Male Pigs-Same Cage or Just Neighbors?

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CJPigMom

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Hi All,
I just want to get a few thoughts on this. I'have two males in different cages, but neighbors. One male I got about two years ago and despite having other neighbors (they've since passed) he's always had his own cage. I recently rescued another male, about the same age and size. Today while cleaning their cages, I put them in the piggy play pen together, first, with some separation and then let them meet. They did pretty well. One mounted the other a bit as they do to show dominance, probably because he's lived alone whereas I believe the guy I rescued had closer interaction with other pigs. The less dominant guy seemed okay with it as well. It was maybe a half hour meeting and then back to their respective homes. I plan to do this a few more times to see how they do, but not sure I want to put them together as housemates. Any thoughts? And PLEASE don't tell me they "need to be in pairs" because my single guy thrives with the other pigs around and is very active and happy. Thank you.
 
Please do not do short meetings - You either need to bond them as a pair properly (with a one time meeting in neutral territory) and leave them together for life or leave them as neighbours and never put them together in the playpen.
They cannot have those short times together and then be separated - it is not how piggy relationships function.

From a human perspective it seems nice for them to have a bit of playtime and interaction and then go back to their own home. But for them it was very different - to them it was a full on bonding attempt which was aborted not through their own choice.
Bonding (ie the one time meeting with a view to them living together) is a one time event seen through to conclusion on that one first attempt. Even when successful it is a stressful event for them. They will deal with their early stages of the bonding process during the hours/full day that they are in the bonding pen before being put in the cage together (you never separate boars after a successful meeting - bonding is a one time event). They then continue for process over the next two weeks while being together in the main cage.

If you put them together they go through all the normal processes to form a hierarchy and relationship. If you then stop that process (for any other reason than them fighting) then you add a stress and frustration to them as they never got to see the bonding through. If You then put them together again for another short meeting, they have to start the process all over again from the beginning with all its stresses - only to be separated again. They never get to see the process through to conclusion but instead are repeatedly and increasingly stressed and frustrated.

He was not mounting because he was the one who had been alone longest, he was mounting because that’s what they do to form and maintain a bond, he was in the process of trying to become the dominant of the pair as they formed their bond. The other one was allowing him to do it as he was happy to be submissive (it was nothing to do with him having had closer interaction with other pigs in the past); together these two things show they are very likely to continue to form a successful bond

So if you have no intention of allowing them to be bonded and live in the same cage, then it is best to never put them in the playpen at the same time.
If you do want them bonded and living together, then put them together in neutral and if successful during that day then they go to the cage together at the end of the day, never to be separated again.

For what it’s worth, it sounded as if the acceptance phase (the first stage of bonding) was successful, and that they could have continued with the bonding process for the rest of that day in the playpen and then been moved back to the same cage together at the end of the day.

They will be happy living as neighbours (as it still provides between the bar interaction) but they are definitely happier to be bonded in a compatible pair in the same cage.
Living as neighbours is usually the alternative route taken when a bonding attempt has failed and two piggies don’t like each other.

Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated Bonding Dynamics and Behaviours
 
Piggies&buns said:
Please do not do short meetings - You either need to bond them as a pair properly (with a one time meeting in neutral territory) and leave them together for life or leave them as neighbours and never put them together in the playpen.
They cannot have those short times together and then be separated - it is not how piggy relationships function.

From a human perspective it seems nice for them to have a bit of playtime and interaction and then go back to their own home. But for them it was very different - to them it was a full on bonding attempt which was aborted not through their own choice.
Bonding (ie the one time meeting with a view to them living together) is a one time event seen through to conclusion on that one first attempt. Even when successful it is a stressful event for them. They will deal with their early stages of the bonding process during the hours/full day that they are in the bonding pen before being put in the cage together (you never separate boars after a successful meeting - bonding is a one time event). They then continue for process over the next two weeks while being together in the main cage.

If you put them together they go through all the normal processes to form a hierarchy and relationship. If you then stop that process (for any other reason than them fighting) then you add a stress and frustration to them as they never got to see the bonding through. If You then put them together again for another short meeting, they have to start the process all over again from the beginning with all its stresses - only to be separated again. They never get to see the process through to conclusion but instead are repeatedly and increasingly stressed and frustrated.

He was not mounting because he was the one who had been alone, he was mounting because that’s what they do to form and maintain a bond, he was in the process of trying to become the dominant of the pair as they formed their bond.

So if you have no intention of allowing them to be bonded and live in the same cage, then it is best to never put them in the playpen at the same time.
If you do want them bonded, then put them together in neutral and if successful during that day then they go to the cage together at the end of the day, never to be separated again.

For what it’s worth, it sounded as if the acceptance phase (the first stage of bonding) was successful and they could have continued with the bonding process that day and then been moved back the cage together to spend their lives together from that meeting.
They will be happy living as neighbours but they are happier bonded in a compatible pair

Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated Bonding Dynamics and Behaviours
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I see that you are a "moderator" for this group. I might suggest changing your tone when replying to people. You come across and judgmental and condescending and as a newer member it's very off-putting. We're all just trying to do our best. Have a great day.
 
Hello and welcome to the forum. I’m sorry you felt there was a tone behind the reply.

It sounds like they were getting on really well in the play pen. I’d definitely try another bonding if I was you. Start it early in the day and leave them as long as possible together. I usually leave mine overnight too before putting them into their forever home. Have a read of the link posted above. It’s got everything you need to know in there. Good luck.
 
There certainly was no tone in the reply. I am just providing you with the information you need
 
I see how an information heavy response like that can often come across as having a bit of a tone behind it but I'm sure it wasn't meant to be read like that. Sadly there's a lot of mixed advice out that and a lot of people come to us very ill informed and confused. We've all seen way worse belive me. It's clear you have a lovely relationship with your piggies and know them really well which helps a lot when bonding as you'll be able to see if one is acting a little out of sorts. From what you've said it sounds like bonding these two has a good chance of success and as a proud boar mum I can confirm a happy bonded boar pair is a great thing they become so comfortable in each other's company and their mischievous antics are so fun to watch. I really hope you're able to bond them and all goes well and if not going back to side by side living is a great option aswell.
 
Sweet Potato said:
I see how an information heavy response like that can often come across as having a bit of a tone behind it but I'm sure it wasn't meant to be read like that. Sadly there's a lot of mixed advice out that and a lot of people come to us very ill informed and confused. We've all seen way worse belive me. It's clear you have a lovely relationship with your piggies and know them really well which helps a lot when bonding as you'll be able to see if one is acting a little out of sorts. From what you've said it sounds like bonding these two has a good chance of success and as a proud boar mum I can confirm a happy bonded boar pair is a great thing they become so comfortable in each other's company and their mischievous antics are so fun to watch. I really hope you're able to bond them and all goes well and if not going back to side by side living is a great option aswell.
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Thank you for being kind. I've had a pair of biological brothers in the past and they were both funny to watch and like raising real kids (which I don't have) because of the little fights they'd get in. "Leave your brother alone" came out of my mouth a lot. Haha. I'm hesitant because the pig I've had longer has been an "only" with neighbors for almost two years. Any thoughts on that?
 
weepweeps said:
Hello and welcome to the forum. I’m sorry you felt there was a tone behind the reply.

It sounds like they were getting on really well in the play pen. I’d definitely try another bonding if I was you. Start it early in the day and leave them as long as possible together. I usually leave mine overnight too before putting them into their forever home. Have a read of the link posted above. It’s got everything you need to know in there. Good luck.
Click to expand...
They were, but my concern is that the pig I've had longer has only been an "only" (with other pig neighbors) and I feel like I'd be forcing something on him he might not want? Does that make sense? Am I overthinking? I don't know a ton about the pig I just rescued because we only get what info is provided when they are surrendered. It said he "got along with other pigs but might be bossy regarding food". He did NOT demonstrate that in the short time they were together. He's also a sweet guy and I don't want him to feel pressure to bond either. UGH! Kids! (ha ha) My other reason for not keeping them together is the need to upgrade my set up to give them more room to run and have their own space. This was "test" I guess while cleaning their respective habitats and I guess that might have not been the best thing. They seemed to have fun and are fine now, thankfully. Thank you for your input!
 
CJPigMom said:
I see that you are a "moderator" for this group. I might suggest changing your tone when replying to people. You come across and judgmental and condescending and as a newer member it's very off-putting. We're all just trying to do our best. Have a great day.
Click to expand...
And I suggest you change your tone towards my staff, they are volunteers and do a thankless task dealing with our multiple requests.
 
BossHogg said:
And I suggest you change your tone towards my staff, they are volunteers and do a thankless task dealing with our multiple requests.
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Wow. I have no words for this reply. Asking for kindness seems like a lot for everyone involved in the management of this page. Hope you have a better day.
 
I'm a firm believer in to get respect, you must give respect. It works both ways. My staff give the best advice possible from years of experience.
 
CJPigMom said:
Thank you for being kind. I've had a pair of biological brothers in the past and they were both funny to watch and like raising real kids (which I don't have) because of the little fights they'd get in. "Leave your brother alone" came out of my mouth a lot. Haha. I'm hesitant because the pig I've had longer has been an "only" with neighbors for almost two years. Any thoughts on that?
Click to expand...
I can't see that being alone that long should automatically rule that out. He's had through the bar interactions with other pigs so does know how to socialise. If he really wasn't ready for a cagemate this would show up as an issue pretty early on in the bonding process and from what you've said already about their interaction that doesn't seem like a problem.
 
BossHogg said:
I'm a firm believer in to get respect, you must give respect. It works both ways. My staff give the best advice possible from years of experience.
Click to expand...
Advice and Kindness are two different things. Again, have the best day!
 
CJPigMom said:
I see that you are a "moderator" for this group. I might suggest changing your tone when replying to people. You come across and judgmental and condescending and as a newer member it's very off-putting. We're all just trying to do our best. Have a great day.
Click to expand...
Hi all, I am new here and I have to agree that, while the moderator's response was "nutrient-dense" it was in no way disrespectful or denigrating. The only "tone" from the moderator I picked up was a genuine concern for the guinea pigs and a desire to help. Sometimes it's hard to hear that you made a mistake, and easy to percieve that information (and it's bearer) as blaming or judgmental, when in reality, we are perhaps feeling guilty about the mistake and blaming or judging ourselves? Just a thought....
 
Sweet Potato said:
I can't see that being alone that long should automatically rule that out. He's had through the bar interactions with other pigs so does know how to socialise. If he really wasn't ready for a cagemate this would show up as an issue pretty early on in the bonding process and from what you've said already about their interaction that doesn't seem like a problem.
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His neighbor was in a habitat ABOVE his, so more of an upstairs neighbor, but when that pig passed, he got very down. Thus the new guy "upstairs" He has other pigs in the room just not bar to bar contact. He really seemed okay with the new guy. I read that older (he's two and so is the other supposedly) bond easier because they're not full of "teenage hormones". I just feel like I'm forcing something even though it might make them both happier. I tend to over think...a LOT. Thank you!
 
Rescued One said:
Hi all, I am new here and I have to agree that, while the moderator's response was "nutrient-dense" it was in no way disrespectful or denigrating. The only "tone" from the moderator I picked up was a genuine concern for the guinea pigs and a desire to help. Sometimes it's hard to hear that you made a mistake, and easy to percieve that information (and it's bearer) as blaming or judgmental, when in reality, we are perhaps feeling guilty about the mistake and blaming or judging ourselves? Just a thought....
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That's not how I perceived it, but thanks. I'm trying to learn and didn't feel it was a mistake. I grade medical students on how they communicate with patients and I know how I perceived it. Thank you!
 
CJPigMom said:
His neighbor was in a habitat ABOVE his, so more of an upstairs neighbor, but when that pig passed, he got very down. Thus the new guy "upstairs" He has other pigs in the room just not bar to bar contact. He really seemed okay with the new guy. I read that older (he's two and so is the other supposedly) bond easier because they're not full of "teenage hormones". I just feel like I'm forcing something even though it might make them both happier. I tend to over think...a LOT.
Click to expand...
I can see there's a lot to spiral over but really if you're happy to give it a go there's not much to loose worst case scenario they fall out and have to go back to being neighbours which is how they are anyway
 
Sweet Potato said:
I can see there's a lot to spiral over but really if you're happy to give it a go there's not much to loose worst case scenario they fall out and have to go back to being neighbours which is how they are anyway
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That's very true. These guys are my "kids" so I just want the very best for them. I appreciate your help.
 
CJPigMom said:
They were, but my concern is that the pig I've had longer has only been an "only" (with other pig neighbors) and I feel like I'd be forcing something on him he might not want?
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If he doesn't want it, he'll show you that during the bonding process by not accepting the other one. When you're set up with enough space in one cage conglomeration or C&C, I'd try the whole bonding process for the two boys. If it doesn't work out, you and they have lost nothing.

Good luck.
 
Mrs Tiggy Winkle said:
If he doesn't want it, he'll show you that during the bonding process by not accepting the other one. When you're set up with enough space in one cage conglomeration or C&C, I'd try the whole bonding process for the two boys. If it doesn't work out, you and they have lost nothing.

Good luck.
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That's very true. Thank you.
 
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