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just don't know what to do for the best

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tattyruncy said:
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BEAUTIFUL. She's like my Lotta.

Hope she keeps picking up for you and getting better and better.

x
 
Great news that she has gained some weight - and that she's a bit more comfortable with her legs too. And she looks lovely in her lovely new pigloo. It's making me want to go all pink for my girlie cage too!
 
I had a wonderful chat with Vedra and got a few answers for some of the questions we had. I have posted this in the "greenest hay" thread as well as here, it applies to questions asked in both!

1. Why does a pig develop intestinal parasites despite being wormed with both Panacur and Ivomec?
Worming only deals with the parasites in the system at that particular time. If the pig eats hay that is contaminated, the parasites will enter the system once again, and remain until the pig is wormed again.

2. Bathing a guinea pig with mites causes them to burrow deeper into the skin.
Vedra has not heard of this happening and doesn't believe it to be true. Some mites and parasites can be washed off with the use of an anti-parasitic shampoo, provided that the pig is given three baths spaced no more than one week apart.

The examination of the hay under the microscope is to check for all manner of parasites, as well as fungal spores. Hay grown in the UK is often damp at some point due to our climate; at that stage it's an invitation for parasites to live off the hay and for fungal spores to develop.

The parasite dubbed the "silent killer" gives no outward symptoms while it is burrowing, until it causes severe weight loss; it slowly damages the animal by burrowing deeper and deeper into the pig, eventually reaching the organs leading to organ damage and eventual failure. The presence of this parasite is not noticed until a significant amount of weight has been lost and the parasite has done a certain degree of damage. Routine worming and feeding a sterilised hay (readigrass or oxbow) helps prevent this parasite from invading the pig. As explained above, the pig can still be affected by the parasite despite being wormed hence the importance of feeding a hay that does not host the parasites - if you continue feeding hay contaminated by them, the pig can still be affected.

I think that covers much of what was asked and answered. Vedra was truly wonderful to talk to, we even got chatting about my agoraphobia and my record folders...made me even more determined to beat my demons and spend some time at the CCT, where I want to be!
 
Got this reply from my vet this morning.......

23rd November 2009


Dear Mrs

Thank you for your letter of 13th November and your subsequent email.I apologise for the delay in replying, but there are some important issues here which have taken time to investigate.

I do understand that your concerns are generated by a genuine regard for your pets’ welfare, but there are several points you have raised which I do not agree with.

My understanding is that the Cambridge Cavy Trust and their ‘Rodentologists’ are not qualified Veterinary Surgeons. It is not clear from your letter how they have reached a diagnosis of ‘systemic fungal infection’ as presented to Julia on a piece of paper. Do they fully understand what ‘systemic’ means? If so, then to suggest using ‘Nystan’, which is quoted as being ‘safe because it is not absorbed by Guinea Pigs systemically when given by mouth’, is clearly inappropriate. This diagnosis is also of concern because Julia has been in contact with the specialist vets at Bristol University Exotic Department who have confirmed that systemic fungal infections generally only occur in mammals in very humid climates, not in the United Kingdom. There is also no evidence of the involvement of fungal infection in ‘bumblefoot’.

Julia informs me that ringworm (superficial fungal infection of the skin) was suggested as a possible diagnosis worth covering pending further discussion with Bristol, which could be treated safely topically in this period. This was not a proven diagnosis, which can only be fully confirmed by fungal culture which takes time. A small proportion will show under UV light, which I understand was suspicious but not conclusive. This would not be sufficient evidence to start oral medication.

It is also not clear what is meant by ‘systemic infestation of one particular type of parasite’. I would need a name for this parasite to be provided to fully understand the implications. The nearest I can think of is Sarcoptes mites, which do burrow under the skin. This then raises the question about why treatment with ‘Itrafungol’ was started. ‘Itrafungol’ is a systemic antifungal agent licensed to treat ringworm in cats. It has been used in Guinea Pigs ‘off licence’ for ringworm if topical treatment is not proving effective. It would only be recommended after a positive diagnosis by fungal culture. It would certainly have no effect against ‘burrowing parasites’ as described. ‘Itrafungol’ is a POM-V medicine which can by law only be prescribed by a veterinary surgeon. As you are aware, this would need to be prescribed under the ‘cascade’ system. It is of concern if this medicine was supplied to you by the Cavy Trust. Even if this was supplied by a veterinary surgeon working for them, it should not have been supplied without contacting our practice first under the guidelines for referral and case succession. I think the Royal College of

Veterinary Surgeons may wish to pursue this further and it may prove helpful that you have sent a copy of your letter to them. There are very strict regulations concerning the supply of POM-V medicines.

Concerning your other points, I disagree with the statement that we administer anaesthetics purely for our convenience. I would question the welfare aspects of wrapping a prey species for immobilisation. There are also important Health and Safety Regulations concerning the welfare of our personnel to be considered.

Ultimately, I suspect Poppy has not had a confirmed diagnosis of any definite problem to date. Julia was trying in good faith to contact recognised specialists while offering some safe, supportive treatment in the meantime. Further testing, especially microscopy of scrapings and fungal culture, would be required to confirm any definite skin problem. I would not begin to suggest that we know everything about any species, and as a practice we would always seek specialist advice when needed.

I think it may probably be in the best interests of your Guinea Pigs to arrange for another practice to take over their care. The level of breakdown of trust which you portray is probably beyond reconciliation. From my side, I would not expect our assistants to prescribe medications on the basis of a non qualifed person’s advice, which is what you appear to be asking for. This goes against all Medicine Regulations.

I hope this has clarified our position on these matters. Please let us know if you decide to change practices so we can forward your records to aid continuation of your pets’ care. I would be happy to meet with you to discuss these matters if you feel it would help.


Yours sincerely
 
Blimey, that's a letter and a half!

Don't feel bad, you were just trying to do what is best for your pig.

I would trust CCT over my vets any day, but I see their point that things are POM for a reason.

Unfortunately I still believe many guineas die needlessly because they get the wrong treatment from vets whose main area of work is cats and dogs.

Sending hugs

Sophie
x
 
What a patronising reply from the vet! I understand the points he's raised, doesn't mean he's right about some of them though. I'm sorry you've had such a demeaning reply.

I heard from a particular person that Vedra has been taken to court before - if that is true (bearing in mind one person against the CCT's services said this), why is Vedra allowed to continue with her work? She would have had some legal implications if she was breaking the law, yet facing the law. She is a registered charity - if what she's doing is illegal she would not be allowed to be recognised as a charity!

As far as I know, a person other than a vet is allowed to treat an animal under veterinary supervision. While rodentologists will give out some types of POMs, I do know that Vedra will not prescribe some meds without one of the vets she 'works with' seeing the pig; example being my past girl Lottie - the vet wanted to oversee Lottie's treatment for hyperthyroid and check on her progress, but trusted Vedra to arrange the actual treatment, doses etc.

I think the vet who wrote to you does not recognise this and, as per usual for a great deal of vets, refuses to consider that anyone without letters after their name might just know something more than they!

Big hugs. xx
 
I'm still furious with the letter, I suppose I just will have to let it go.
At the moment all that really matters is Poppy is getting better and I know who to thank for that :) - she had another weight gain on Sunday :)
Just wish people weren't so bound by red tape and so b:xy pompous :x
 
It is interesting to noe his commentds about GA.
First he mentions "prey animal", just what are the welfare considerations involved?
The next sentence refers to health and safety of their staff. the implication being that a GA is given for the benefit of the staff and not the animal.

Unfortunately, I think you have to realise that you have very little chance of getting your point of view accepted.

I know that Peter Gurney was threatened with prosecution by the RCVS, they backed off when he said he would show evidence regarding how badly some vets treated guinea pigs.

You can understand an individual vet's reluctance to upset the system as it may cause them to be accused of professional misconduct by their disciplinary body.
 
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I would definately approach other vets and enquire to their experience with guinea pigs and their stance on taking advice from non veterinary qualified persons that have decades of experience in guinea pig welfare, and hope you find one who is open minded enough to not take umbridge when adivce is given from a person who may not have the paper qualifications but has the knowledge of the species in question..

I've probably not made a lot of sense there but I hope you get my gist.

I think the letter sent, although pertinent points made was not what I would expect from my vet and therefore I would not be staying with them. To me they are way to defensive about their ability to diagnose and treat what your piggies problem may be.
 
Thanks for that AP. God bless Peter Guerney :) Fighting for the rights of his pigs.
The letter is so disrespectful to Vedra and her work that they don't even know nothing about :(
I have just registered with another local vet - I have to take my rabbit for his VHD vaccination on Thursday morning so it will be a chance to suss them out a bit {:| No doubt from now on I will be dealing with my rodentologist and Vedra only with my piggies.
I cancelled Teddy's vaccination at my vets and the receptionist told me that I owed £11.30 for Poppy's consultation. I haven't decided whether I am going to pay it or not or write back to my vet, I probably will get myself in a spot of bother if I don't pay up, even more bother if I write back as it may be a tad rude grrrr
It's not :x worth wasting the paper grrrr I really begrudge paying a consultation fee no matter how small it is for being fed a right load of b:xl
 
As I have mentioned before the rodentology course, whilst being an excellent and informative programme, has no official recognition. This, I believe, is a major problem.
Every profession is a closed shop in itself, I use the word profession in it's true meaning.
Too many jobs are classed, incorrectly, as professions.
 
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I do find myself wondering what vets think when they read this forum/thread.
Is it "I never knew that before, it's worth trying" or is it a case of "those people are quoting straight from a text-book or from each other and have no in-depth understanding. How many have actually seen and treated pigs with the conditions that they advise about and how many have real hands on experience?
 
obviously not my vet rolleyes I find it quite sad that they have to consult with Bristol cos they don't :x know nothing :x I'm going to find out what the name of the parasite is when I see Vedra in a couple of weeks and let my vet know. What bugs me is some people are so far up there own :x they can't possibly be wrong so they have to belittle others to make themselves look good grrrr
 
There is no shame, in any subject, to say "I don't know the answer".
 
I've just weighed Poppy :) I have been weighing her two or three times a week rather than just on a Sunday and she has now put on a total of 38g in the last 8 days! that's three weight gains in a row! :) It's steady weight gain but it's on the up :) She was around 1150g six weeks ago which is what I really would be happy to see her at but it's a good start - she really must be feeling better :)
 
" There is also no evidence of the involvement of fungal infection in ‘bumblefoot’"

I have found a reference which states that "....symptoms can be seen as a consequence of a fungal infection...."
 
Keep a record of the medications you have given/will give Poppy, when she started gaining weight and how much, plus anything else you can think of which will demonstrate a progressive improvement of her condition. When she's fully recovered send the details of her progress to your old vet. This indicates that she recovered on the course of action they didn't approve of.
 
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Hi,

First of all I haven't read all of the posts here in detail but there is quite a lot that worries me. This is the first time I've spoken online about this experience as I was so heartbroken and it was entirely my fault for leaving my gps care with someone I didn't know.

I had a very bad experience with a 'rodentologist' some years ago. I was bullied by a forum into taking my sick guinea pig to this man to look after. I won't go into a great deal of detail, but when I went to pick up my piggie I found that he and his mate had been left in their carry case for a week and he had died before I turned up and the man hadn't noticed - I went to get him to find him myself dead. He had far too many animals and many of them were kept in cramped, unsuitable conditions and were deprived of appropriate vetinary care due to his alternative beliefs. My guinea pig had a heart problem - if I'd just kept the little fella at home and looked after him he could have had a good quality of life for as long as he lasted rather than dying in filthy conditions with that awful man.

I would never allow any guinea pigs to be treated by anyone without proper vetinary training and even then not unless the vet had examined the animal concerned themselves. I do not know much about the CCT, but they should be seeing the guinea pig themselves or giving advice to a vet that has. Rodentology is a nice idea to give people a bit more knowledge on their animals but they shouldn't be treating people's pets.

Do not self medicate guinea pigs - if you are unhappy with your vet, and I appreciate that not all of them are gp experts, find a new one that you like and trust. Persistant parasite and other infections such as respiratory are rarely the problem themselves - they tend to be secondary to some other problem which needs diagnosing. As a final note, vets do make mistakes, they are human, medicine is not an exact science and many conditions guinea pigs are prone to just aren't fixable. I have lost 2 animals sooner than I might over the years to this, both of whom were very poorly and needed treatment - but the number of times they have saved one of my animals far outweighs this.

Paula
 
paulag said:
Hi,

First of all I haven't read all of the posts here in detail but there is quite a lot that worries me. This is the first time I've spoken online about this experience as I was so heartbroken and it was entirely my fault for leaving my gps care with someone I didn't know.

I had a very bad experience with a 'rodentologist' some years ago. I was bullied by a forum into taking my sick guinea pig to this man to look after. I won't go into a great deal of detail, but when I went to pick up my piggie I found that he and his mate had been left in their carry case for a week and he had died before I turned up and the man hadn't noticed - I went to get him to find him myself dead. He had far too many animals and many of them were kept in cramped, unsuitable conditions and were deprived of appropriate vetinary care due to his alternative beliefs. My guinea pig had a heart problem - if I'd just kept the little fella at home and looked after him he could have had a good quality of life for as long as he lasted rather than dying in filthy conditions with that awful man.

I would never allow any guinea pigs to be treated by anyone without proper vetinary training and even then not unless the vet had examined the animal concerned themselves. I do not know much about the CCT, but they should be seeing the guinea pig themselves or giving advice to a vet that has. Rodentology is a nice idea to give people a bit more knowledge on their animals but they shouldn't be treating people's pets.

Do not self medicate guinea pigs - if you are unhappy with your vet, and I appreciate that not all of them are gp experts, find a new one that you like and trust. Persistant parasite and other infections such as respiratory are rarely the problem themselves - they tend to be secondary to some other problem which needs diagnosing. As a final note, vets do make mistakes, they are human, medicine is not an exact science and many conditions guinea pigs are prone to just aren't fixable. I have lost 2 animals sooner than I might over the years to this, both of whom were very poorly and needed treatment - but the number of times they have saved one of my animals far outweighs this.

Paula
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First of all, I'm really sorry that you had such an awful time with this rodentologist; to lose your piggy in this way must have been terrible. :( It's good for me to know that not all rodentologists are reputable. Did you report him?

I have heard only good things about the CCT and to be honest, I would trust Vedra over any vet I know of around here; she has decades of experience treating guinea-pigs, which counts for a lot in my book. Unfortunately, many people live too far from Cambridge (myself included) to see Vedra personally. I have recently heard of a vet who isn't too far from me, who is also a trained rodentologist, so this would be my first choice. However, as I currently don't have a car, I would be reliant on a friend to take me, which would be impossible in an emergency.

The trouble I am finding with vets re my rabbits, is that they're okay on the routine stuff (worming, neutering, vaccination - apart from a castration I haven't yet had cause to take any of my guinea-pigs to the vets), but for anything else they don't instil me with confidence; one vet told me that guinea-pigs and rabbits can make suitable companions for each other! If he can come out with something like this, I can't believe that he is knowledgeable about guinea-pigs.
 
I also regularly consult Peter Gurney's website. Again, he was not a trained vet, but he took the time to study his animals and share what he had learnt, I therefore trust his judgement. Whilst I have only needed to treat for fairly minor things, as my guinea-pigs have not ailed much (I 'rescued' a guinea-pig scabby from mites); his treatments have worked.
 
Thanks for those points AP and Furries.
I intend to contact my old vet again once I've seen Vedra in a fortnightish :)
No doubt I might get a bill reminder for the £11.30 that is owing for Poppy's consultation. My sister reckoned I ought to bag up £11.30 worth of pennies and go in and pour it on the counter. I have so much going on with Nolan's redundancy worries and his dad passing away and now a mouse problem tackling my old vet has had to take a bit of a back seat, but I will write to him once all this horrible stuff is out the way :(
 
Thank you for talking about your experiences Paula. The only points I will raise, despite disagreeing with your views - which I can understand, regardless of my own beliefs - is that the "rodentologist" you visited was a single person among hundreds. It is unfair to generalise on a profession based on one, individual rodentologist, especially when you admittedly know little about the CCT.

The behaviour of that rodentologist was appalling, I am very sorry you had such a traumatic experience with that person and it does shock me that someone who had taken the time and effort to train as a rodentologist, would show so little disregard to the animals in their care. However other people have had countless experiences with vets which seriously shatter the trust an owner should have in vets, and you can't always travel to find a better vet, and it is rarely just mistakes - it is blatant bluffing on their part and diagnosing and treating an animal that they just have not sufficient training about. What is an owner to do in that case?

There are excellent vets out there, but it is worth noting that many of these have worked with the CCT or Peter Gurney.
 
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Thank you all for taking the time to read my story. I have no reason to believe that the cct are anything except excellent, it is simply that many people will not be able to get to them.

But it is important not to put across the message that rodentologists are an alternative to a vet. They may be complimentary but I truly believe working with a good vet is essential. If someone with that much training in medicine told someone not to see a doctor they would be prosecuted.

But by all means get a second opinion. It's helps to find one you trust before a gp gets ill. I'm lucky that I've known mine 12 years and we share a view on quality of life in small animals.

On one final note. If you don't pay your vets bill they may register it on your credit history and this could affect your chances of getting a loan in future.

Paula
 
paulag said:
But it is important not to put across the message that rodentologists are an alternative to a vet. They may be complimentary but I truly believe working with a good vet is essential. If someone with that much training in medicine told someone not to see a doctor they would be prosecuted.
Paula
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That depends on whether there is a good vet in your area though.

Also, training to be a vet does not guarantee that you will be good with guinea-pigs. The vet I took my rabbit to (who said rabbits and guinea-pigs can make good companions), IS a good cat and dog vet; but I wouldn't trust him with my guinea-pigs. I just find it frustrating that the RCVS have got it all nicely wrapped-up; nobody but a trained vet can practice veterinary medicine and current law states that I MUST take my pet to a vet when required; which would be fine if they also made it mandatory that all vets were highly knowledgeable about every pet they treated and if they weren't, they were exempt from treating that species. However, this is not the case and therefore it could easily mean the death of my pet because the vet hasn't bothered to learn about guinea-pigs. Which is like saying, it's not okay for my guinea-pig to die due to my ignorance, but it's okay for a medically trained vet to kill it due to his/her ignorance!
 
Very well said Furries, that is the problem precisely.

I do understand exactly what you mean Paula, and I appreciate your views and was once a holder of those beliefs myself. As far as I am aware, one of the biggest challenges the CCT faces is getting rodentology recognised, and persuading the RCVS to provide decent, mandatory training on guinea pigs. I believe the RCVS have threatened rodentologists with prosecution only to back down when presented with evidence of the lack of training they give their vets in regards to the species.

In any case the CCT do consult with RCVS registered vets regularly, so to my knowledge they are working legally - the law states that anyone working under the supervision of veterinary surgeons can legally treat an animal.
 
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Hi Paula, I have read all your comments, I am so sorry about your bad experience :(
I believe that as a responsible pet owner you should always seek vets advice, I also like to seek the rodentologist advice to because she is worth her weight in gold - the problem being the vets I have so far seen don't respect the rodentologists opinion, I suppose legally won't either.
I think I am just upset and "begrudge" is probably the right word to use, begrudge paying for the consultation as the vet mis diagnosed Poppy. Believe me I have had some huge bills this year with Poppy and with two of my rabbits totally hundreds of pounds which I have always paid in full straight away - but somehow I just don't want to pay for the "services" I feel I didn't get - even though it's probably the cheapest vet bill I have ever had, i just feel it is a principle thing.
I have however, found a new vet local this week and taken Teddy bunny for his vhd vaccination. The vet was very lovely, approachable etc -I presume this vets will write to my old vets for my animals notes to be transferred.
No doubt I will end up getting a bill reminder through the post which knowing me will I will end up begrudgingly paying.
I also intend taking Poppy to my new vets after I have seen Vedra again for a check over and I will talk to my new vet about her problems and hopefully the vet can keep a close eye on her for me. I haven't lost faith in all vets as I know that I just need to find the right one, but I will never not go to Vedra for advice now I have met her and seen the great charitable work she does :)
 
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