Iris isnt very well! Helppppp!

[alcesterpigs]

What seems "logical" and a "good idea" may not always be supported by fact.
I have treated many gps over the years and have never been aware of side effects,
this could be either because I have missed them or there haven't been any.
I hope I am open-minded enough to accept scientifically validated evidence to show that I must change my outlook on this matter.

 

[aussiegirl]

I'm really sorry I can't help but I just want to wish you all the best for her safe recovery

 

[Missbonbon]

What seems "logical" and a "good idea" may not always be supported by fact.
I have treated many gps over the years and have never been aware of side effects,
this could be either because I have missed them or there haven't been any.
I hope I am open-minded enough to accept scientifically validated evidence to show that I must change my outlook on this matter.

I have seen a significant difference between piggies that have been given pro biotics and those who haven't.
I agree with sophie, I would rather given them than not.

Don't take this the wrong way but alot of your posts seem to put a negative outlook on other people's practices and views.
Everyone has their own ways of looking after/medicating their piggies.

 

[Stinklepig]

Alc.pigs, all I can say is you've either been lucky, or never noticed the digestive impact of a full dose of Baytril.

I have, what comes out the back goes from normal to varying in size, and more noticeably consistency. It's not at all unusual to see mucous between poo, bubblews of mucous, and other anomalies. All of which appear soon after Baytril but weren't repesent before. The logical (sorry to espouse logic here) conclusion is the antibiotics have a negative impact on the normal balance of gut bacteria, which increases intestinal mucous production as well as reduced digestive capability. This is because antibiotics, especially broad spectrum ones, *do* inhibit or kill (depending on the antibiotic in question) gut bacteria required for healthy digestion. The very nature of an antibiotic *is* to kill bacteria, and the wider the scope of that killing the higher the chance it will also kill bacteria you don't want killed. A narrow spectrum antibiotic will have less impact, maybe none, but is also likely to be less effective against the systemic bacteria you are trying to use it against.

The reason we don't give oral penicillin (the fear from oral administration may be preventing using it in injectable form, but is understandable) is it is *so* harsh on the digestive tract it can and frequently will be lethal within a very short space of time. It's not a huge leap to conclude that other antibiotics can have similar, if not so severe, effects.

The use of probiotics in humans on certain antibiotics is not unheard of for similar reasons. Although our digestive systems aren't as delicate as that of 1kg herbivores, antibiotics still aren't the kindest thing to put through them.

As probiotics invariably contain levels of electrolytes and certain vitamins, I cannot see any reason to refuse to give them if only for the secondary benefits of these additions. A 100g tub of Avipro for example will last for far longer than one regular treatment of antibiotics for one piggie, costs less than £10, and helps boost vit A C and E levels in the diet as well as containing electrolytes, a level of fibre and of course certain bacteria.

Even if I didn't have logic and experience to back my opinion up, I would rather go with "a good idea" that certainly won't hurt, than decide it's all bunkum and possibly be denying my critters something that may be of invaluable help.

 

[Miss Magpie]

Shes still kinda the same today and I'm getting anxious as ive only seen a small improvement in her in the last 3 days. I think I'm going to be taking her back to the vet 2moro.
Also I gave Iris some probiotic last night and I saw her eat much more than she has before. I have noticed her poops have gone very strange in shape, size and texture though and shes still squeaking when she poops.

Does anyone know how much water I need to be giving her everyday as she's stopped drinking from the bottle altogether.

p

 

[KingBoris&HisFollowers]

i give Boris as much watery fruit an veges as he will take and you can quite easily see by how alert they are as to whether they are hydrated properly or not goodluck i hope Iris is better soon sending my love to herxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[Tracyxx]

There may not be any published evidence, but I have used Baytril many times on my own guineas, with and without a probiotic. Baytril can have horrid side effects and can really knock off a guinea pig's apetite. Daisy was on Baytril with her abscess and I gave her a probiotic and she was fine - no upset tummies, or anything. Humans also benefit from probiotic when on antibiotics - why should guineas be any different?
I hope Iris is better soon.

 

[alcesterpigs]

"Don't take this the wrong way but alot of your posts seem to put a negative outlook on other people's practices and views"
Missbonbon:
I went out of my way to be careful NOT to say other people were wrong, indeed, I questioned my own experiences. Anyone must be prepared to defend their own views and also to have the right to ask for supporting evidence from those who hold opposing views. I do try to be unambiguous in what I post so that, hopefully, their is no possibilty of misinterpretation. It would seem that ,occasionally, my hope is misplaced.
I can only repeat my request that maybe someone can provide independent evidence of the usefullness, or otherwise, of probiotics when administering Baytril. Contrary to what you think, Missbonbon, I agree with the "it seems a good idea" and "it's logical" school of thinking but I still want factual evidence which, as yet, no-one has posted on the thread.

 

[Missbonbon]

Maybe it is the way your posts are worded that makes them sound slightly negative towards others.
The most important thing is to give advice to the person who started the thread and not the factual evidence.
People's own experience can be evidence enough for many people.

If you wish to discuss the 'Independent evidence' further maybe you should start a new thread, as I dont want to stray away from the members original thread looking for advice.

 

[alcesterpigs]

Mbb
I hope you didn't mean exactly what you have just posted........about giving advice and not factual evidence.
Advice must have basis in fact. People looking for help will ask for themselves "What is the justification for the advice?"
For example, if you were told your car needed a new engine, or that your washing machine needed replacing, would you just accept it without question?
These days it is all about informed consent/opinion. No longer is the word of an expert automatically accepted without question.
To that end I can state I have no factual evidence to support NOT giving probiotics.
I now want to see the supporters produce their evidence. What could be fairer, this is the place for informed debate after all?

 

[Stinklepig]

Shes still kinda the same today and I'm getting anxious as ive only seen a small improvement in her in the last 3 days. I think I'm going to be taking her back to the vet 2moro.

These things do take time, but the only harm in another trip can be to your bank account so deifnitey get her back in if you're at all concerned

Also I gave Iris some probiotic last night and I saw her eat much more than she has before. I have noticed her poops have gone very strange in shape, size and texture though and shes still squeaking when she poops.

The digestive upset of the Baytril and probably lack of normal diet (from not eating enough, or being more picky with available foods) will go a long way to explain what you're seeing. And everything is quite tightly packed back there, so the pain could be related to the UTI as much as anything else.

Does anyone know how much water I need to be giving her everyday as she's stopped drinking from the bottle altogether.

As much as you can get in her. If she'll take it with cranberry mixed in, then even better, but do try and make sure you can get as much cranberry in her as possible before she spits it in your face or savages you! Given her condition I would suggest getting *at least* 40ml daily in her, but the more the better provided she is passing urine. I say that as there *might* be an issue with a stone, I can't remember the full details in this thread to know if that's been discounted with an x ray.

It's pretty common for piggies with UTIs to go off their food a bit, so you need to keep an eye on her weight as well as watching her eat. If she starts to drop then it's time to syringe feed (again, can't remember if you've mentioned that or not?).

Given her poo is getting a bit abnormal it's well worth bringing up with the vet whether an injection of Metaclopromide would be of use. I suspect it would be, but equally I feel she should be on a decent dose of Septrin rather than Baytril, and the more you tell the vet how to do their job, the less pleasant they tend to get! Sometimes *you* have to prioritise the treatment needed so you only have one heated moment in the surgery, and save the other till the next day...

 

[Stinklepig]

Mbb
I hope you didn't mean exactly what you have just posted........about giving advice and not factual evidence.
Advice must have basis in fact. People looking for help will ask for themselves "What is the justification for the advice?"
For example, if you were told your car needed a new engine, or that your washing machine needed replacing, would you just accept it without question?
These days it is all about informed consent/opinion. No longer is the word of an expert automatically accepted without question.
To that end I can state I have no factual evidence to support NOT giving probiotics.
I now want to see the supporters produce their evidence. What could be fairer, this is the place for informed debate after all?

I haven't read any studies as MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE tallies with both logic *and* knowledgeable vets who recommend probiotic use. I don't need to know the chemistry of petrol to know it makes my car work, nor do I need to know electrical principles to operate a refridgerator. Some things require a deep understanding to use effectively, others are no more challenging to accept than the instructions on a microwave dinner.

Any evidence I have for the use of probiotics will have been long flushed/ binned, as I'm not in the habit of collecting, preserving and labelling pig poo for posterity. However, I can categorically state that having given antibiotics in the past without probiotic (due to knowing nothing about them at the time), and *with* probiotic in more recent years, I have witnessed a difference. I can also be certain to have witnessed a difference in what falls out a pigs backside that can only be explained by the use of antibiotics as that was the only change within a 24 hour timeframe.

Sometimes all we have to go on, and all we need to go on, is what experience has taught us. I don't need to dress up in a white coat and torture a statiscally viable sample of guinea pigs so I can write up a paper on something that is so blindingly obvious from a mere handful of cases in much loved guinea pigs in uncontrolled conditions as they are part of my family, not a scientific curiosity.

I don't wish to continue the derailment of this thread, but I'm struggling to understand *why* you are so obsessed with *not* providing a treatment that at worst is a waste of money that cannot do any harm, and at best could save a life.

 

[alcesterpigs]

Spig
I take your point, money no object when it comes to treating gp.
However, I still want to know the facts. I must have treated well into the hundreds of pigs with Baytril. I am now thnking back to see if I did NOT give them the best treatment. That is why I want the facts from those better qualified than me, or maybe most of the posters on the forum. I am, I suppose, looking for the results from a controlled, double-blind study into the effectiveness of pro-biotics.
I shall have to start the search courtesy of Google!
An easier question for you and everybody else; why do some words have * * around them? There doesn't seem to be any logic in when/why they appear!!

 

[Laura-CCC4]

AP - The * * is another form of emphasis, and it can indicate an "action" e.g. *never* do so and so, and in the case of an action, *hugs*. I use it for either.

I hope Iris starts picking up very soon. I agree with the advice re probiotics, fluids etc. that Stinklepig has given you. Keep us updated on the little girl. x

 

[alcesterpigs]

ccc4
Thanks, I tend to use bold.!

 

[alcesterpigs]

Deleted, double post.

 

[Tracyxx]

I think I have posted my evidence. When I use Baytril, the treated guinea pig suffers from anorexia and digestive upset, and sometimes bloating. Doubled with a probiotic, I don't have any of the side effects. If I was giving advice to someone else with a pig on Baytril, I'd tell them that.

 

[Missbonbon]

What could be fairer, this is the place for informed debate after all?

This is a discussion forum not a debating forum.
I dont wish to debate with you, I have said my bit and will leave it now, so we can get back to the original topic of this thread.

 

[Missbonbon]

I think I have posted my evidence. When I use Baytril, the treated guinea pig suffers from anorexia and digestive upset, and sometimes bloating. Doubled with a probiotic, I don't have any of the side effects. If I was giving advice to someone else with a pig on Baytril, I'd tell them that.

Exactly! I totally agree with you. Some people on here obviously enjoy a heated debate when its not neccessary.

 

[Miss Magpie]

alcesterpigs, "People's own experience can be evidence enough for many people", as this is a forum, it is here for people to give eachother support and advice. Yes I understand some can be wrong or need to be corrected and you might not agree with some things but this thread is about my guinea pig and her illness and you are making things worse for me.
I am out of my Mind with worry over this piggie and I'm coming on here for advice and support to help me keep myself together because I want to do everything I can for her. I've scoured the internet and asked as many questions as i can on here and anything that I can try to make my girl better is going to help me as well as it might help her.
I dont appreciate the arguing going on here. I know your all trying to help me and i am so so grateful but please can we stick to what this thread is about and answer my questions with your own advice and not just attack someone elses attempt to help me out.

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as rude, I am grateful for the advice and please keep helping me but dont use this as a slanging match.

 

[Missbonbon]

Shes still kinda the same today and I'm getting anxious as ive only seen a small improvement in her in the last 3 days. I think I'm going to be taking her back to the vet 2moro.
Also I gave Iris some probiotic last night and I saw her eat much more than she has before. I have noticed her poops have gone very strange in shape, size and texture though and shes still squeaking when she poops.

Does anyone know how much water I need to be giving her everyday as she's stopped drinking from the bottle altogether.

p

One of my piggies is going through exactly the same thing, she is on an antibiotic called Engemycin LA (0.2ml injected every 3 days), plus an anti inflamatory pain killer.
Her poops became very sloopy, definately not how they should be. After giving her probiotics they improved alot, although she is still squeaking when going.
I do recommed putting her in a very shallow bath this will soothe the soreness and help until you can take her back to the vet. I have done this every few days and my piggie appreciates it as it soothes the pain.

I would try to syringe her as much water as she will take without going overboard, any fluid intake is better than none. OR will she eat veg high in water? Cucumber for example.

I hope she improves soon, I am taking one day at a time with my piggie, she has been on the antibiotics for over a week and I hope by next week she will be better.

 

[Miss Magpie]

One of my piggies is going through exactly the same thing, she is on an antibiotic called Engemycin LA (0.2ml injected every 3 days), plus an anti inflamatory pain killer.
Her poops became very sloopy, definately not how they should be. After giving her probiotics they improved alot, although she is still squeaking when going.
I do recommed putting her in a very shallow bath this will soothe the soreness and help until you can take her back to the vet. I have done this every few days and my piggie appreciates it as it soothes the pain.

I would try to syringe her as much water as she will take without going overboard, any fluid intake is better than none. OR will she eat veg high in water? Cucumber for example.

I hope she improves soon, I am taking one day at a time with my piggie, she has been on the antibiotics for over a week and I hope by next week she will be better.

Shes had a bath yesturday and a bath today. I can tell she likes it to be honest, either that or she knows I'm trying to help her. I put a little salt in the water too.
I've given her watermelon and cucumber but I'm going to try in a minute and get some probiotic, cranberry and water in her.
I'm taking her to the vets 2moro as I'm not happy about how shes doing and I'm concerned about the medication shes been given so I'm also going to get a second opinion.
Shes been so loving since shes been ill. Shes cuddling with me when shes normally quite skittish. Its like she knows I'm trying to help her and I'm glad shes taking comfort from me.
Sorry if i offended you from my previous post.

 

[Vikki]

Bless her I hope all goes well at the vets tomorrow and you have your questions answered.

 

[Stinklepig]

One of my piggies is going through exactly the same thing, she is on an antibiotic called Engemycin LA (0.2ml injected every 3 days), plus an anti inflamatory pain killer.
Her poops became very sloopy, definately not how they should be. After giving her probiotics they improved alot, although she is still squeaking when going.

Never heard of Engemycin before, so had to look it up. Seems to be a brand name for Oxytetracyclin, which, if Wiki is to be belived, can have digestive upsets as one of its main side effects. So there's that mystery solved

I guess even when injected traces of the antibiotic can still find their way rearwards!

I'm taking her to the vets 2moro as I'm not happy about how shes doing and I'm concerned about the medication shes been given so I'm also going to get a second opinion.

Sounds like a plan. It can take 3 to 5 days to really see any benefits of antibiotics making an appearance, but you don't want to be shoving syringes of something that isn't working in her mouth forever. And I really would try bringing up digestive irregularities with an aim to getting a jab of Metaclopromide if her poo is getting stranger.

Shes been so loving since shes been ill. Shes cuddling with me when shes normally quite skittish. Its like she knows I'm trying to help her and I'm glad shes taking comfort from me.

Sounds like she's pretty comforatble with you, which is always handy when medical attention is needed!

 

[alcesterpigs]

Calm down, everybody, I can sense that the cortisol levels are rising.

 

[alcesterpigs]

There is something else you could try, at the risk of people getting upset, and that is to stop all medication as nothing appears to be having much effect at all.
I have read all 6 pages again, and again, I don't think anyone has raised the possibility that Iris may have a stone stuck in her urethra.
I have had sows with this problem in the past. It has caused them to be in discomfort when attempting to pass pellets. They showed no sign of pain/discomfort when urinating as a stone which has been present for a long time will have a groove on one side along which the urine can easily pass.

 

[Miss Magpie]

Warning...poop picture

Just thought I'd put a piggie face to a piggie name
To share this pretty little face that I love and to lighten the mood xoxo

Here she is cuddling with me just after I gave her some cranberry juice.

And...hoping nobodys put off their food or grossed out..I took a pic of her poop just to show you all *** i think its pretty bad?

The vets hopefully tomorrow. I've got to ring them in the morning to get an appointment.

 

[Tracyxx]

Aww. What a PRETTY pig, gorgeous!
Yeah..those poops are pretty sloppy. I'm torn as what to do here, as you don't want to overload her with heavy food but you do need to keep her topped up with fluids - give her plenty of hay and cucumber, and watch her water intake. Do you have a Pets at Home near you? You can buy a probiotic there. This is exactly why I use a probiotic with Baytril! Poor little thing, bless her. Hugs for Iris xx

 

[Miss Magpie]

Aww. What a PRETTY pig, gorgeous!
Yeah..those poops are pretty sloppy. I'm torn as what to do here, as you don't want to overload her with heavy food but you do need to keep her topped up with fluids - give her plenty of hay and cucumber, and watch her water intake. Do you have a Pets at Home near you? You can buy a probiotic there. This is exactly why I use a probiotic with Baytril! Poor little thing, bless her. Hugs for Iris xx

I got some from the vet its called Biolapis i think. Its for rabbits so i dilute it down for her. Shes not really drinking water so i have to syringe it to her and I'm giving her cucumber and water melon and unlimited hay. I'm giving her a bath everyday aswell so make her comfortable but also to stop her wee burning her skin.
hehe Her full name is Lady Iris as I think shes got such a pretty face, her daughter (Greta) on the other hand is absolutely nuts. Funniest piggy ive ever had but Iris is a sweetie and sometimes stroppy Proper lady
Thanks for the help and compliments! p

 

[alcesterpigs]

Typical pellets of a dehydrated pig. At the risk of repeating what may have been said before, have you tried Dioralyte rehydration fluid?