Is this normal or is it time to separate?

Owen&George

Junior Guinea Pig
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Location
Nashville, TN USA
Hi everyone!
So as some of you know, a little over a month ago our youngest piggy George, passed away unexpectedly.
This past weekend we traveled to our nearest rescue to find our other boy, Owen (one year old), a new cage mate. We did a few unsuccessful dates at the rescue until we came to a 6 month old boy named Edward. There was some introductory dominance behaviors, mostly humping, but no worrying actions. They did this for about 10 minutes until they calmed down and laid next to each other happily. We adopted Edward and they were 100% peaceful on the way home. Once we got home we put them in a neutral large playpen away from the cage to let them get to know each other better. It was at this point things took a turn. They began exhibiting a little bit more dominance behaviors, still humping back and forth, but they were starting to have face offs; going in circles and rumble strutting until one would nose punch the other, they would seem to be about to fight and we would intervene. Eventually we decided to clean the whole cage (a 3x4 c&c with a 1x4 loft) to take out smells, and put them into it. They calmed down quite a bit over the past three days and there has been no evident fights. We've only noticed some barbering and Edward has a very small scratch on his nose, which we read can happen and isn't too much of a worry. After 3 days of being together they still have face offs and exhibit dominance behaviors through-out the day. Most confusingly though, there is no pattern to their aggression; sometimes they are fine and can lay next to each other and sometimes can't be near each other. They both eat and drink and no big fights, but there is almost constantly rumbling and circling unless they are not near each other or eating. Also Owen was always in his hidey house before the adoption, but now Edward has taken residence in his main house and Owen will not go inside. All day and night he sleeps and lays outside. We also never used to see him lay completely down, and now he is constantly fully laying down. Could his new cage mate have taken dominance and made him depressed? and do they just need more time or should we call this one quits? Even when they are getting along they make a constant high pitched fast squeaking noise, it sounds more like the annoyed noise than the more bubbly "talking" noise but we're not sure because they'll be getting along and make the noise too.
Attached is a picture of Owen laying down, and them next to each other (during which they are making the presumed annoyed noise)
(BTW We have more than one hidey, and two of everything, there is also always grates on the top and front just removed for pictures)
20190429_172828.webp20190429_182932.webp
 
@Owen&George What would your options be if you chose to separate? Have you the space to have two cages and find them new friends? Would you return Edward to the rescue and try a new friend?

Theu're very sociable animals and they're young so a life living alone needs to be avoided if possible.
 
It sounds like the bonding has failed, like it does in about 50% of cases. Rescue boar dating takes on average 1-3 candidates to find a new Mr Right; often more if one or both of the boys are teenagers.

Please contact the rescue and talk with them. It is neither party's fault as piggies are every bit as complex to find the right friend for as humans are with flat sharing. ;)

Your other option is next door companionship with ideally full body sight and nose touching through the bars to allow for the full range of social interaction and stimulation, just with each having their own territory.

Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
Bonds In Trouble
 
They've actually been making some progress over time and have been getting better, I think we are going to keep trying.
One question I still have though is what you guys think this noise means?
I'm thinking based off when they do it at other times it's like a social or exploratory noise?
 
To me that is the sound they make when they are displeased but I'd like to hear what others think so I'm not steering you in the wrong direction 😅
 
To me that is the sound they make when they are displeased but I'd like to hear what others think so I'm not steering you in the wrong direction 😅
So I thought that too but when they are making that noise and we are having floor time, if we move them apart they try very hard to get back together while still making that noise.
 
They've actually been making some progress over time and have been getting better, I think we are going to keep trying.
One question I still have though is what you guys think this noise means?
I'm thinking based off when they do it at other times it's like a social or exploratory noise?
That's a happy communicating noise. They are chatting to each other.
 
My boys makes this noise, I’ve always thought of it of friendly chatter too?
 
Hm, maybe I have misinterpreted that all along then! When I had my foster pigs for a month and had cuddle time with them they would make this noise and I thought they were displeased with me! They only really made this sound when I was holding them.
 
Hi everyone!
So as some of you know, a little over a month ago our youngest piggy George, passed away unexpectedly.
This past weekend we traveled to our nearest rescue to find our other boy, Owen (one year old), a new cage mate. We did a few unsuccessful dates at the rescue until we came to a 6 month old boy named Edward. There was some introductory dominance behaviors, mostly humping, but no worrying actions. They did this for about 10 minutes until they calmed down and laid next to each other happily. We adopted Edward and they were 100% peaceful on the way home. Once we got home we put them in a neutral large playpen away from the cage to let them get to know each other better. It was at this point things took a turn. They began exhibiting a little bit more dominance behaviors, still humping back and forth, but they were starting to have face offs; going in circles and rumble strutting until one would nose punch the other, they would seem to be about to fight and we would intervene. Eventually we decided to clean the whole cage (a 3x4 c&c with a 1x4 loft) to take out smells, and put them into it. They calmed down quite a bit over the past three days and there has been no evident fights. We've only noticed some barbering and Edward has a very small scratch on his nose, which we read can happen and isn't too much of a worry. After 3 days of being together they still have face offs and exhibit dominance behaviors through-out the day. Most confusingly though, there is no pattern to their aggression; sometimes they are fine and can lay next to each other and sometimes can't be near each other. They both eat and drink and no big fights, but there is almost constantly rumbling and circling unless they are not near each other or eating. Also Owen was always in his hidey house before the adoption, but now Edward has taken residence in his main house and Owen will not go inside. All day and night he sleeps and lays outside. We also never used to see him lay completely down, and now he is constantly fully laying down. Could his new cage mate have taken dominance and made him depressed? and do they just need more time or should we call this one quits? Even when they are getting along they make a constant high pitched fast squeaking noise, it sounds more like the annoyed noise than the more bubbly "talking" noise but we're not sure because they'll be getting along and make the noise too.
Attached is a picture of Owen laying down, and them next to each other (during which they are making the presumed annoyed noise)
(BTW We have more than one hidey, and two of everything, there is also always grates on the top and front just removed for pictures)
View attachment 112072View attachment 112073
Which bit of lying down happily together is not saying "bonded" to you btw?
 
Which bit of lying down happily together is not saying "bonded" to you btw?
When they are with us on our laps they are fine, but when they are in their cage they'll sit together fine sometimes and other times they don't want anything to do with each other and will rumble and chatter their teeth at each other.
 
When they are with us on our laps they are fine, but when they are in their cage they'll sit together fine sometimes and other times they don't want anything to do with each other and will rumble and chatter their teeth at each other.
I'm sorry. What I meant was that the picture of them cuddling up seems to scream out "we love each other". Unless I'm seeing it wrong.

Have you read the bonding guides? I quote:
"Acceptance has not happened:

- if one or both guinea pigs persistently refuse to interact (give it more time and try again another day, ideally with more preparatory contact through bars or living next to each other). However, if a piggy resists any contact with another piggy repeatedly and persistently, please leave be."

Yours on the other hand seem to have accepted each other and to be working out their dominance rather than ignoring each other or full-on fighting. If you look through the parts about working out dominance and see if that fits, you'll know if it's just that or if it's more serious. But I don't think they would snuggle up if they hated each other!
 
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