Looking for advice about 2 sows!

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conniebuns

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Hi there! I'm going to give a bit of background on the situation just for context!

Over the past year I've gone from having 2 separate successful pairs of pigs (1 sow & 1 neutered boar in one enclosure and then 2 sows in another) to just 2 sows on their own. The 2 that are left havent lived together but would have been out together during playtime and can see each other very clearly through their enclosures/sniff each other.
When I tried to pair them on neutral ground they fought and I mean, fought. I've never seen anything like it, all my other pairings have been really successful. They were flying at each other, biting, showing teeth, pulling hair out etc luckily no blood or cuts but I separated them. They were not happy at all!

I've tried to properly bond them a total of 3 times now and each time has resulted in complete failure, mega teeth chattering, flying at each other, biting etc.
The oldest sow is 5 years old now and has previously lived with 2 other females, then one female and then lastly her piggy husband and honestly, she seems pretty set in her ways and enjoys her own company, sniffing Ivy (other sow) through the bars and getting pets from us.

Ivy who is 2 years old now, I think is lonely and would like a friend. She was bonded with her sister who was a very unwell piggy and sadly passed away last year in April from a whole manner of health issues bless her. She's quite a nervous pig but is coming round finally to us but, she likes being able to see Pumpkin (older sow) and is full of beans and I think would like someone to snuggle with!

My question is, should I try and pair Ivy with a younger sow/neutered boar and keep them separate from Pumpkin or should I get a third pig and try to mix the three of them together?
I know this is long winded but, I felt I needed to explain things!
 
I’m sorry for your losses.

There is no point in trying to put Ivy and Pumpkin together even with a third piggy. It’s very clear from what you have said that they simply don’t like each other and having a third piggy in the mix is not going to change that. Sows don’t tend to change their mind about another piggy and older sows can become very set in their ways

If Ivy is lonely then getting her own new live in friend would be a very good idea. Pumpkin can remain single, if she wishes to, but with her cage next to Ivy (and her new friend) for interaction through the bars so Pumpkin does not become lonely herself.
 
Piggies&buns said:
I’m sorry for your losses.

There is no point in trying to put Ivy and Pumpkin together even with a third piggy. It’s very clear from what you have said that they simply don’t like each other and having a third piggy in the mix is not going to change that. Sows don’t tend to change their mind about another piggy and older sows can become very set in their ways

If Ivy is lonely then getting her own new live in friend would be a very good idea. Pumpkin can remain single, if she wishes to, but with her cage next to Ivy (and her new friend) for interaction through the bars so Pumpkin does not become lonely herself.
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Hi! Thank you so much for replying to me so quickly! Yes, from what you've said I totally agree - I just had hopes that they would eventually get along but I don't think that will happen! It's more so Pumpkin than Ivy, Pumpkin is the first to attack and Ivy just has to defend herself.
Pumpkin was very mean to her piggy husband at first but then loved him after a week together and it's sad that she is a widow pig now :(.
I think they're maybe both dominant piggies and neither one of them wants to back down and submit - probably given their ages now as well!
Thank you so much, I'll keep an eye out at our local rescue for any single piggies - do you think it would be best to get a boar or sow?
 
Pumpkin sounds to be a feisty lady!

It comes down entirely to who Ivy will accept - its impossible to know whether she will prefer a boar or a sow as she could accept/reject either just as easily if they aren’t compatible. With that said, once acceptance has occurred with a neutered boar then a boar/sow bond tends to be more stable. If she has a sow, then it’s best if the sow is younger so cannot challenge her for dominance
 
Piggies&buns said:
Pumpkin sounds to be a feisty lady!

It comes down entirely to who Ivy will accept - its impossible to know whether she will prefer a boar or a sow as she could accept/reject either just as easily if they aren’t compatible. With that said, once acceptance has occurred with a neutered boar then a boar/sow bond tends to be more stable. If she has a sow, then it’s best if the sow is younger so cannot challenge her for dominance
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Perfect thank you - I've just checked our shelter there now and there's an 8 month old neutered male piggy up for adoption so I've sent the details to my husband to get the go ahead haha!
Hopefully they are still offering piggy dating as well coz I'd hate for us to bring a piggy home and they don't bond!
Thanks for your help!
 
Piggies&buns said:
Pumpkin sounds to be a feisty lady!

It comes down entirely to who Ivy will accept - its impossible to know whether she will prefer a boar or a sow as she could accept/reject either just as easily if they aren’t compatible. With that said, once acceptance has occurred with a neutered boar then a boar/sow bond tends to be more stable. If she has a sow, then it’s best if the sow is younger so cannot challenge her for dominance
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Also yes, Pumpkin is very fiesty! She's affectionately called Queen Pumpski/Ski/Skeebs in our house lol she rules the roost!
 
As you’re going to a rescue centre, if they weren’t able to offer dating and you have to do the bonding yourself, then they should be able to offer you the option of returning the boar if things don’t work, and try another when one is available
 
:agr: fully with the advice from @Piggies&buns .

All the best!

Older sows are often not willing to accept a new companion and - if they have never lived with another piggy but their mate from very young - can also be very fearful, which often results in an aggressive over-reaction (fear-aggression). However, once a piggy has made up their mind that a piggy is not a wanted part of us 'US' (even if 'us' means a group of one), then you have had it. In those cases, next-door company with interaction and social stimulation through the bars but their own safe territory is usually the best compromise between their conflicting needs of not accepting a companion but still need ongoing interaction and stimulation of their own kind through the bars.

Here is more information on these particular social aspects, which you will hopefully find both helpful and interesting:
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
Moody guinea pigs: Depression, Bullying, Aggression, Stress, Fear and Antisocial Behaviour
Single Guinea Pigs - Challenges and Responsibilities
 
Hey there, I thought I would come back with an update on our bonding adventure with Ivy.

So, we contacted our local rescue about 2 weeks ago about an older single boar which they then advised he wasn't neutered but they had a young boar who had been neutered about 10 weeks ago and sounded like a better pairing (potentially) as he was younger.
We've named him Pogo and he's very cute but mischievous lol.
I split Ivy's house into 2 halves so they could see/smell each other - they've been beside each other for 4 days and Ivy was very intruiged/interested with no negative signs from either.
I decided to bring them both out to neutral grounds to introduce them today. It was going good, lots of butt sniffing, rumbling from Pogo and eating and then some challenging but it teetered off as Ivy was backing away from Pogo so diffusing the situation.
No fights broke out so, I cleaned out the cage with fresh blankets/bedding etc and because their meeting had been positive, I put them back in together without the divider. Now, admittedly I would have liked them to be out much longer but my spouse was saying that Ivy was stressed being out etc so, contrary to my judgement and previous experience I put them back in without them napping together which, I think was a mistake.
Pogo will not stop rumblestrutting at Ivy, so far as to seek her out when she's napping and do it with heckles raised etc this was then followed by teeth chattering and that sort of high pitched 'unsure' noises from Ivy. Things calmed and nothing escalated but Pogo will NOT stop rumbling. He's 7 months old so, probably hormone driven even though he's neutered and well past the 6 week post op stage.
They eventually had a fight as I think Ivy was just getting annoyed at him bothering her. It was more Ivy launching herself at Pogo and him running away. No blood or wounds on either of them thank goodness.
They then kept going from separating from each other and napping/eating to Pogo going over to Ivy and contantly rumbling at her as if to start something and then Ivy finishing it by nipping/chasing/biting.
Very loud teeth chattering ensued with lots of noise etc
I've now put the divider back in as I think Pogo is over stimulated. Even now with the divider up he's rumbling at Ivy if she comes over and biting at the bars or trying to scratch at the blankets to get over to her.
I don't really know what to do!
We had a boar called Kylo who we mixed with Pumpkin but the 1st time we put them back into the house together they fought which resulted in Pumpkin getting an under eye injury, and were separated for a few weeks then reintroduced in neutral ground and were the best of buds until he sadly passed away last year so, I'm not willing to give up just yet!
I'm just more looking for someone with experience with younger pigs etc.
Pogo as far as I know, was at the rescue since he was 3 weeks old and was in with all boars. It was made out to me initially that he was very sweet etc but when I picked him up they said he's constantly at the other males so, I'm not sure if it's an issue with dominance and it won't work out. I don't think Ivy is dominant, I think she's scared so it's fear aggression. She was paired with her small sister when I adopted her and so hasn't been with any other piggy since she died last April?
Anyways, thanks in advance!
 
It does sound very tense and if his heckles are raised that’s not really a good sign. Did she accept being humped, chased or mounted at all? Was there any submission from either of them or any time when one backed down?

How is the she behaving? You usually have to go by what the ‘underpig’ is doing. If she doesn’t seem to mind then it may be the bond won’t work.

I don’t know whether it would be advisable to try them again. Usually once they decide that’s it. Did the sow pull out any hair or just nipped without breaking skin?
 
Siikibam said:
It does sound very tense and if his heckles are raised that’s not really a good sign. Did she accept being humped, chased or mounted at all? Was there any submission from either of them or any time when one backed down?

How is the she behaving? You usually have to go by what the ‘underpig’ is doing. If she doesn’t seem to mind then it may be the bond won’t work.

I don’t know whether it would be advisable to try them again. Usually once they decide that’s it. Did the sow pull out any hair or just nipped without breaking skin?
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Ivy was backing up when he was rumbling at her and backing down as I thought but when they first met, Pogo tried humping Ivy and she was having none of it - turned around and nipped him to tell him off.
I think it's the constant rumbling that's making Ivy annoyed, he seeks her out and rumbles infront of her and is looking to be challenging her which obviously provokes Ivy, resulting in loud chattering and then lunging/chasing.
There's been no hair pulling and no blood/injuries. I don't know if maybe she's in season because it's spring mixed with hormones because he's 7 months old?
I might try to mix them again once the rumblestrutting has stopped (if it ever does) - I'm feeling really deflated if I'm honest and at the prospect of having now a 3rd single pig I'm feeling foolish into getting him because I could have just left things as they are with Ivy and Pumpkin having company with each other through their bars.
In normal times we could have dated a few pigs with Ivy but because of Covid the sanctuary is closed to the public so it's just a fingers crossed situation.
 
Teen months are a hard time to try and bond boars, but it’s not impossible. He may tumble again when you try again so be prepared for that. Have a read of the guide below to see where their behaviour was on the scale. Did he look like he was on the defensive or just rumbling and trying to hump/chase her?
Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs
 
I'm not sure to be honest, it seems more of trying to impress her but then Ivy is responding by chasing/biting him away to which he's very over-reactive to like, he jumps about 10ft in the air when she comes near him!
She's not rumbling back at him but she does lie down and yawn/show teeth and she's the one doing any lunges or nips and after she's nipped him they both do very loud teeth chattering at each other. It eventually calms down and they both do their own thing but Pogo then spots her and rumbles at her and they start over again.
I think he's maybe challenging her as well? He seems to come at her front on all the time which Ivy immediately gets defensive over.
I don't know if they both were just majorly stressed today - they've only seen each other for 4 days and my spouse switched their enclosure around before putting them back in without the divide so it wasn't familiar to Ivy or Pogo (he was hoping that it wouldn't be familiar territory so they couldn't fight over which part was whose kind of thing).
I'm just a big pile of dunno at the moment! Ivy isn't trying to bite or attack him through the divide but as I say, Pogo is still rumbling when he sees her but no heckles raised and no loud stress noises.
Would it be normal for guineas to fight through a divide?
I had a look at the attachment and they were definitely in the warning/later stages of dominance behaviour. Ivy does let him win but then he keeps going after her which then results in biting from her. There's such a massive size difference between the two of them as well, Ivy is 1.3kg and Pogo is 1kg but is small compared to Ivy - she's a unit! Mostly of hair lol she's a texel!
 
There's been no skin breaks at all so maybe it's just nipping? But they have had a proper tussle - Ivy definitely lunged herself at him but as I say, I think it looked worse than what it was as Pogo is very exciteable/over-reactive? There was no loud squealing in pain or anything like that, just a lot of loud chattering afterwards x
 
Tagging @Wiebke for her views.
My perspective is that you have a very rumbly, humpy young boar. Many boars are stimulated when they first meet their sow. However, some seem less interested and some, like Popo,don’t seem to know where the off switch is. Usually that huge excitement and need to impress the lady eases within 48 - 72 hours, when he finally realises that she’s going to be there permanently. However, for some sows this over ardent attention is just too much. My own Ralph is a darling to humans but spends his entire life rumbling chasing and mounting his sows. Despite many sow introductions to him only Holly and Hazel have been sows who can stand his attentions.
Please try reintroducing again on entirely neutral ground and give them a long introduction. If you get a bit of chasing and nipping and it settles down, all well and good. But if Ivy lunges at him and you get a rolling furball then you will know that she has decided it is a failed bond.
 
Hi!

I second @VickiA 's advice. Boars can get over-excited when meeting a sow for the first time, especially teenagers and young adults.
Not every sow will want to live with a boar, either. Cross gender bondings can fail during the post-bonding dominance phase.

All you can do is to try another formal intro on neutral ground. Have your oven gloves and a divider or a carrier box ready. If the bonding has not worked, you will know pretty quickly. Once a piggy has made up their mind that they don't want another one, they are not going to change their mind. It always comes down to the dynamics and whether the piggies gel or not. You can never predict that.
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics

Lunging is a defensive behaviour (stay out of my space) and nipping a mild dominance behaviour but crucial is how the other side reacts and whether they respect the message or not. Hormone-driven boars are often caught between their urges and that messages, and their urges do often win out - and lose them the bond. :(
 
Thank you for replying - yeah I'm worried that he'll keep pestering her despite her giving all the warning signs! I'm going to see if he'll calm down whilst their divided and then try again - he only really started rumbling a 24/48hrs after they'd seen each other through the divide, before that they were pretty polite with each other. I'll maybe do another update after I've reintroduced them together.
Also, is it better to have tunnels on the neutral ground or nothing at all?
 
Nothing but hay and/or veg in the neutral area. No hides, even multi-entry ones. Good luck and I hope he calms enough to bond!
 
conniebuns said:
Thank you for replying - yeah I'm worried that he'll keep pestering her despite her giving all the warning signs! I'm going to see if he'll calm down whilst their divided and then try again - he only really started rumbling a 24/48hrs after they'd seen each other through the divide, before that they were pretty polite with each other. I'll maybe do another update after I've reintroduced them together.
Also, is it better to have tunnels on the neutral ground or nothing at all?
Click to expand...

Definitely no furniture at all.

PLEASE read the green bonding guide link. It really talks you through everything step-by-step, from setting up the bonding through all the stages of the complex bonding process with their attendant behaviours and dynamics, including a link to a failed mixed gender bonding video.
 
Heya! Thought I would give you an update on the situation!
Well, Ivy and Pogo have been separated since the first time we tried to mix them - they've been beside each other and can see/smell one another etc so, I thought tonight will be the night to introduce them again. Pogo has stopped rumbling so much at Ivy so, I feel like he calmed down a lot.

Well, it honestly couldn't have gone better! I'm so so chuffed - there was a little chattering at the start and some nipping from Ivy but, after that it was great!

Grooming beside one another, eating together & following each other around. I kept them out for a good while - at least 1 and a half/2 hours and they finally lay down beside each other (which is all I wanted) so, I've put them in together and it's going great so far.
Their set up is very simple compared to the last time as I don't know if they felt a bit cramped/overwhelmed as well but, I'm so pleased! I know they'll probably still have little tiffs here and there but that's to be expected in normal day to day piggy life!
 
I’m glad it went well. Sounds like he finally got used to being around such an attractive sow 😄
 
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