Little Ginny developes sludge, asking for diet advice.

[Davide]

Hi all!

Our little Ginny, almost 3 years old girl, ha developed sludge, and she will most likely undergo a flushing procedure next week.
We've been told by our vet that her diet is fine, but since it's the second case of sludge that we have in a short time, I'd like to ask the expert of the forum for a second opinion

Our piggies diet is the following:

- no-limit hay, a mix of Timothy (either supreme science selective health or Timothy hay from Little hay company, depending on availability) and a softer, slightly less fiber hay from Little hay company. The mix is skewed towards Timothy, probably 65% Timothy vs 35% the softer type.
I've gotta say, the only real diet change we introduced since ages ago is the hay from Little Hay, and we never had sludge problems with our previous 7 piggies. I wonder if the hay could be an issue?

- supreme science selective balanced guinea pig pellets. We probably have been giving them @ but too much, we fill a small cat-size bowl probably every 3-4 days. It could end up being a bit more than the often mentioned 1 tablespoon per day.

- veggies: around a cup a day per piggie of a mix of lettuce (usually little gem, very occasionally mixed leaf), peppers, cucumber. Occasionally carrots added to the mix. Occasionally parsley/coriander, but more like a treat.

- bottled water from Tesco or M&S, at around 40mg calcium.

Is there anything here that stands out to you as being off? The problem is we've been told we shouldn't get to the opposite side of too little calcium either, as that is equally dangerous.
I would think with the low calcium veggies and water, that should balance the maybe slightly higher intake or pellets, and keep the scale in balance? The hay is really a question mark tho.

Thank you for your help
Here's Ginny, who unfortunately hasn't received an haircut in a while, because of all the things that happened with us, Olivia and her in the last 2-3 weeks.

 

[Merab]

I don’t have any experience but in my opinion a low calcium diet of suitable veggies, a limited amount of pellets and filtered water should help.

I have a Brita filter which I use to filter the water.
Mine get about half a tablespoon of Science Selective grain free pellets most days
I try to steer clear of the high calcium veg like spinach.

Hope Ginny will be ok

 

[Piggies&buns]

Some types of hay contain more calcium than others and if it is a higher calcium hay, maybe that when combined with the potential more than recommended pellet intake that the balance has been knocked despite the veg portion being low calcium.
You are right, go too low on calcium and you also get the same problems

Perhaps you could stop the soft hay entirely or change the ratio so she has higher Timothy with perhaps just a handful of the soft per day.
I personally would be more strict with pellets regardless of what you do with the hay though.
Sticking to just one tablespoon per day, once those are gone then that is it, no more until the next day rather than being given constant access to a bowl full of them (ideally their one tablespoon of pellets would be served scattered round the cage rather than fed in a bowl).

It is about finding what works for the balance for your piggies as it’s not going to be the same for everyone.
My approach is a bit different (we don’t have bladder issues) - I feed fresh food in a slightly larger quantity than the recommended one cup per day - lettuce, bell pepper, coriander and cucumber every day. I give a small amount of spring greens or kale once or twice a week for the calcium. They get fresh weeds/ forage and hours (up to 12 on suitable days) of lawn time in summer and that is replaced with dried forage in winter. The major difference is that I don’t feed any pellets at all (I used to give around 5-8 pellets per day but then stopped entirely). Their hay is just plain old meadow hay and water is filtered.

 

[Davide]

Some types of hay contain more calcium than others and if it is a higher calcium hay, maybe that when combined with the potential more than recommended pellet intake that the balance has been knocked despite the veg portion being low calcium.
You are right, go too low on calcium and you also get the same problems

Perhaps you could stop the soft hay entirely or change the ratio so she has higher Timothy with perhaps just a handful of the soft per day.
I personally would be more strict with pellets regardless of what you do with the hay though.
Sticking to just one tablespoon per day, once those are gone then that is it, no more until the next day rather than being given constant access to a bowl full of them (ideally their one tablespoon of pellets would be served scattered round the cage rather than fed in a bowl).

It is about finding what works for the balance for your piggies as it’s not going to be the same for everyone.
My approach is a bit different (we don’t have bladder issues) - I feed fresh food in a slightly larger quantity than the recommended one cup per day - lettuce, bell pepper, coriander and cucumber every day. I give a small amount of spring greens or kale once or twice a week for the calcium. They get fresh weeds/ forage and hours (up to 12 on suitable days) of lawn time in summer and that is replaced with dried forage in winter. The major difference is that I don’t feed any pellets at all (I used to give around 5-8 pellets per day but then stopped entirely). Their hay is just plain old meadow hay and water is filtered.

Thank you so much for the detailed reply!
I get the point about the pellets, and we'll reduce the quantity. It looks to me like Ginny doesn't really eat more than a tablespoon a day, as the small bowl usually lasts a week or so, but we can definitely control it more daily.
The advice on the hay is also great, I think you mean reducing the soft hay and increasing the Timothy?
One last thing if you have the patience to elaborate on the forage we don't have a lawn so that's not an option, but what kind of dried forage would we be looking at, and what purpose does it serve in their diet? Thank you so much in advance!

 

[Davide]

I don’t have any experience but in my opinion a low calcium diet of suitable veggies, a limited amount of pellets and filtered water should help.

I have a Brita filter which I use to filter the water.
Mine get about half a tablespoon of Science Selective grain free pellets most days
I try to steer clear of the high calcium veg like spinach.

Hope Ginny will be ok

Thanks @Merab!
I was wondering if something like a Brita filters the calcium. I don't think it's something we need to do as our diet is pretty low calcium, aside from the question mark of the hay. I also think Ginny pretty much eats a tablespoon of pellets a day, tho we have been giving enough to last for a week or so each time. As I said in my other reply, we can switch to giving daily doses, to keep it more under control.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Yes either stop the soft hay entirely, or reduce the soft down to just one handful and make sure most of her hay intake is Timothy

Yes definitely decrease pellets. It is never recommended to give a weeks worth at a time.
Mine used to eat their daily pellet allowance (as I say I would only give between 5 and 8 pellets each) within 30 minutes of being given and then no more for a further 24 hours. As I say, I don’t give pellets at all now.

Forage is a supplementary part of the diet given as part of the pellet portion (so totalling one tablespoon per day ie half a tablespoon of pellets and half a tablespoon of forage) of instead of pellets. It consists of leaves and other safe weeds such as dandelions, birch leaves etc. They are given fresh in summer but I buy dried from piggie parcels (a company run by a member of this forum) for winter supplies.
It’s given via a small sprinkle on their hay

Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

 

[Davide]

Yes either stop the soft hay entirely, or reduce the soft down to just one handful and make sure most of her hay intake is Timothy

Yes definitely decrease pellets. It is never recommended to give a weeks worth at a time.
Mine used to eat their daily pellet allowance (as I say I would only give between 5 and 8 pellets each) within 30 minutes of being given and then no more for a further 24 hours. As I say, I don’t give pellets at all now.

Forage is a supplementary part of the diet given as part of the pellet portion (so totalling one tablespoon per day ie half a tablespoon of pellets and half a tablespoon of forage) of instead of pellets. It consists of leaves and other safe weeds such as dandelions, birch leaves etc. They are given fresh in summer but I buy dried from piggie parcels (a company run by a member of this forum) for winter supplies.
It’s given via a small sprinkle on their hay

Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

Ah no sorry, what I meant is that the small bowl we give lasts them about a week! Looking at the full bowl I'd be say if it can fit around 5-6 tablespoon. Ginny is not really into pellets anyways, so one more reason to give them daily and we'll look at the dried forage from piggie parcel as supplement. Thank you again!

 

[Piggies&buns]

Ah no sorry, what I meant is that the small bowl we give lasts them about a week! Looking at the full bowl I'd be say if it can fit around 5-6 tablespoon. Ginny is not really into pellets anyways, so one more reason to give them daily and we'll look at the dried forage from piggie parcel as supplement. Thank you again!

Yes I understood what you meant.
Do only give a very limited amount daily going forward though

Not only is leaving them with constant access to a bowl full of pellets unhealthy (pellets being one of the main contributors to bladder problems), pellets also lose vit c when exposed to air and light and can get contaminated.

You would need to give even less than one tablespoon of pellets each day if you do use forage. Do note some forage items are higher in calcium so can’t be fed daily

 

[Davide]

Thanks @Piggies&buns, it's all very clear,
and the point about the pellets losing nutrients when exposed to air was completely missed on us.
We'll sprinkle one tablespoon near the water bottle so hopefully Ginny is encouraged to drink when she goes for them.

And yes, when we do introduce forage it will replace part of the pellets, that part is also clear.
We must have underestimated this, as we never had bladder problems on our first 7 piggies, then suddenly 2 cases in a row when we actually had already decreased the amount of pellets we were giving them, so our instinct was to look somewhere else for the issue.

We'll do the changes and keep the fingers crossed.
My understanding is that the calcium issue in Ginny is not something that we just need to solve now, but likely need to manage for a long time, so it's great to have a bit more clarity on this.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Yes it’s something to keep an eye on in all piggies but some are more prone to issues than others

It’s about finding a balance which works for each and it’s not necessarily going to be the same across the board - it’s just that pellets and water (in hard water areas) are known to be the biggest contributors. Hay is essential so I never (and haven’t done in 40 years of small animal keeping) give the calcium content of hay a thought and It’s why I don’t feed pellets at all; instead give a portion of higher calcium veggies instead - it’s what works for mine to keep the balance