Is Olivia depressed/pining?

[Davide]

Hi all,
I think I could use the forum's wisdom and experience on this one.

We had a wonderful, very well bonded trio of girls, but sadly Mia, the one in the middle in terms of age and hierarchy, passed away on Saturday.
As shocked as we are, we kept monitoring the other 2 girls in the last 2 days, and one of them, Olivia, hasn't been behaving like she used to. She's always been very extroverted if you know what I mean, but today for example she's has barely come out of the hide. She used to come out and stand up begging for food as soon as she heard someone in the room, particularly in the morning.
She doesn't look to be in physical pain, when she does get out her behavior is not concerning, at least so far, but we're keeping a constant eye on her.

I'd like to ask if you think this could be a reaction to not being with Mia anymore?
This would be a bit unexpected, Oliva was never clinging on to Mia or anyone, she always seemed a very calm and independent piggy to us, but at the same time she came to our house together with Mia, when Mia was only 5 weeks old. I don't know if maybe Olivia had a strong attachment than we thought, since she almost raised Mia, and now she's struggling?

I know probably no one can know for sure, but I thought I'd ask based on your experience if there's a possibility she's grieving and if there's something we could do, honestly this has caught me a bit by surprise and after losing Mia so suddenly it's only natural to be concerned about the other 2 girls.

Thank you so much for your help! Picture of Olivia here because she's very sweet, and secretly my favourite

 

[Piggies&buns]

I’m sorry for your loss

Piggies do grieve and some do so very noticeably. Piggies interact in ways we can’t detect so it is likely their bond was deeper than was obvious.
All you can do is keep an eye on her, and in particular her weight to ensure she is eating enough hay, and give her some time

Sending hugs

Looking After a Bereaved Guinea Pig

 

[Mrs Tiggy Winkle]

I'd like to ask if you think this could be a reaction to not being with Mia anymore?
This would be a bit unexpected, Oliva was never clinging on to Mia or anyone, she always seemed a very calm and independent piggy to us, but at the same time she came to our house together with Mia, when Mia was only 5 weeks old. I don't know if maybe Olivia had a strong attachment than we thought, since she almost raised Mia, and now she's struggling?

Piggies&buns has given you the facts you need, I think. But I just want to reiterate based on my experience. I had a guinea trio of a neutered boar and 2 sows, the sows came together to me as a rescue pair, and one also seemed very independent, even somewhat aloof maybe. Whereas her sow-friend and the boar always seemed very close - more similar maybe, e.g. less active. When the neutered boar died, my hitherto independent sow lost the plot. It was such a change in behaviour due to grieving, her attachment to her boar must have been much stronger than I'd thought. For me it came totally out of the blue. So I'd agree with @Piggies&buns that we can't always detect what's going on.

What a sweet picture of Olivia! I hope she just needs a little time to, well, grieve and that there are no lasting problems.

I'm sorry for your loss.

 

[Davide]

I’m sorry for your loss

Piggies do grieve and some do so very noticeably. Piggies interact in ways we can’t detect so it is likely their bond was deeper than was obvious.
All you can do is keep an eye on her, and in particular her weight to ensure she is eating enough hay, and give her some time

Sending hugs

Looking After a Bereaved Guinea Pig

Thank you for your reply!
It makes sense, it just caught us by surprise that's all.
When our first piggie passed away, her sow companion grieved to the point that we rushed to get her a new companion. But we expected it, as the bond was more visible.

Olivia is doing fine weight wise, and she's alternating being back to her old self and being a bit aphatic. It's good to see her active 50% of the time, but it's stressful when she isn't, because we learned to take apathy as a major red flag.

She'll have constant monitoring this week (she'll hate it ), just in case.

 

[Davide]

Piggies&buns has given you the facts you need, I think. But I just want to reiterate based on my experience. I had a guinea trio of a neutered boar and 2 sows, the sows came together to me as a rescue pair, and one also seemed very independent, even somewhat aloof maybe. Whereas her sow-friend and the boar always seemed very close - more similar maybe, e.g. less active. When the neutered boar died, my hitherto independent sow lost the plot. It was such a change in behaviour due to grieving, her attachment to her boar must have been much stronger than I'd thought. For me it came totally out of the blue. So I'd agree with @Piggies&buns that we can't always detect what's going on.

What a sweet picture of Olivia! I hope she just needs a little time to, well, grieve and that there are no lasting problems.

I'm sorry for your loss.

Thank you so much for sharing, this sounds like a very similar situation! I also thought Olivia lost the plot as soon as Mia was gone.
We'll keep a close eye on her and give her time.
It's a bit more obvious with Olivia, but it feels like all 4 of us (me, my wife and the 2 piggies) are struggling to readjust after the loss.
I know I was so happy about that trio, it will take some time to process the change. They had such a perfect dynamic between them, playful and active while getting along just fine.

 

[Wiebke]

The sudden, totally unexpected death of companion can throw piggies as much as us humans and can be every bit as unsettling and difficult to cope with for them - there was obviously no time to brace and to say their own goodbyes either.
Whatever happened, it must have taken only moments or a few minutes, like a heart attack or a strong stroke.

As long as Olivia is eating and drinking, and holding her weight, she will come round again; especially as she still has a sister to look after.

Please try to give her that time. Assure her of your love without hovering - respect her own grieving - and please try to not project your own grief and shock onto a grieving piggy; especially one that is experiencing the same shock. It would be an extra burden for them. Normally, they do not like being cuddled at the withdrawn acute stage of their grieving but that can vary and some can prefer human solace; the majority doesn't.

What you can do is to please only poo patrol but not change the cage for up to a week and to allow Olivia's scent to slowly fade away. If one of the girls is stuck to a cosy or nook of Mia's, then please let them even if it is getting a bit wiffy and gross. You will know when your remaining girls are coming out of mourning and are picking up their lives again - that is the time to clean and do up the cage again.|

The acute stage of cavy grieving usually only takes a few days before the species survival drive is kicking in. Olivia and her sister will mourn a lot longer of course but since it is not the leader that has gone, the new group re-establishment will be much milder and more in the way of a formality.

Whether you are demonstrative or not in any species doesn't say anything about the depth of feeling or a connection...


Please give yourselves time to grieve as well. A sudden death is always more difficult to deal with because you have the huge shock as well as the pain of the loss whereas with a decline or terminal diagnosis the shock at the onset of the grieving process comes before the actual loss and the pain connected with that.
A sudden death is generally a traumatic experience, as much as a slow death that is not going smoothly but at the very tip of the other end of the spectrum. Only this time you can be reassured that Olivia can't have suffered much at all but it takes days for the adrenaline spike to settle down and then leave you feeling hung over, drained and very blue.
Overall you are not grieving any less; just this time, you have got it all landing on your plate at once.

If you think that it would help you, have a little candle in a safe bowl and whenever one of you is feeling really down, light it so the other knows and you can comfort each other through the coming weeks.

 

[Davide]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

After observing Olivia very closely yesterday and today we determined that

1) we can definitely hear growling noises from her tummy, same type of noise a human would do when hungry. She did it quite a bit yesterday evening, today only twice the entire day but still
2) she drops pea flakes from her mouth when we give her one. She's absolutely never done this, and she's absolutely nuts over pea flakes. I saw her doing the same with pellets too yesterday. The weight is fine, very constant in the last few weeks, but these 2 things are worrying, and I'm starting to think this might not grieving after all.

I am thinking of bringing her to our vet tomorrow for an emergency appointment to check her teeth. We normally see the exotic vet at Manor Vets in Edgbaston, Birmingham. I read that with dental issues you need someone really good. Is there anything specific I should ask when we go?

Thank you in advance

 

[Davide]

Sorry I wrote the previous message in a rush, just wanted to add that she seems to eat hay just fine, and she's quite eager when she does. Dropping the food from the mouth only seems to happen with pellets and pea flakes.
She's currently off veggies in case the gurgling noises are gas, I'd like to keep her on just hay for at least a day.

Don't know if I'm overreacting but the shock of losing Mia is still very fresh and it's very possible it's messing up my judgement a bit.

 

[Piggies&buns]

You should be able to hear noises from her tummy - that is how you know it is working properly.
It’s when the tummy is silent that you need urgent vet care as it means the system has stopped working.
I would continue to feed her veg as normal if there are no issues with poops (ie they aren’t soft) and also if her tummy feels nice and soft

 

[Davide]

You should be able to hear noises from her tummy - that is how you know it is working properly.
It’s when the tummy is silent that you need urgent vet care as it means the system has stopped working.
I would continue to feed her veg as normal if there are no issues with poops (ie they aren’t soft) and also if her tummy feels nice and soft

Thank you! Oh no I'm aware of that, no noise would be more concerning! But these gurgling noises are very loud, I could hear them easily from the other end of the room. I thought it was alarming but I'm relieved if it isn't

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you! Oh no I'm aware of that, no noise would be more concerning! But these gurgling noises are very loud, I could hear them easily from the other end of the room. I thought it was alarming but I'm relieved if it isn't

Please keep an eye on her - very loud gurgling (the tummy going into overdrive) can happen at the start of GI stasis or bloating; especially if it is connected with loss of appetite/weight and apathy. See a vet as an emergency if it is more than just pea flakes she is not showing any interest in. A major upset can unfortunately trigger bloating and/or stasis.

I would not worry about the teeth. It's her tummy that sounds like the issue. Please see a vet promptly if things take a turn for the worse.

 

[Davide]

Hi Wiebke,
Thank you so much for your reply.
We'll keep both eyes on Olivia that's for sure. She's a one in a million kind of piggy.

This evening she looks better than yesterday evening. Very eagerly eating hay and veggies (In the end I decided to give them some). Also she's definitely more active, but not up to her normal self yet.
Good to know we can, for now, not be too concerned with her mouth.

Mia had loud gurgling noises for a long time. Our vet at the time discounted them as insignificant but I was always concerned by them.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi Wiebke,
Thank you so much for your reply.
We'll keep both eyes on Olivia that's for sure. She's a one in a million kind of piggy.

This evening she looks better than yesterday evening. Very eagerly eating hay and veggies (In the end I decided to give them some). Also she's definitely more active, but not up to her normal self yet.
Good to know we can, for now, not be too concerned with her mouth.

Mia had loud gurgling noises for a long time. Our vet at the time discounted them as insignificant but I was always concerned by them.

Olivia eating hay is very good. You may see whether her tummy is settling down with a day or two off veg and some poo soup from her sister.

 

[Davide]

Olivia eating hay is very good. You may see whether her tummy is settling down with a day or two off veg and some poo soup from her sister.

She just went to the bowl to eat some pellets now, another small win for the evening! Also she's still wondering around and not gone to sleep yet, which is good.
Fingers crossed she'll keep improving tomorrow, I'll keep you posted. Thanks everyone

 

[Wiebke]

She just went to the bowl to eat some pellets now, another small win for the evening! Also she's still wondering around and not gone to sleep yet, which is good.
Fingers crossed she'll keep improving tomorrow, I'll keep you posted. Thanks everyone

My fingers are crossed!