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Lethal? :(

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RudderlessHippy

RudderlessHippy

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So, about two months ago I got a pair of femail guinea pigs from a local garden centre (in retrospect that was a mistake). I had kept guinea pigs before, but hadn't had any for years.

All was fine for a while, they were doing really well, though one was very skittish (she's still not very freindly)
Then a month later I noticed the bigger of the two, Alice, was getting unusually fat. It ws soon apparent that she was pregnant. A few weeks later it became obvious that my other piggy, Matilda, was pregnant as well.

Alice gave bith a week ago, everything was fine. She had three pups, all are doing really well.
Matlida, however, had her babies three days ago. she had three as well. One is fine, but the other two aren't so good. One is really small and seems to have a problem with its eye (its always half closed and looks swollen). The other is white all over and seems to be blind. I think its a lethal, it may be deaf as well. Matilda does have a few white hairs so could carry the roan gene. They are all going to the vet tomorrow for a checkup.

On top of this I had to take Alice to the vet last week because she was loosing clumps of fur. I was told she has ringworm, but they can't treat it untill she has weaned. I think Matilda has it too now, and I'm woried it will pass to the babies.

I have phoned up the garden centre to complain about the pregnancies, but they didn't seem to care. Is it worth reporting them to someone, perhaps the RSPCA?

Also how do I check the white babie's teeth to see if they are ok. I read that lethals normally have bad teeth, and I am worried about it, it seems to get left out a lot from feeding, I think Matilda is trying to get away from it...

I have seperated the two families, because it was complete chaos keeping them all together. I hope this was the right thing to do. Will I have to be careful when reintroducing them. I am keeping the females, but I have to find homes for the males, as I really don't have the space for any more piggies, much as I love them.

Any advice would be useful :S
 
Gosh what an awful situation to have found yourself in. I think you should report the place to the rspca. It is worth a try anyway. It is a good idea to write a letter to the local authority stating the guinea pigs are being kept in mix sexes and also that they have ringworm. Hopefully then they will investigate. Are you able to sex the babies? If not then put pictures up on here and people will be able to help you. The boars need to be removed at three weeks as they can get their mother and sister pregnant.

I would take the little baby to the vets for them to check up on them and see if he may be leathal.
 
I think pigtures would certainly help if you are able to get them so we can see if it is a lethal or not. :)
 
You may already be aware of these, so please dont feel I'm patronising, just covering some basis.

Mummies and pups would really benifit from some alfalfa hay, and if they are currently living outside bringing in if at all possible. Either into the house or into a heated shed/garage.

Please keep an eye on the weight of all the babies untill the end of the nursing period, and as already said boys will need seperating at 3 weeks. If you need any help sexing just pop some nice clear pictures up.
 
Thanks for the advice. They all live inside at the moment, and we know someone who is good with guinea pigs who can come over and sex them for me. I have their birthdays marked on the calendar.

set


Thats the best picture of the white pup I could get, its eyes are really small and pinkish, and it keeps walking into the sides of its enclosure and it doesn't run awa from my hands like the others.
 
I'm no expert, but I'm thinking it might be a lethal... Something doesn't look right with the little love. Hopefully someone with experience with them will be around soon to confirm/offer you advice as to what to do with the pup. Chances are it will need lots of help with extra feeding etc.
 
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It seems to be eating hay at the moment. I'll get the vet to check its teeth tomorrow.
 
I have never had any experience with lethals, but we have some people who can give you advice.

Here is a thread that explains lethals; your baby sounds and looks like it could be one.
http://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=51194&highlight=lethals

PS: You can complain to the local council about trading standards - that is the most effective, especially as you haven;t had any response about them selling you two pregnant piggies.
 
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Would it be possible for yourself to post images of this pup's Mother, and littermates, and your other guinea pig family?!
 
I would say that little one looks like a lethal. Fingers crossed with love and care the baby will have a happy life. A visit to the vet will help confirm what care he needs. He is so cute.x)
 
The eye of the baby does look to be smaller than normal, though that could just be that it is slightly closed in the photo. Could you post a pic of the area on the mum that you believed to be roan, just to check.

If your baby has all 4 front teeth then there is a chance that the back teeth are ok, if either upper or lower are missing then you will be able to tell by lifting the lips gently. The vet will need to check the back teeth.

If you would like to discuss the options available to you if the baby does prove to be a lethal you are welcome to phone me at the rescue. I would appreciate knowing just where the girls were purchased as this is not the first case of lethals born to a petshop pregnancy in the area.

Suzy x
Glynneath Guinea Pig Rescue
01639 721127 (10 am - 4pm )
 
Thank you for all the advice

Here is Matilda with the rest of her litter:
guinea-family.jpg


It was Raglan Garden Centre, I don't think they have been selling pets for very long. They used to only sell fish.
The assistant gave me a lot of wrong advice, and I was naive enough to think he knew what he was talking about.
 
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Well there's no doubt that mum is a roan. So the possibility that the baby is a lethal is quite high, given the physical/behavioural description. There is a spectrum to the severity of the condition so once the little one has been assessed hopefully we can help with the decisions to be made.

Suzy x
 
I would have to agree - Unfortunately, due to the presence of Roan colouration on Mum, and the presence of rosettes on Mum, and one of the pup's littermates, it is quite possible that this pup is a lethal!

I hope all goes well at your vets tomorrow!
 
I have no advice what so ever as I have no experience but I want to wish you and the piggies well at the vets tomorrow.

Matilda and the babies are gorgeous.

This is definitely the place to be for good advice and Suzy will be able to help you.
 
Mum's definately got roaning and baby looks very likely to have sight problems - hence not running away from your hand etc. So I would guess he is a lethal

Please make sure he is feeding from Mum ok. He may have more problems eating solids etc so please weigh him. You should be weighing Mum and babies regularly anyway.

Lethals are beautiful babies even if they have problems but you need to get him to a really cavy savy vet so they can work out the extent of his problems so you know where you stand. Then you need to work out if you can give him the time and care he needs as they do cost moe and take more time than your average pig.

The only way to go complaints wise is through the local council. I hope yours are better than mine as they told me 'you can't conclusively prove your guinea pig has any genetic defect therefore we cannot move on this complaint..'

Feel free to message me for a chat if you want.

A poster on Guinea pig cages forum called Salana has a whole load of info on Lethals as well if you like to know the background to their problems.
 
Guinea-pigGaga said:
I would have to agree - Unfortunately, due to the presence of Roan colouration on Mum, and the presence of rosettes on Mum, and one of the pup's littermates, it is quite possible that this pup is a lethal!

I hope all goes well at your vets tomorrow!
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Guinea-pigGaga could you explain the link between rosettes and the lethal gene combination of a roan/roan mating. The lethals I have dealt with have had no rosettes at all and are doing very well as adults, though I have seen several that were crested.

Sorry to take this off on a tangent from the baby for a bit - they more info we share about these conditions they more we are able to help.

Suzy x
 
I've got two gorgeous lethal boys here at the Sanctuary, who are brothers. Bill and Ted are blind and deaf, and Ted has a head tilt but other than that they are happy and healthy. You may think that being blind and deaf is a dreadful handicap, but these little guys have never had these senses and therefore it is no big deal. I don't think of them as having special needs, as as far as I am concerned they are normal guinea pigs who can't hear or see. They live life to the full, and to be honest seem to have more of a zest for life than most other guinea pigs. They are always on the go, popcorning and playing. They are somewhat smaller than the average boar, but eat very well, and their small stature is obviously normal for them.

It does look as if your little guy is a lethal, and I will be very interested in hearing what the vet has to say. My concern is that the vet may say that it would be kinder to put to sleep, and in some cases this would be the correct advice. However, it depends on the severity of any issues. Most vets will never have seen a lethal piggie so may find it hard to give any positive advice.
 
furryfriends (Excellent Adventure Sanctuary) said:
My concern is that the vet may say that it would be kinder to put to sleep, and in some cases this would be the correct advice. However, it depends on the severity of any issues. Most vets will never have seen a lethal piggie so may find it hard to give any positive advice.
Click to expand...

This is certainly what I have found. It is not a subject many vets are familiar with and I have found my vet asking me about Hamish's problems!

It is definately worth giving this little guy a chance and as he was born alive he is already ahead of the game as many severly affected lethals don't make it past a few days old.

Let us know how it goes with the vet :)
 
Suzygpr said:
Guinea-pigGaga could you explain the link between rosettes and the lethal gene combination of a roan/roan mating. The lethals I have dealt with have had no rosettes at all and are doing very well as adults, though I have seen several that were crested.

Sorry to take this off on a tangent from the baby for a bit - they more info we share about these conditions they more we are able to help.

Suzy x
Click to expand...

An interesting idea, I was not under the impression the coat type made a difference as I have seen lethals online with a variety of coat types including crested, abby, long haired etc. My Hamish is a rex with what appears to be a crest but in all my reading on lethals I had not come across a hair related theory.

The gene defect is on the roan gene and I believe it's recessive hence the chance of 1 baby in 4 of roanxroan mating being a lethal.

The defect is of a gene that develops certain cells so they lack the developed specialist cells that make up the inner ear, eyes and also some dental and internal digestive structures. This leads to the associated micropthalmia, blindness, deafness, balance issues and small stature. They also appear to have distinct dysmorphic facial features (My OH is a doctor and they are trained to notice these things, having looked at lots of lethals online when we took on Hamish, Furry Friends - Bill & Ted also seem to share these facial charcteristics as does Fairy, a lethal who has her own blog online)

All these problems do not mean a full life is not achievable. Bill, Ted, FAiry & others are proof of this. With a bit of TLC these guys can have a great time. x
 
Although Simon sees many more guinea pigs than the average vet, Bill and Ted were the first lethals he had seen. I became the centre of attention that day though, as when he was examining them for the first time, I started to feel faint and slid down the wall onto the floor in the consulting room! I think he was more concerned about me, than them! He said I rather matched them in colour! :))
 
Yeah I don't think they get taught about it in vet school either...

I chatted to some of my friends who are vets and they had never come across it in books or in practice although they had seen related conditions in merle collies and white horses, however these are different gene defects and are NOT the same condition.

I was offered gene testing to be sent to America to prove it. Didn't think it was worth it in the long run as it didn't change how I look after Hamish or his quality of life.
 
Just come back from vets, she checked all their teeth and they seemed fine, even the one suspected of being a lethal. It is definitly blind and deaf, but apart from that its fine. The vet had never heard of lethals before though. I don't think they see many guinea pigs in Usk.

I'm going to keep the white one, it needs a name, though I don't know if its a boy or girl yet.

We have reported the garden centre to the council, and they seem to be taking it very seriously, which is good.

Loos like Matilda has mites though :s

Thanks for all the help and advice on here. Its been a bit of a mad situation, I will certainly never buy guinea pigs from a shop again!
 
Great news that you have reported the garden centre and I am pleased you have decided to keep the white lethal baby. I'm sure Debbie (furryfriends) will give you plenty of advice to help him have a happy life. Seriously, I have seen photo's of Bill and Ted and you wouldn't think there was anything wrong with them :) I hope Matilda feels better soon too xx
 
Claire W said:
Great news that you have reported the garden centre and I am pleased you have decided to keep the white lethal baby. I'm sure Debbie (furryfriends) will give you plenty of advice to help him have a happy life. Seriously, I have seen photo's of Bill and Ted and you wouldn't think there was anything wrong with them :) I hope Matilda feels better soon too xx
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I will definitely be able to give you lots of advice. One very important thing is to never just reach into the cage to pick them up, as this can be very scary. I always put my hand just in front of them so they can smell I am there, and after holding that hand in front of them for a little while, I then reach in with the other hand to pick them up, and use both hands to lift them. They were very skittish to start with but now come dashing over as soon as they can smell I am about. I will find the link to some of the videos of the boys so you can see them playing.
 
If you are going to report them to the council try to get lots of photographic evidence as well, even of the mites on one of the piggies & email them the evidence! :) Keep a copy of the photos as well for future reference in case you are asked for it.
 
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