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Max = Lethargic And Heavy Breathing

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Thanks @helen105281. I have managed to get a couple of Bunny pellets in Max and he's also eaten some grass and a bit of broccoli this morning. His poops are bigger but he is not weeing. I am giving him water from the bottle direct so I know he is drinking some.
The prescription from the vet I got on Saturday is for
5ml of Frusol twice a day
and
3ml of Baytril twice a day.
I will phone the vet and ask if I should increase the Frusol to 3 times day. I seem to remember reading someone had to give 3 lots of medication a day as a diarectic.
 
I am unsure on Frusol dosing as I use the tablets when mine need it, but I think it is common to give a bigger dose of diuretic to start with of at least 10mg and then taper it off as needed. Do you know what the dose you are giving is in mg? I always give lots of extra fluids when mine are on it too so you may need to do that.
 
the vets bill shows
10.00 x Frusol Sol 40mg/5ml per ml. Do you think that is strong enough.
The earliest vet appointment I could get is tomorrow at 8.30 am.
 
worried val of york said:
Thanks @helen105281. I have managed to get a couple of Bunny pellets in Max and he's also eaten some grass and a bit of broccoli this morning. His poops are bigger but he is not weeing. I am giving him water from the bottle direct so I know he is drinking some.
The prescription from the vet I got on Saturday is for
5ml of Frusol twice a day
and
3ml of Baytril twice a day.
I will phone the vet and ask if I should increase the Frusol to 3 times day. I seem to remember reading someone had to give 3 lots of medication a day as a diarectic.
Click to expand...
Hi Val - do you really mean 0.5ml and 0.3ml twice day for the doses? Hope he keeps eating before you see vet tomorrow - come on Max. Will he take water from a syringe or mega dilute fruit juice?
 
Hi Laura
Oh dear yes I do. It's because I have fractured my middle right finger (it must be weak after original fracture back in 0ct14). It's quite swollen and I know it will take about 6 wks to calm down again. Talk about bad timing. I have syringed fed Max with some Supreme Science Recovery Plus from a packet left over from his previous visit to vet. It's all gone now so I will mix some Critical Care later. I am feeding him water by hand from the bottle to make sure he is getting some. He is pooping still so that is reassuring. I have had him on my knee for about a hour. No sign of wee but I then put him on some fresh newspaper and puppy liners in the bath and he weed straight away. I am seeing Kyle tomorrow at 8.30 am as Mark isn't available tomorrow or Friday for new appointments. Its a shame I couldn't see Mark but I feel Max needs to be examined urgently. I am hoping it is not a tumour but I am afraid the signs look bad.
 
Oh :hug:I do hope it's not as bad as you fear. You're doing all you can and I keep watching this thread hoping for a recovery. I'll be thinking of you tomorrow morning xx
 
worried val of york said:
Hi Laura
Oh dear yes I do. It's because I have fractured my middle right finger (it must be weak after original fracture back in 0ct14). It's quite swollen and I know it will take about 6 wks to calm down again. Talk about bad timing. I have syringed fed Max with some Supreme Science Recovery Plus from a packet left over from his previous visit to vet. It's all gone now so I will mix some Critical Care later. I am feeding him water by hand from the bottle to make sure he is getting some. He is pooping still so that is reassuring. I have had him on my knee for about a hour. No sign of wee but I then put him on some fresh newspaper and puppy liners in the bath and he weed straight away. I am seeing Kyle tomorrow at 8.30 am as Mark isn't available tomorrow or Friday for new appointments. Its a shame I couldn't see Mark but I feel Max needs to be examined urgently. I am hoping it is not a tumour but I am afraid the signs look bad.
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Sorry you are having such a tough time - I have had to syringe feed one handed a while ago (long story, blended my hand) and it is not easy! You are right to see Kyle if you are worried and I am absolutely sure that he will talk it over with Mark, whatever they find or don't find - ask him to if you want to be reassured. Lots of vibes for Max.
 
Yikes - more complicated maths late evening....OK here goes......But would be helpful to have Max's current weight please! Without it I am going to have to be very algebraiac!

Frussol: 40mg/5ml = 8mg/ml. (40/5 = 8) ie 8mg of active drug in 1ml of medicine.

Dose for piggies can vary between 2-10mg/kg twice daily. I can;t see a weight for Max in your thread so I'm going to assume for now he is a 1kg piggie.

So a1kg piggie should have a dose of between 2mg/kg (= 0.25ml of your medicine solution) to 10mg/kg frussol (1.25ml of your medicine) . (2/8 x 1.....to 10/8 x 1 = 0.25 to 1.2ml)


At 0.5ml, Max is being given 4mg active drug in total. (8mg/ml /0,5ml = 4mg) For a 1kg pig or above, this is a low dose to "kick-start" removing fluid. We would normally would opt for 8-10mg/kg for 2 days, and reduce by 2mg/kg every 2 days over the space of a week.

However if he is <1kg pig then his actual dose of active drug (in mg/kg) can be calculated as follows:

(Max's actual weight in g x 4)/1000 = yyyy mg/kg and it may be OK


For baytril: again I need his weight.
2.5% baytril = 25mg/ml.
0.3ml of this solution = 8mg approx.
Rabbit dose is 10-30mg/kg (rat is 5-10mg/kg).
For 1kg pig, the dose should therefore be between 0.4 and 1.2ml at rabbit dose and 0.2-0.4ml at rat dose. Sounds like you are getting rat dose which may be too low.

Please provide his current weight so I can make a more intelligible evaluation of his current meds.

I'm now going to go back and read the whole thread for a more holistic overview of his current condition - bear with me please...
x
 
Hi @Pebble sorry to have to get the grey cells going but you have said you are a late night person
I have just weighed Max he is slightly over 1kg. Probably a lot of that will be fluid as he is not weeing as he should be. But I have been monitoring him most of the evening and there has been a couple of wees.
 
OK -having read through the whole thread it sounds like you are going through the classic situation for a piggie slave with a piggie who has developed a URI leading to pneumonia and now has the associated problems in terms of reduced poo output/gut motility etc.

This is not unusual - and in fact is part and parcel of having a sick pig.

The good news is that your vet is clearly cavy-savvy enough to diagnose and prescribe a diuretic (frussol) for what they must consider to be pneumonia. And they have also prescribed baytril as abx to kill the offending bugs.
However if Max weighs 1kg or above, then from my above calculations, they may have been too cautious in their dosages to achieve the proper effect. That needs to ne explored with your vet

As far as guts are concerned - any poorly piggie will reduce food intake and develop gut problems = both vet and owner needs to recognise that abx are not the only thing that the pig needs......and that proper supportive care in respect of syringe feeding, gut motility meds and possibly even rehydation may be required as part of a supportive package of treatemet required until the abx have started to effectively eliminate the bugs.

Once I know Max's weight - I can sort out the drug dosage for you.
However he really does need the "rest of the package" including syringe feeding, gut motility meds and anything else your vet deems appropairte

It is very possible for piggies to recover from this.....I can personally vouch for several of my own

Keep going.....you are doing the best for Max. Pm if you want a chat on the phone.
x
 
Pebble said:
At 0.5ml, Max is being given 4mg active drug in total. (8mg/ml /0,5ml = 4mg) For a 1kg pig or above, this is a low dose to "kick-start" removing fluid. We would normally would opt for 8-10mg/kg for 2 days, and reduce by 2mg/kg every 2 days over the space of a week.


x
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Sorry to leap in amongst the maths which is always likely to go wrong but he is getting 0.5ml x 2 per day so isn't he getting 8mg per day which is in line with expectations?
Same with baytril - twice a day.
 
I am impressed with all these calculations at this time of night. I feel boggled just reading them. I agree that Max is definitely in with a chance if he has got this far. I think a gut stimulant and step up the syringe feeding to keep his strength up until the antibiotics kick in. Well done Val for being a great piggy carer x
 
I do apologise - and thank you for alerting me to my error ...

I quoted the "formulary dosages" that are meant to be given 2x daily...but I didn;t make that clear.

So my previous calcaultions are for one dose - that needs to be given twice daily.
My apologies....I will take better care in future.
x
 
Thanks @Pebble and @lauraboara for advanced maths so late on. And thanks again @pig in the city for support. I still have young Max by my side giving him syringe feed and water. I'll be leaving at about 7.30 am to get through York to Surgery for 8.30 am. I will ask the vet about the strength and number of medicine treatments.
 
The vet couldn't find any blockage so he just said he's weeing less and small poops because of not eating and drinking as he normally would. The vet advised me to continue with the current medication levels for another week and come back for a review next week. Max was fairly lively at the vets but has since become subdued. He has refused his syringe feeding.but I have managed to get some down him. The vet indicated it is not going to be a quick recovery for Max but I should look for small improvement daily.He said the Frusol was the maximum strength Max required and the Baytril was the most suitable anti biotic.
 
Well I left Max for a couple of hours to let him relax after the vets and then the syringe feed. I noticed he had hardly moved in the C and C run so I picked him up. There was a bundeo of miniature poops in his rump. When I pulled at them they came out like a string of Christmas lights. I thought they were linked by straw but when I put my glasses on it was a small membrane type thing connecting the string of poops, Has anyone every encountered this and can anyone give me an explanation.
 
Yes I have seen this in poorly pigs - it is just more symptoms of his gut not working that well at the mo and linking substance is likely to be mucous. He just needs to keep eating and then the poos will become more normal. The weird poos today are likely to link to poor eating quite a few hours ago and yesterday. How much syringe feed is he managing to take on board? Come on Max.
 
Thanks for replying Laura. I am having a nervous breakdown at this end. I had taken photos on my phone but have no idea how to get the photos from the phone to my lap top and then on to the forum.
Max has not eaten much syringe food. I have given him some grass. But he has only just started to have an interest in grass again today. I have mixed some critical care at midday today but what hasn't been eaten has gone like sludge. Can I add some more warm water to this and try feeding Max again or should I make it up fresh.?
 
worried val of york said:
Thanks for replying Laura. I am having a nervous breakdown at this end. I had taken photos on my phone but have no idea how to get the photos from the phone to my lap top and then on to the forum.
Max has not eaten much syringe food. I have given him some grass. But he has only just started to have an interest in grass again today. I have mixed some critical care at midday today but what hasn't been eaten has gone like sludge. Can I add some more warm water to this and try feeding Max again or should I make it up fresh.?
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Well try and hang onto the good news that he does have an interest in grass today - that is a really good sign. I would say you can refresh the critical care - I think you can keep it a few hours - I have popped made up mixture in the fridge for a while. Is he interested in posh hay or any herbs? Mine love fennel fronds when they are poorly. And make sure you are having breaks and eating yourself Val - he needs you to keep going too ! x
 
Hi Laura - I got him Burgess Excel Timothy Hay with Dandelion and Marigold Herbage, Woodands Herby Harvest, Green Oat Hay, Dust Free Hay and Tesco's Meadow Hay. So far not really interested.
I am off to Tescos later on can you recommend any veg that is suitable for a convalescing guinea pig
Edit:- I have just re read your thread Fennell Fronds. Well I will try them they do sound posh so hope he will try them.
.
 
worried val of york said:
Thanks for replying Laura. I am having a nervous breakdown at this end. I had taken photos on my phone but have no idea how to get the photos from the phone to my lap top and then on to the forum.
Max has not eaten much syringe food. I have given him some grass. But he has only just started to have an interest in grass again today. I have mixed some critical care at midday today but what hasn't been eaten has gone like sludge. Can I add some more warm water to this and try feeding Max again or should I make it up fresh.?
Click to expand...

I would make it up fresh. The poos are typical for a digestive system that is not working properly. Keep feeding him little but often. Ill piggies seem to prefer fresh and still slightly warm water (made with boiled and cooling water). You can try to "spice" the recovery food with pellets, ready grass dust etc...

I am ever so sorry that you are struggling so badly. It can totally wear you down. :(

HUGS
 
Thanks @Wiebke It's amazing how a sick guinea pig can effect you. It can really wipe you out worrying about them and not having a good nights rest. But I will happily go through it if he recovers. To top it all I am selling my house and got a phone call today as my buyers are wanting a date to move!
 
worried val of york said:
Thanks @Wiebke It's amazing how a sick guinea pig can effect you. It can really wipe you out worrying about them and not having a good nights rest. But I will happily go through it if he recovers. To top it all I am selling my house and got a phone call today as my buyers are wanting a date to move!
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OUCH! It always happens at the worst time, doesn't it? I really feel for you! Hang on in there; it will work itself out somehow.
 
I had a message last night my horse had a poorly eye, and I stood there thinking for god sake! I can cope with one needy pet, but not two....
Is he taking his meds ok? I'm finding bonbon is spitting it out, but is otherwise taking the fibre plex ok. Fussy monkey!
 
worried val of york said:
Thanks @Wiebke It's amazing how a sick guinea pig can effect you. It can really wipe you out worrying about them and not having a good nights rest. But I will happily go through it if he recovers. To top it all I am selling my house and got a phone call today as my buyers are wanting a date to move!
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I know that feeling so well, and right now I feel my whole life is revolving round a never ending cycle of syringe feeding and medicating. However, as I am sat here, I can see Betty @Carina tucking into some broccoli, and watching them make steps towards recovery gives you the energy to carry on
 
Did the vet have any thoughts on gut motility meds (emeprid/zantac/cisapride)? Tiny poos held together by dried stringy mucus are indicative of issues with gut motility owing to insufficient food intake....I woiuld be aiming at this stage to try and get 20-30ml down him every 4 hours....if he is not taking this much in then I think you may need to revisit the vets for motility mes to keep him going until he starts to eat more for himself.
x.
 
I take my hat off to @furryfriends (TEAS) dealing with sick guinea pigs must be one of the hardest things to do.
I am having real difficulty getting Max to take syringe. His breathing is laboured.
@Pebble - no the vet did not mention anything to help his gut mobility even though I said he wasn't doing many poos. He just said it was because he wasn't eating much. I wish I had thought about a gut stimulant whilst I was at vets. But I am getting sleep deprived now. I am going to have another go at syringe feeding.
edit : the vet did say Max's eyes were swollen which indicated he was in pain. But he did not mention pain relief medication. I will contact vet again tomorrow.
 
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