Is This Negligence?

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Furuba12

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Hello!

I have a very wonderful guinea pig called Stig who unfortunately has had some teeth problems (I will be doing a different post of his story!). However I feel the vets we were using were very negligent and I am just wondering if I am doing the right thing. Before getting started my aim is not to get compensation but just to simply acknowledge they mismanaged my piggy and the pain they put him through.

In November Stig stopped eating, from looking at him there was nothing visibly wrong. We took him to the vet and it was agreed for him to go under to have an x-ray and a better look at his mouth. They found that he had clumps of hair in his mouth which had caused an ulcer and that all of his roots were elongated, other than that his mouth was fine and we were sent on out merry way with Metacam, anti biotics and instructions to feed him on wet food until he could manage dry food himself. He did start eating some salad but not much.

He then went again in December for another check up and we were told he was fine and we would only need to come in every couple of weeks to check his weight with a nurse and every three months regarding his Metacam as the idea was if we could manage the pain of his roots he would start eating.

The most distressing thing was he really wanted to eat, when I showed him salad he just could not and would just hide, however he loved the wet food and was very very happy and even escaped his cage for it! So no worry of anorexia although he had lost a lot of weight (from 1.8kg to 800g) but he was maintaining that low weight.

I then became concerned in February when I noticed he was slobbering a lot, always felt damp and his mouth seemed to close strange which indicated to me an overgrowth. I took him again early February where it was obvious his front teeth had grown and were almost touching and it was agreed out vet would file them, which she did. Once done she said his jaw still was not closing and she guessed his back teeth were bad but she did want to any further work as she felt it might be better letting him to go to piggy heaven when he was ready.

As you can guess I was FURIOUS. Stig was so happy, active and really wanted to eat...why would I prevent this? So I seeked out The Cat and Rabbit Surgery in Northampton and decided to risk the 2 hour journey to see what he had to say and boy did we get a new insight.

He showed us Stig's mouth and it was horrendous. His bottom teeth were growing flat and almost met in the middle, they were so long and tusk like he could not even move his tongue and Simon said it was the worst he has ever seen. I felt awful like it was 100% my fault. It was agreed Stig should have some gas and get them burred. When we brought him he actually started eating salad and hay again!

Two weeks later we took him back and his teeth were looking fine and he needed a bit more burring to finish off the last job, he also still had some ulcers from how bad his teeth were. He can now eat dry food and has also put on 100g.

Simon informed me that they should have picked this up months ago and that the roots would not have caused him a huge amount of pain but his teeth and the ulcers.

I rang my vets and they deny any fault. She informed me they were burred in November but I was not told this nor were we told it was ever a tooth problem and he only needed a check up for his Metacam.
We were never recommended to stop treatment and seek a specialist like Simon.
She did not even check his back teeth on his last visit.

Would you consider this negligence? If they had informed us how bad his teeth were we would have taken action sooner but we were told it was root problem. I did not pick on the fact they had not overgrown because usually the front are quicker growing and I only noticed when he started slobbering...

All opinions welcome!
 
Oh honey - please don't feel guilty - you did everything you were advised to do and then sought further advice when you didn't agree with what the vet was saying. You acted perfectly and no-one can fault you for it. It is obvious how much you love Stig and are prepared to fight for him.

I'm afraid that I don't have a huge of amount of experience with vets - particularly not with complicated problems so I wont comment but will wait for someone with more experience to respond.

Wishing Stig a rapid recovery and weight gain x
 
Its amazing how acts now, from deaths door to little Stig pig again! He has been through way too much
 
Hi Furuba,

Our cookie was neutered in January, and never ate since. first he had a uti, antibiotics and metacam. Then went back as he was still not eating, even sought out a different vet. No one noticed his teeth. Eventually vet suggested PTS! following a suggestion on the forum, we drove cookie all the way to TEAS where has has been for what seems like ages now. If it hadn't been for Debbie and Simon no one would have noticed his overgrown teeth and mouth ulcers! He would be across the bridge now. I completely understand your feelings around this. You feel so helpless and think you're getting specialist medical advice for your guinea pig and all you get is rubbish. And you waste a lot of money for it..
 
Unfortunately this sort of thing is typically inexperience :( The best thing you can do is report back to the first vets with his diagnosis and treatments, as well as how the signs and symptoms show in guinea pigs. At best they can put this information to good use and learn from the experience. Small animal vets get little training in the way of guinea pigs and typically mght apply cat, dog or rabhit deductive processes to find a problem - but guinea pigs are just so physiologically different from them.
 
OK so what I understand from this is you probably want the vets to acknowledge that they were skilled enough to deal with your piggy and should have advised you to seek help with a savvy vet? And an apology I assume. The reason for pinpointing what you want (because you have only stated what you don't want) is for your own health and sanity. Yes this is an awful situation and thank god for you seeking out Simon for help but clinging on to anger and fighting with the vet practice responsible is not going to change anything that has happened (although yes it can prevent it again). I would probably put a complaint in writing to them which includes a list of things you want as a resolution, maybe you could just the vet locator on here to advise them of more local cavy savvy vets in case they come across something beyond their expertise (my vets are happy to refer to Chine House in Sileby for more complex operations etc and although this isn't as far as Simon it's still quite a drive from Derby).

As long as you understand you did everything you could. You are not at fault and you sought veterinary care immediately and continued seeking care. That is all you can do and in a similar vain as us humans going to the doctors we have to put our trust in the people who have been trained that they have our best interests at heart.

I am so glad to hear a happy outcome for Stig pig though, he's been through a lot but its amazing how well a determined little piggy can fight back
 
Unfortunately some vets are not experienced with guinea pigs, but try to treat them anyhow rather than refer them on to more experienced vets. This sounds like a case of a vet without a lot of knowledge about guinea pigs saying, "Sure, I treat guinea pigs!" and then very quickly getting in over their heads and not admitting it and referring on.

I had a similar situation when the guinea pig didn't make it... she had a large abscess on her jawline. I was new to the area and had no vet, so I went to a vet who my cousin loved for her dog and who said he treated guinea pigs and exotics as well. I was a new owner and this was my first health issue, I was oblivious and believed him when he said he knew how to treat her teeth and abscess. End result... he didn't really know what he was doing, it cost me a fortune, I was not told how to do any aftercare and she was on totally inadequate medication, and even though we syringe-fed her for two weeks and did everything we could do for her, she passed from sepsis and malnutrition (she was on inadequate antibiotics to counter the infection and would never even try to eat again after the initial drainage op and dental- I think he further injured her jaw or mouth in the initial surgery.) I still get so angry and sick to my stomach thinking about it, because had I known better and had the vet known better, she might have survived. She could have lived a full life instead of dying before two years. She never had a chance with that vet and I was too naive to know. The end result was that I did a LOT more research, got a much better vet (though I have to drive half an hour to get to him), and two years after Frenzy died, we nursed another pig, Sundae, through the exact same abscess issue, and she made a full recovery because the vet knew his stuff and helped me to know how to care for the injury so I could do my part as well. The vet can make all the difference in the world, and I'm glad that you were able to find a vet for Stig to address his issues while they were still manageable. It's great that he has had a happy outcome!

Obviously a lot of vets don't want to admit they were wrong or made a mistake, and you may never get that from the initial vet. Is there any kind of online service, like Yelp, where you can rate a vet and leave some feedback for others? I ended up doing that for the vet that treated Frenzy before she died... I wasn't mean, but I said that although I know people who love this vet for their dogs/cats, I found that even though they say they treat small animals/rodents I found they did not have very much experienced and were using outdated meds and outdated techniques and I recommended another clinic instead. I figured it may help someone else who is in the same situation I was in to have a better outcome with their guinea pig or other rodent in the future. I also left an AWESOME recommendation for my current vet, who really is amazing and who I honestly believe Sundae owes her life to, because I want the good vet to get the pigs in the future!
 
Just to add, I think it's possible even for knowledgeable vets to make mistakes with teeth. I can remember when Sundae first began to develop trouble chewing and making the 'sore mouth' face while eating which I remembered from Frenzy, I drove her to my (good) vet and insisted there was something wrong with her molars. He looked really hard with the scope, rinsed her mouth out, looked again, and said he didn't see anything wrong back there, but if I really wanted to he would put her under and take a look again that way (conscious dentals are really not a thing in Canada where I live.) He said he didn't want to waste my money, but if I really insisted, he would check. I said I wanted it checked, and he ended up calling me personally afterwards and saying that I was right, she had a spur in a difficult-to-see place and an ulcer on her tongue because of it, and I obviously knew my pig and he was glad I pushed the issue and we found a problem that was initially visible when she was awake and her her tongue in the way!
 
@Furuba12 Sadly, as owner of TEAS, I hear about cases like this on a weekly basis. It breaks my heart that so many piggies are suffering despite their owners going out of their way to try and get the correct treatment for them. Things need to change. Simon and I were talking about this only yesterday. He would be more than happy to let other vets go and see what he does, but they just aren't interested. We desperately need more vets to get involved. I offer temporary places, here at TEAS, to enable piggies to get treatment from Simon, but I can only take so many. Anyone who has looked after a piggy who is needing syringe feeding will know how exhausting it can be, and I frequently have up to four I need to fully syringe feed. I know how many I can manage, and can't risk compromising the care I give, by taking extras. That's so hard as often getting seen by Simon is their only hope.

So many vets seem totally blind to what is so obvious, in many cases. Little Toffee, pictured below, arrived at TEAS this time last year. He had had a dental only the week before, and had failed to start eating. His owners took him back and were told he would eat when he was ready, and they would recheck him in a year. Yes, that isn't a typo, they said re-check in year! You don't need any veterinary qualification to see that Toffee would never eat without appropriate treatment. His jaw was so far out of alignment that his bottom incisors were in line with his eye! This was caused by such severe overgrowth of the back teeth which was forcing his jaw out of position. Although in most cases, Simon can do conscious dentals, Toffee needing a GA to get his teeth burred down, with subsequent conscious dentals. Toffee returned home once he was stable, but has continued to need two weekly dentals, and is likely to for the rest of his life. His owners make the long journey to Northampton, from Kent, every fortnight. This enables Toffee to lead a completely normal life, eating well, and he is a big, solid and very strong piggy. Sadly he will never completely cure, due to the inappropriate treatment in the early days, before he went to Simon.

If you had asked me, as recently as a couple of years ago, if dental issues could be cured I would've said no. I believed they could be managed very effectively, but not completely cured. However now we seem to be getting a 50% cure, with 25% needing a quick tidy up of teeth every three months or so, and the final 25% needing more regular treatment but still leading a very good life, eating totally independently but needing more frequent filing of teeth.

Toffee - before dental.webp
 
What I want is acknowledgement that they overlooked matters and there are different ways to handle this. At our last appointment with her she said it was the beginning of the end and there was no point doing anything else, if I had took her advice Stig would be dead. Instead, after four months of me and my partner and parents syringe feeding him mushy nuggets and him being in unnecessary pain he is now being weaned off and eating his own food.

I also just want to make other piggy owners aware of the situation Stig went through and not to give up, Stig had a lot of determination and I am glad I never took his life away from him.

When we visited Simon we absolutely amazed at how simply the mechanism he uses is! Just simply a spring to keep their cheeks and mouth open and how quick and easy it is to do conscious filing! My past vet argued that that was simply not possible and I told her many times it is and I am still going to make that point. Living in Derby Simon and you are actually the closest person who does this work which is shocking!

The fact is Stig (and Toffee above) have been severely mismanaged and to be honest had a problem that could have been easily solved! I am extremely lucky after four months Stig has started eating nugs again by himself.

Thank you for all your comments :-) I feel reassured it was not necessarily my fault. It just angers me how some vets do not seem to know how to manage guinea pigs. It is not like they are uncommon pets anymore!
 
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I took in a piggy a few years ago with a dreadful, all over, skin condition. She was fitting and looked like she was hours from death. She was so thin she was a bag of bones. The owner had been taking her to her local vet for five weeks, spending over £400 on treatment, with no success whatsoever. She had severe mites and ringworm which Simon treated with Panomec injections and Itranfungal. She was fully recovered within three weeks at a cost of just over £80. The owner went back to her vet and asked for her money back. They contacted Cat and Rabbit Clinic and asked for the history and then gave her half her money back as a 'goodwill gesture'. I like to feel that they learnt from this, by seeing the treatment that Simon gave.
 
It was NOT your fault in any way whatsoever. You are an amazing owner, but sadly the veterinary profession was letting you down. Simon is always quick to say it isn't rocket science, so why oh why won't more vets give it a go. It isn't stressful for the animal and the results can be amazing! xx
 
If I was you @Furuba12 I would definitely go back to your original vets to complain. Surgeries have responsibilities to provide correct advice and treatment and they have clearly failed in Stig's case. Unless you go back that surgery will just carry on and never learn "by their mistakes".
I am so pleased Stig has now received the correct care now.
 
@furryfriends Excellent Adventure Sanctuary That is horrendous! I think another problem is vets seek guinea pigs as just another rodent and therefore compare them to rabbits when in fact they are worlds apart, especially in dental.

@worried val of york I just want them to know what happened and to make sure other piggies (and piggy owners!) do not go through what we did.
 
I'm so sorry you were so badly let down by your first vet, its almost like betrayal when you are going to someone who you are supposed to trust to know what they are doing and have a professional opinion. Thank goodness you were able to get Stig to Simon and on the mend!

@Pebble is pretty good at wording official and complaint type things in a strong and clear way so if you do go forward with complaining to your original vet she may be able to offer some advice.
 
@Tbag Thank you :-) I am just glad I decided to bite the bullet and visit him!

I did phone but I did not feel I got my word across so I am going to email them I think just to make them aware they did mismanage and there are ways to solve these issues. I work in a solicitors firm so luckily I have that support!
 
I am glad you do know what you want to achieve and to be honest it's fully reasonable. Personally I would be after some of the costs back from unnecessary and inappropriate treatments from them but that is up to you.

I recommended a written complaint as this is my preferred method for several reasons:
1 - you can keep a copy of what the complaint contains
2 - you can rewrite and rewrite it until you are happy with it.
3 - you can make sure everything is covered and crystal clear
4 - you can make sure it comes across as factual. Confrontational or emotional approaches seem to automatically put others on a defensive attitude and therefore less likely to resolve.

You might not need to write a letter but I would at least write pointers down so you make sure you cover everything with them.
 
@Lady Kelly The letter I am planning to write is not going to be a personal attack on the clinic itself, Stig had some eye problems and they managed that perfectly. I like your idea. I just want to make it clear what my concerns are. Thanks for the help. I am feeling a lot more calmer and less angry now!
 
@Lady Kelly The letter I am planning to write is not going to be a personal attack on the clinic itself, Stig had some eye problems and they managed that perfectly. I like your idea. I just want to make it clear what my concerns are. Thanks for the help. I am feeling a lot more calmer and less angry now!

That's fine, I wasn't implying that you would attack them. It's more that you've been through a very emotional experience and sometimes it can be hard to separate those feelings for the sake of making a point. I've written tons of complaints (mostly to financial institutions) and I know how much easier it is to write a complaint for someone else because there isn't the emotional involvement.

I do believe you are doing the right thing, whether they listen is another matter but to be honest they can't listen if people like us don't give them the chance. I really hope they pay heed to your comments and start considering their actions when it's outside their expertise.

I had a quick look at the vet locator yesterday and noticed there's a recommended vet at Alfreton, obviously doesn't mean they are good for dentals but might be somewhere the vets could refer to when they aren't sure.
 
I understand. To be honest, I am probably going to write this one letter and that it is. I have already logged a call so it is up to them whether to they take note or not but at least I have expressed my concerns.

I have looked and there is also one in Ilkeston that seems to deal with exotics but sadly neither do conscious dental work. I do not mind having to travel to Simon, at the moment we are going every two weeks and hopefully soon we can start going less and less but in my eyes for Stig it is 100% worth and he does not seem to mind the car ride either.
 
I understand. To be honest, I am probably going to write this one letter and that it is. I have already logged a call so it is up to them whether to they take note or not but at least I have expressed my concerns.

I have looked and there is also one in Ilkeston that seems to deal with exotics but sadly neither do conscious dental work. I do not mind having to travel to Simon, at the moment we are going every two weeks and hopefully soon we can start going less and less but in my eyes for Stig it is 100% worth and he does not seem to mind the car ride either.
You're always very welcome to pop round for a cuppa when you're visiting Simon. You can come and meet all our special piggies xx
 
You're always very welcome to pop round for a cuppa when you're visiting Simon. You can come and meet all our special piggies xx

Oh gosh don't tempt me, I may never leave!

I have an update, my old vets rang today and I spoke to the head vet to listen to my concerns. I feel they are not listening and trying to press the good points but my argument is he was checked in November and December and they never raised a dental issue. Come February his teeth are like tusks and his tongue cannot move, that cannot happen so quickly. They are going to try to speak to Simon and get his opinion. I did try and tell them the simple procedure Stig had done but they said they were specialist enough...obviously not!
 
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