves or gets chased off. Sage is also a more nervous, shy personality.

Juniper and Parsley are pretty chill and casual, I think they're trending towards having more positive interactions with Penny than negative. There's been some butt nipping but they make up immediately afterwards. They don't seem to be closing ranks against her on account of Sage's ambivalence.

I was wondering about the feasibility of attempting to split them into 2 pairs if Sage and Penny ultimately fail to resolve their issues after a few more days or progress to a full-on fight. Parsley and Sage appear to have a special bond, but I'm wondering if Juniper and Penny could be a good match on their own. I think Juniper is too enormous and alpha-minded for Penny to ever truly bully, she'd just back it up over her like a Tonka truck. But if breaking up the trio would traumatize them or anything, there's always the arrangement of the three of them on one side of a divide and Penny alone on the other. Just thought I'd ask.

 

[Wiebke]

After a few more hours I'm starting to feel like I have two groups of 3 guinea pigs: Juniper + Parsley + Penny, and Juniper + Parsley + Sage.

Sage and Penny are struggling to stay in the vicinity of one another, they have to have a chin-off every time they spot one another and I've heard a couple snorts from Sage. One always leaves or gets chased off. Sage is also a more nervous, shy personality.

Juniper and Parsley are pretty chill and casual, I think they're trending towards having more positive interactions with Penny than negative. There's been some butt nipping but they make up immediately afterwards. They don't seem to be closing ranks against her on account of Sage's ambivalence.

I was wondering about the feasibility of attempting to split them into 2 pairs if Sage and Penny ultimately fail to resolve their issues after a few more days or progress to a full-on fight. Parsley and Sage appear to have a special bond, but I'm wondering if Juniper and Penny could be a good match on their own. I think Juniper is too enormous and alpha-minded for Penny to ever truly bully, she'd just back it up over her like a Tonka truck. But if breaking up the trio would traumatize them or anything, there's always the arrangement of the three of them on one side of a divide and Penny alone on the other. Just thought I'd ask.

I would recommend to split them into two pairs; this will hopefully calm down the tension, which is stressful for the group as a whole.
Keep any special bonds alive if they exist. Try with a temporary divider for two days and then take it from there.

 

[Featheryfriend]

Of course, right after I posted that Sage and Penny decided to have a little breakthrough. They acted like they were going to spat again but then decided to face-groom and eat together instead. That was a wonderful sight. We'll see if it sticks! If not, then I'll see about splitting them into 2 pairs tonight so everyone can calm down. Thank you Wiebke, I really value your advice on group dynamics. I knew it could get complicated going from 1 to 4 piggies but I'm truly loving having these little gals around, even with their sass right now. They are all so unique.

 

[Featheryfriend]

Is this a positive sign for Penny and Sage or more bad mojo? I know it's probably a power lie-in but it does look more constructive than teeth-gnashing. If they're finally making progress I don't want to disrupt them.

 

[Featheryfriend]

Never mind! Though Penny continued trying to make some friendlier gestures and get closer, and relations were looking more civil for a time, Sage suddenly stopped reciprocating and then tried to go in for the kill. I broke them up with an oven mitt. I don't think anything could have averted that outcome, in the end those two really did not mesh. Thanks anyway y'all.

Fortunately no one was hurt (except the oven mitt, it took a beating) and now we have two nice calm pairs of guinea pigs instead of one angry, screaming cluster.

Penny/Juniper seem well on their way to being a cuddly duo. I'm not really worried about them. Parsley/Sage don't appear to be perturbed by the absence of their bossy third wheel. I think everyone wound up with their best-matched buddy, plus neighbors, so I'd call that a happy outcome.

These sure are some socially complex critters. I wish I could read their little minds and know exactly what Penny and Sage found so distasteful about one another.