Looking for advice on three boys please!

[The Mad House]

Hi,

I'm new here, not new to owning Piggies and honestly this board has been a great source for me over the years so thank you all. I've finally gotten around to signing up though because I need some advice.

Settle in this is a story;

I had two boys named Mac and Guy, both about 5 years old and they passed earlier this year from natural causes. (I still get a big lump in my throat writing that.) Now Guy and Mac lived together but apart. (They had separate spaces and cages but were side by side and talked to each other regularly, they just fought when they were out running around together. Not during lap time though).

Guy passed first and so, not wanting Mac to be lonely we waited a set amount for him to grieve and then adopted two new Piggies who we named Pickett and Dougal.

Sadly Dougals heart was too big for this world and he passed.

I'd invested in a big C and C cage because we'd be having three piggies and knew Mac needed his own space.

Pickett and Mac then lived for a month or so before Mac passed due to natural causes.

We allowed Pickett time and then I bought two babies from Pets at home my beautiful ginger beast Gus and my tiny man Patch ( I was wary/worried about going back to the shelter we got Dougal and Pickett from). I introduced them slowly, allowed a week or so with the divider up and giving them time to play and get to know each other (they basically have the run of the house 99% of the time we're in). They were getting along great which was brilliant.

Pickett came right out of his shell and was super happy to have chirpy company. They basically taught him how to Piggie and it was beautiful.

The past month or so things have gone down hill between Patch and Gus. To the point that Patch is now scared when Gus is around and I've seen Gus lunge at Patch.
I know that Gus is probably about 2 weeks older than Patch going off size and weight from when I bought him and if they were 12 weeks then (which is a guess) I'd say they're about 8/9 months Gus also has a good 100g on Patch.

I've tried everything I can think of to stop it.

Temporary Seperation
I invested in new bedding and a bunch of new grids to give the cage a big extension
Changed their cage around
Gave them a bath together
Tried to let it just run its course

I don't know if I'm missing something or theres something I haven't tried but it's starting to upset me.

Patch currently lives on his own with a whole big side to himself and the others have the other side. They snuggle up next to each other and he's left on his own.
When we get him out he'll sit and chat for a while. He's eating fine. He's happy and popcorny when we talk to him when we get in or when we get the veggies out. I'm worried that we're not enough though and this is the fourth time I've been in tears over worrying about him being left out.

Am I being daft?

We'd never, ever give him up for adoption but we'd definitely consider getting him a friend.
The problem is what if the same thing happens?
Also because they're all young should I wait to see what happens? Or should I be finding him a friend before Christmas?

Many thanks for any help you can give me!

 

[BossHogg]

Our behaviour expert will be able to answer your questions, from my understanding, as a rule, boar trios never work. Once the "teenage phase" kicks in their hormones are all over the place causing the behaviour you describe. You'll be better getting a friend and having two happy pairs.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi,

I'm new here, not new to owning Piggies and honestly this board has been a great source for me over the years so thank you all. I've finally gotten around to signing up though because I need some advice.

Settle in this is a story;

I had two boys named Mac and Guy, both about 5 years old and they passed earlier this year from natural causes. (I still get a big lump in my throat writing that.) Now Guy and Mac lived together but apart. (They had separate spaces and cages but were side by side and talked to each other regularly, they just fought when they were out running around together. Not during lap time though).

Guy passed first and so, not wanting Mac to be lonely we waited a set amount for him to grieve and then adopted two new Piggies who we named Pickett and Dougal.

Sadly Dougals heart was too big for this world and he passed.

I'd invested in a big C and C cage because we'd be having three piggies and knew Mac needed his own space.

Pickett and Mac then lived for a month or so before Mac passed due to natural causes.

We allowed Pickett time and then I bought two babies from Pets at home my beautiful ginger beast Gus and my tiny man Patch ( I was wary/worried about going back to the shelter we got Dougal and Pickett from). I introduced them slowly, allowed a week or so with the divider up and giving them time to play and get to know each other (they basically have the run of the house 99% of the time we're in). They were getting along great which was brilliant.

Pickett came right out of his shell and was super happy to have chirpy company. They basically taught him how to Piggie and it was beautiful.

The past month or so things have gone down hill between Patch and Gus. To the point that Patch is now scared when Gus is around and I've seen Gus lunge at Patch.
I know that Gus is probably about 2 weeks older than Patch going off size and weight from when I bought him and if they were 12 weeks then (which is a guess) I'd say they're about 8/9 months Gus also has a good 100g on Patch.

I've tried everything I can think of to stop it.

Temporary Seperation
I invested in new bedding and a bunch of new grids to give the cage a big extension
Changed their cage around
Gave them a bath together
Tried to let it just run its course

I don't know if I'm missing something or theres something I haven't tried but it's starting to upset me.

Patch currently lives on his own with a whole big side to himself and the others have the other side. They snuggle up next to each other and he's left on his own.
When we get him out he'll sit and chat for a while. He's eating fine. He's happy and popcorny when we talk to him when we get in or when we get the veggies out. I'm worried that we're not enough though and this is the fourth time I've been in tears over worrying about him being left out.

Am I being daft?

We'd never, ever give him up for adoption but we'd definitely consider getting him a friend.
The problem is what if the same thing happens?
Also because they're all young should I wait to see what happens? Or should I be finding him a friend before Christmas?

Many thanks for any help you can give me!

Hi and welcome

Sadly the vast majority of boar trios fail when the boys hit the teenage months; key is character compatibility, and that is often not the case when choosing babies for looks rather than who they are hanging out with. The intense hormone spikes during that time are a test for any bond, even more so when you have more than one boy hitting a testosterone high at the same time.

I would not try to get them all together again and instead opt for a stable couple and find another solution for your odd one out.

The way is to rescue date your single boy at one of our recommended rescues (the majority offer this service), so you come home with a new mate only if acceptance has happened.
Alternatively, neutering is a good option for a very dominant hormonal boy that is a nightmare to bond; so he can live with a sow or two (rescue date with those rescues we recommend so you are in no danger of buying a pregnant sow). However, he is only 100% safe around them after a 6 weeks post-op wait. The other issue is that our mixed pair should ideally live at a distance from your boy pair because the female pheromones, especially when sows are experiencing a strong season, can set off a boars only pair. On the up side (and it is a large up), mixed gender pairs, once initial acceptance has happened are the most stable of piggy bonds. Young sows are generally very accepting of boars, but there are some rather dramatic exceptions; hence the dating recommendation, apart from the safety aspect - a couple that like each other and can choose each other tends usually leads to a very happy partnership.

This guide here discusses the phases of the teenage months as well as all the possible options after a fall-out with their various pros and cons in detail: Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
This guide here has all the information on neutering and neutering ops: Neutered / De-sexed Boars And Neutering Operations: Myths, Facts and Post-op Care
Our list of vetted and recommended UK rescues we can vouch for (please be aware that anybody can call themselves a rescue or a breeder without licensing or welfare checks, and the results can be any shade in between; which is why we have this list): Recommended Guinea Pig Rescues

If you please added your county to location in your account details (accessed by clicking on your username on the top bar), it makes appear with every post you make and allows us to tailor an advice for your neck of the woods straight away. We have members and enquiries from literally all over the world and from very different backgrounds.

 

[The Mad House]

Thank you. Sorry about the location thing. I did think I'd saved it but I havent! I'm on my phone in bed lol!

So Gus is the big boy and he's fine with Pickett but he seems to have bullied Patch out of the group and now Pickett doesn't seem to bother with him either.

Thank you for reassuring me that I'm doing the right thing not trying to put them together again. I didn't want to keep trying, because Patch just seems to retreat after any encounter with Gus now.

I'm not sure neutering would work because Patch isn't really aggressive, he's just playful, when he was still with them and Pickett was still talking to him he'd rumble a little and step on Picketts back but then popcorn away. (Pickett was never bothered by this).

Maybe the way to go is to try dating him. I know people generally don't like pets at home but the one near me has an adoption centre and I know they do piggie dating because the guy in there advised me we could try it after we lost Mac (before we ended up getting Patch and Gus - I watched them interacting for about 15 mins before I settled on the two of them and honestly thought Patch was going to end up a trouble causer because he was so spunky and Gus just seemed happy and plodding along, playing and quiet - so not just looks lol). I may have to enquire about it there as I know they've had a few single males in recently.

I've just been reading the article someone wrote aswell about Piggies bonding more with humans and now I'm worried that's what's happened with Patch because he responds to us more and talks to us when he comes out lol!

 

[Piggies&buns]

Neutering him was mentioned simply so that he can have the option to live with a female rather than trying to find another Male for him to bond with. Neutering doesn’t change their personality at all but it may be easier to bond him with a lady instead of a boy.

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you. Sorry about the location thing. I did think I'd saved it but I havent! I'm on my phone in bed lol!

So Gus is the big boy and he's fine with Pickett but he seems to have bullied Patch out of the group and now Pickett doesn't seem to bother with him either.

Thank you for reassuring me that I'm doing the right thing not trying to put them together again. I didn't want to keep trying, because Patch just seems to retreat after any encounter with Gus now.

I'm not sure neutering would work because Patch isn't really aggressive, he's just playful, when he was still with them and Pickett was still talking to him he'd rumble a little and step on Picketts back but then popcorn away. (Pickett was never bothered by this).

Maybe the way to go is to try dating him. I know people generally don't like pets at home but the one near me has an adoption centre and I know they do piggie dating because the guy in there advised me we could try it after we lost Mac (before we ended up getting Patch and Gus - I watched them interacting for about 15 mins before I settled on the two of them and honestly thought Patch was going to end up a trouble causer because he was so spunky and Gus just seemed happy and plodding along, playing and quiet - so not just looks lol). I may have to enquire about it there as I know they've had a few single males in recently.

I've just been reading the article someone wrote aswell about Piggies bonding more with humans and now I'm worried that's what's happened with Patch because he responds to us more and talks to us when he comes out lol!

Hi!

If you read the neutering guide link, it will in the first chapter explain exactly what neutering does and what it doesn't (it does NOT curb aggression, change social behaviour or personality in guinea pigs; all it does is take away the ability to make babies). There are sadly still so many misconceptions around, including from vets with no guinea pig experience.
Neutering a single boar to live with a sow is a valid alternative to rescue boar dating in those cases where you do not have access to a good standard rescue for dating and you are wary of buying yet another baby boar on spec.

Please be aware that 15 minutes is just about the initial acceptance so you will avoid total incompatibility but it doesn't cover the later bonding stages; the overall bonding process usually lasts for about 2 weeks on average until everything is fully worked and settled.
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics

Your closest boar dating rescue would be the Potteries Guinea Pig Rescue in Kidsgrove.

Patch will cling more to humans when he is on his own but he will go back to his normal behaviour when in piggy company again. That is very normal; you see the same in bereaved piggies, too.

PS: The behaviour you have cited is typical for young boars in their pre-puberty 'school weeks' when they copy and practise all the manly behaviours and are very happy when getting them right!
(This video was taken about 9 days after the neutering operation on cleaning day; the bond between the two boars failed when Dylan (and long time ex-single increasingly demanded total submission from Llelo, who was not minded to give that. Both boars now live both happily with a sow; 3 year old Dylan with an unwanted mis-sexed baby and Llelo has been chosen by one of my feuding sisters to be her husband she his queen.)

 

[The Mad House]

Hi!

If you read the neutering guide link, it will in the first chapter explain exactly what neutering does and what it doesn't (it does NOT curb aggression, change social behaviour or personality in guinea pigs; all it does is take away the ability to make babies). There are sadly still so many misconceptions around, including from vets with no guinea pig experience.
Neutering a single boar to live with a sow is a valid alternative to rescue boar dating in those cases where you do not have access to a good standard rescue for dating and you are wary of buying yet another baby boar on spec.

Please be aware that 15 minutes is just about the initial acceptance so you will avoid total incompatibility but it doesn't cover the later bonding stages; the overall bonding process usually lasts for about 2 weeks on average until everything is fully worked and settled.
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics

Your closest boar dating rescue would be the Potteries Guinea Pig Rescue in Kidsgrove.

Patch will cling more to humans when he is on his own but he will go back to his normal behaviour when in piggy company again. That is very normal; you see the same in bereaved piggies, too.

PS: The behaviour you have cited is typical for young boars in their pre-puberty 'school weeks' when they copy and practise all the manly behaviours and are very happy when getting them right!
(This video was taken about 9 days after the neutering operation on cleaning day; the bond between the two boars failed when Dylan (and long time ex-single increasingly demanded total submission from Llelo, who was not minded to give that. Both boars now live both happily with a sow; 3 year old Dylan with an unwanted mis-sexed baby and Llelo has been chosen by one of my feuding sisters to be her husband she his queen.)

I just meant neutering Gus wouldn't help because he's not the one on his own who needed to be paired off, sorry I didn't explain that very well. I did know that it doesn't do anything else because I found that out when my first two boys had to be separated and I looked at everything I could do for them.

I just meant that Patch is more laid back than Gus and not as aggressive so it'd probably be easier pairing him with another boy in general.

We've actually gotten Patch a friend tonight called Cabbage. In pets at home they actually got some of the babies out and put them in with him one at a time and observed them for about 15 mins. He made friends with Cabbage pretty quickly and we brought him home. Everything seems okay so far and I've left them to it for now. Patch was mostly just happy to be home and running around.

I've got them divided for now and then once they're used to each other and Cabbage is used to his new home I'm going to move it

That is an incredibly impressive set up!
Yeah Gus is a lot more aggressive than that and theres been lots of teeth chattering with a bit of meanness and patch has had some cuts to his rump. Pickett and Gus on the other hand are fine. Gus tries that sort of thing with Pickett and Pickett plays along until he's bored and shrugs him off.

Thank you for all the advice it means a lot. I'm hoping Patch will be able to teach Cabbage how to squeak just as loudly.

Gus and Pickett are currently happy, rumbling, playing and loving on each other lol!

 

[Wiebke]

I just meant neutering Gus wouldn't help because he's not the one on his own who needed to be paired off, sorry I didn't explain that very well. I did know that it doesn't do anything else because I found that out when my first two boys had to be separated and I looked at everything I could do for them.

I just meant that Patch is more laid back than Gus and not as aggressive so it'd probably be easier pairing him with another boy in general.

We've actually gotten Patch a friend tonight called Cabbage. In pets at home they actually got some of the babies out and put them in with him one at a time and observed them for about 15 mins. He made friends with Cabbage pretty quickly and we brought him home. Everything seems okay so far and I've left them to it for now. Patch was mostly just happy to be home and running around.

I've got them divided for now and then once they're used to each other and Cabbage is used to his new home I'm going to move it

That is an incredibly impressive set up!
Yeah Gus is a lot more aggressive than that and theres been lots of teeth chattering with a bit of meanness and patch has had some cuts to his rump. Pickett and Gus on the other hand are fine. Gus tries that sort of thing with Pickett and Pickett plays along until he's bored and shrugs him off.

Thank you for all the advice it means a lot. I'm hoping Patch will be able to teach Cabbage how to squeak just as loudly.

Gus and Pickett are currently happy, rumbling, playing and loving on each other lol!

Here is our comprehensive bonding guide: Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics

All the best!