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My Lilly has a chest infection

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Danii

Danii

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I'm really worried, my vet told me that the infection does kill a lot of guinea pigs. She's only 2 years old, and is the friendliest guinea pig I've ever had. I don't want to lose her.

Her chest has been rattling for a while. I was overseas for just over 6 weeks and my friend looking after them noticed this and took her to the vet. She was put on baytril and doxy antibiotics. I got back at the start of August, and got more baytril from the vet to continue her treatment. She's been on it a week now, at a dose of 0.4ml, but I haven't seen any improvement - her breathing has become more gasping, not such a click in her chest but wheezing, and blowing stuff out of her nostrils.

As of yesterday, I'm not sure but I think she may been going downhill. She doesn't seem as much herself as she has been otherwise.

Is there anything else you can do, aside from the baytril, to help guinea pigs get over such an infection? I just want to give her the best chance I can, as she's such a special little fighter.
 
thats what my Pixies pigs going through at the moment :( i dont have her so I'm not sure what shes getting etc etc but i hope your little piggie makes a speedy recovery! oh and Pixies 2 as well it took her 4 days to pick up after starting antibiotics xx
 
I dont have any advice I just wanted to say good luck to both of your poor piggies! I'm sure they will pull through soon!
xx
 
oh poor you, i went through this in June, i really feel for you. I got Avipro probiotic for mine as he was on Baytril for so long. I hope piggy is ok soon x
 
also, do a forum search on URI and read as much info as you can, i lost my dear boy, but he had an underlying heart problem, i wish you lots of luck, its horrible when you nurse them and just lose them at the end :(
 
I'm really sorry to hear that your little piggy is so unwell. She really does sound very poorly.

URIs (upper respiratory infections) and pneumonia can unfortunately be very serious in guinea pigs, as your Vet pointed out, but it is sometimes possible to save piggies with these problems so please don't lose all hope.

I'm not an expert and don't know how best to advise you but I have been through this myself so I can empathise. Hopefully someone more knowledgable will come along soon but, in the meantime, perhaps this recent thread might be worth reading in case something strikes a chord with you and your piggy. Unfortunately this poor piggy didn't make it but the circumstances may not necessarily have been the same as with you and your piggy. (Incidentally, please be sure to read right to the end of my pneumonia thread, which Laura-CCC4 links to, as an Australian member posted details of how she successfully treated her pig with pneumonia):

http://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=53864

Is your piggy eating and drinking normally? As someone else mentioned, if you're not already doing so, I would definitely try to give probiotics while she is on antibiotics. Not sure how readily available these are in Oz but they can really combat the harsh effect of the Baytril, which can upset tummies and affect appetite too. This obviously won't cure all her problems but could help a bit.

With regard to the breathing problems, obviously the apparent infection is the major thing to deal with (and I hope others can advise on best meds for that) but you may be able to ease symptoms a bit with olbas oil or Vicks vapour rub, if you have those. Placing some on a tissue or in a bowl of hot water outside the cage can help ease breathing - obviously in a safe place where piggies can't get to it, but still smell it.

I've also heard of people giving Bisolvon to pigs with breathing issues but am not sure if it'd be good to give in your case, so please check first.

Best of luck x
 
Susan, you've given some great advice, really not much I can add to that. Thanks for linking to the recent pneumonia thread, it's full of info (and more links!).

Danii, I am sorry to hear your piggie is so unwell. Please do have a read of the thread Susan (missy) linked you too and the links included in that thread.

I would be inclined to see the vet again and discuss having her checked for a heart problem; stethoscope can sometimes pick up on fluid in the lungs/around the heart, or arrhythmias, x-rays can sometimes pick up on an enlarged heart, ultrasound can sometimes identify specific problems - but a trial of heart meds can often 'diagnose' a problem through the responses to the meds.

If the vet has any reason to suspect fluid in the lungs or around the heart, or on the flip side believes they have run out of options, a diuretic would be worth trying. The generic drug name of the most common diuretic is furosemide; brand names include Lasix, Frusemide, Frusol and Dimazon.

How is her eating - is she managing to eat for herself?
 
Thank you so much everyone, your advice and thoughts mean so much right now.

I called my vet again today (well yesterday, it's 3am!) and since Lily hadn't gone downhill but rather hadn't improved drastically, she said to keep a close eye on her and bring in tomorrow if I think I need to.

Last night she was eating and drinking so much it was actually starting to drive me crazy, because I've got her next to my bed! She was bright and chirpy all day, spent some time outside with her friends because it was a warm day, and then I took her back inside.

So apart from the fact she feels too skinny, I did feel confident that she wasn't going downhill. But then around 10pm I noticed she was resting her head on the food bowl awkwardly, I moved her and she felt limp, and flopped to the side though she was trying to fight me as usual - always determined to do what she wants!

So I freaked out, picked her up, she felt all over the place and her breathing sounded more clogged up. She kept leaning to the one side, but got better on her feet after a while and turned the shower on hot and let her breathe the steam in for a while - it seemed to ease it. I gave her the Baytril and by then she seemed back to how she'd been previously, so I gave her some treats which she's been nibbling on.

Have put something similar to Vicks vapour rub (thanks Missy) on tissues near her, and she's standing up fine at the moment, so I've no idea what's going on :(

Laura-CCC4 said:
How is her eating - is she managing to eat for herself?
Click to expand...
Yes to both, and drinking, but has still lost weight.


Am reading the thread you guys linked me to now, I'm scared to go to sleep in case she needs me.
 
Too hard, I hate when animals are ill and it's so hard to know what to do :(
 
Do you know how much Lilly weighs at the moment Danii? An adult piggie is usually given 0.2ml 2x daily of Sudafed Expectorant, given orally by syringe - but if the pig is underweight I usually adjust the dose.

It is great she is eating properly, this does sound fairly similar to the thread you were directed to so hopefully some of the information in those threads helps.
 
It does sound similar, especially that this has been going on so long... it's so late and I'm upset so having a bit of trouble processing all the information, trying to copy and paste the relevant bits. I want to be able to bring it up with the vet tomorrow to give her the best chance

if it's an infection, wouldn't some of her cage mates be ill as well? She lives with four other girls who are all perfectly healthy, and I'm keeping her inside with one of her friends as she wasn't coping with being alone very well. So I'm confused about that.

And with an infection, wouldn't she be showing some sign of change with the Baytril?

My small scale I usually use for them is broken, so I've been having to weigh myself with and without her in my arms. According to that, she was approximately 1.1kg (I'd say a bit more, probably) and is now more around the 1kg mark if not less. So a reduced dose would be best? I thought it came in tablet form but I'm guessing you're talking about the liquid?



The only thing that makes me feel any better is that her eyes are still bright
 
Bright eyes are a good sign, I agree.

It is late here now and I do have to head off, but if I can get online in time before you go to the vets tomorrow, I will put together everything that I feel is relevent and could help you with Lilly.

No worries about reducing the dose, although it's not a completely accurate weight, for a pig weighing above 800g I usually give the full adult dose, 0.2ml 2x daily.
It's not the tablets or capsules you want, the Sudafed Expectorant is liquid, an orange and white labelled bottle. Active ingredient is pseudoephedrine hydrochloride. Link to the correct product below to show you the one I mean: http://www.expresschemist.co.uk/product_2370_non-drowsy-sudafed-expectorant-100ml.html
 
Thanks guys, just finished my classes and off to the vet with Lily now. She's the same, just the same. I've never had a guinea pig who stayed so much the same like this so it just seems strange to me.

Fingers crossed.
 
Hi,

My vets don't use Baytril for chest infections/pneumonia they give injections of teramicine (sp) it normally takes about 3 jabs 2/3 days apart.

Might be worth asking your vet what she/he thinks.

This has worked for me

Maureen
 
Terrimycin also worked for my girl Panda when she had a persistant chest problem it took three jabs over 9 days for the illness to be cured completely.
 
Thanks for the suggestion, good to know there's other options.

Saw the vet and she listened to her chest, so did I, and she sounds so full of fluid. The wheezing is frightening. Questioned whether this could be effecting her heart - mistakenly, when I should have asked if this could be caused by her heart. She said she didn't think it was effecting her heart.

Turns out my scale is well out, she's only 535g. Should have figured that, it changes my weight every time I weigh myself anyway. Mum is buying a new kitchen scale to weight her with tomorrow. Along with the 0.4 Baytril twice/day she's put her on Doxycycline, 0.2mg twice/day. Also Nuelin (syrup) twice a day. I forgot the dosage, but gave her just under 0.5mg because the human dosage for children is 1mg/kg of body weight. She said to give the new meds around 4-5 days, and to see how they go then. If she worsens, to call and we'll try something else, but if no change (no worsening, and hopefully more weight on her) to continue the treatment.

I have a nebuliser now and she told me to use it twice a day at least. I have treated her twice (saline) for 10 minutes tonight. She seems to tolerate it well. You can't nebulise them too often, can you?

In the car to the vets I wrapped her in a towel and she was full of beans, trying to worm her way out of it and trying to eat my jumper in protest. After the nebuliser tonight she was walking around, eating and drinking, and even fighting over grass with her cage mate.

Do you think I should call and ask for a diuretic over waiting? Are they used in pneumonia treatment even if a heart problem as the cause is not suspected?

Mum and I went to the pharmacy to get Sudafed Expectorant, but apparently it has actually been discontinued - pulled off the shelves not so long ago? The lady wrote down something similar and the ingredients, mum has it though so I'll tell you tomorrow morning and ask your opinions on it. I don't know if it would be safe with the Nuelin, though.

She's having another strange "episode" like the one I mentioned earlier. Where she leans her head on the food bowl and goes all floppy, appears suddenly weak and her breathing becomes more heavily laboured.

I've been nursing her through it the past hour, unsure of what to actually do! She felt a bit cold so I put my heater on and put her on a heat pad for a while, rubbed her chest and kept her upright if she leaned. I gave her a quick 5min nebulise treatment, nursed her some more to warm her up, heat pad, rubbing, another 5min nebulise, and had her sniff (against her will! haha) the olba oil.

She seems to be coming around now, just as she did yesterday. Is this typical of pneumonia? Spoke to my friend who was caring for them and worked out this has been going on since at least mid-july when I was overseas, so she's been fighting this a while now (was treated with the baytril and doxy by my friend).
 
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oh heck, that sounds like a lot of work, what a lucky girl she is having * to nurse her, hang in there Lilly x>>
 
Danii I haven't forgotten you, should have got back to you earlier as I said but got lost in the day, so for now I'll just respond to your last post and get onto things tomorrow for you. Promise.

Back on topic, it is sounding more positive in the sense of the vet doing more, willing to try more things, thank goodness for that. Doxycycline, I have heard can be helpful in some cases with guinea pigs, so worth a shot.

Nuelin syrup, I have never come across and have never heard of the active ingredient in it. From the info on this webpage (http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcmed.nsf/pages/iacneusy/$File/iacneusy.pdf) it says it causes the muscle lining of the airways to relax, how helpful this would be, a) in general and b) when a cardiac issue could be suspected as the cause, I honestly cannot say - I would appreciate if you did keep us up to date with her condition though, especially if she responds to the Nuelin. Please do check the dosage with the vet again though, I think it may need adjusting; can't be sure but I think weight isn't the only factor to account for when using human medicines on guinea pigs.

Nebuliser, again it is not something I have had to deal with but this topic might help you (and not just with the nebuliser, but with the whole situation as well):
http://www.guinealynx.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=56561

The 'episodes' you describe really do concern me a great deal though, this is one big reason I suspect heart, to be apparently collapsing with exhaustion at the effort she's having to make - typically when trying to eat, very common with heart pigs - it's really not right. I know it is worrying you, and it doesn't help you to know that it's worrying me...but it could be a big indicator to her condition and how well she's really doing. The more often this happens, the longer she takes to come round, the worse her condition and so the more urgent it becomes.

Through all this you are doing a great job Danii, trying to help her in as many ways as possible, keep up the fab work, I hope you are able to get her condition stabilised and improving for both your sakes. Keep your chin up, you're doing fine. xx
 
Thanks Laura, and that's okay - life gets on top of us all :)

I hadn't heard of Nuelin syrup either, but my friend who has rats and has had bad luck with respiratory issues and has found it helpful - I had to pick it up from her, as she had the vet's supply.

It's worrying me, these "episodes". She collapsed, if I can describe it as that, again just after I thought she was coming out of it. I nursed her for however long it was since my last post, almost fell asleep with her on my lap because I haven't really slept in two nights... and the best way I can describe it is like an animal coming back from the dead. Literally.

She's always been a really active guinea pig, no health problems, but it could still be her heart? Come to think of it, her mum actually died from something similar minus the collapsing. Lost a lot of weight, stopped eating, and that was that...

She's a good vet, I've only just had contact with her but my friend who looked after them while I was away, keeps lots of rats and other little animals, and she's been brilliant at trying new things.

How do I explain that I'm convinced it's her heart, at least combined with pneumonia perhaps? When pneumonia seems the most obvious cause, because I'm honestly confused - the only thing I know is it seems really unusual, and I'm sure a guinea pig would have been dead long ago if they'd had rattly breathing for months now!
 
I'm also glad to hear that your Vet is open-minded and willing to explore different options. It sounds like she may perhaps be open to the suggestion that heart problems could be behind Lilly's episodes, if you broach that subject. (Although I fully appreciate that you'll need to arm yourself with something to back yourself up, as the Vet may not have diagnosed heart conditions in a guinea before.) From what I've learned on this forum, it really does sound like it's not unusual for heart problems to be misdiagnosed as pneumonia etc.

Out of interest, did the Vet offer any explanation for the increasingly frequent "episodes", when Lilly appears to be almost lifeless? I'm not familiar with the meds you're using - do any of them have a diuretic effect? Just wondering how the fluid is expected to disappear, something which I know you're also rightly concerned about.

I'm no expert and I don't really know what to say except that Laura's advice is always brilliant and you're doing such an amazing job of caring for Lilly, who you clearly love very much and are battling to help.

Still hoping that an effective treatment can be found soon. Hang in there, both of you x
 
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Laura-CCC4 said:
It's not the tablets or capsules you want, the Sudafed Expectorant is liquid, an orange and white labelled bottle. Active ingredient is pseudoephedrine hydrochloride. Link to the correct product below to show you the one I mean: http://www.expresschemist.co.uk/product_2370_non-drowsy-sudafed-expectorant-100ml.html
Click to expand...

Laura,

I've noticed that Sudafed Expectorant also contains another active ingredient called Guaifenesin. Bearing in mind that Sudafed Expectorant seems to be difficult to get hold of in Oz, I'm just wondering if Guaifenesin is also another useful ingredient to look out for, when trying to find an alternative product.

From what I can tell, Guaifenesin seems to be the cough expectorant element of this particular Sudafed product, whereas the Pseudoephedrine Hydrochloride is classed as a decongestant. Are they both equally beneficial here? Not trying to split hairs, just genuinely curious. Thanks x
 
Danii, how is Lilly doing?

I have some info for you here now. With regards to convincing the vet, write everything down - either print off this thread for her to read through, so she can see what you are going through with Lilly, or type it all up. Every symptom, what meds have been tried - including dosage and duration of treatment. Then print out some basic information, including symptoms, of pneumonia, and of heart problems. If it helps, I can put that together for you.

Personally I do still suspect heart problem, especially after you posted that he is full of fluid. Many vets are of the view that if the heart sounds fine then it is usually ok. Myself, I don't believe this, I believe that an xray should be carried out to check for any visual signs, and even if the x-ray appears quite normal, if the symptoms are convincing enough, then a trial of heart medication be started. The response to the heart meds would determine if you're on the right track, I will explain more about this in a tick.

Now, convincing vets to try heart meds, it really does depend how willing your vet is to listen, research and try - and if they feel a heart problem is a possibility. There are three specific heart medications, plus the diuretic which can be given longer term if fluid buildup is an issue.

The basic heart medications are:

- Enalapril (Enacard) or Benazepril (Lotensin or Fortekor) - both are ACE Inhibitors, a very basic idea to how they work is that they help to lower the blood pressure, which means the heart is not having to work quite as hard to pump blood around the body.

- Pimobendan (Vetmedin) - this is an Inodilator and can help deal with the specific problem of an arrhythmia. If an arrhythmia is picked up on, or the enalapril/benazepril has an effect but doesn't get the pig quite back on its feet, then pimobendan can be added to the mix. It has been used very successfully by the Guinea Lynx folks, it is not often used here in UK as yet.

If a heart condition is suspected but the specific problem unknown, the pig will typically be put onto enalapril or benazepril, along with the diuretic if fluid buildup is identified. It generally takes a few days to notice any real difference, the improvements do happen quite quickly although are very subtle initially. I would expect to see some difference, some easing of symptoms, within two weeks, if the medication is doing anything to help the pig (i.e. treating a heart problem).

A trial of heart medication can be done without running any tests or knowing exactly what the particular heart defect is, and depending on the response of the pig the medication can be adjusted to the minimum effective dose or, if necessary, the addition of pimobendan. In some cases, pigs can be taken off the diuretic once they have settled on the heart medication, but some are on a low dose for life.

You may also find this link interesting to read Danii, Peter Gurney's experiences on heart problems: http://www.oginet.com/pgurney/heartproblems.htm

Susan, it's the decongestant ingredient - pseudoephedrine hydrochloride - that helps in some cases of respiratory infection/congestion, as mentioned by Peter Gurney in Piggy Potions.
 
It's a worry that Danii hasn't posted for a while. I've also been wondering how Lilly is and hoping that everything is ok x

Laura, I'm sure many will find that straightforward summary guide to heart meds very useful indeed, myself included. (Thank you)


Laura-CCC4 said:
Susan, it's the decongestant ingredient - pseudoephedrine hydrochloride - that helps in some cases of respiratory infection/congestion, as mentioned by Peter Gurney in Piggy Potions.
Click to expand...

That's a shame. You're probably already aware (but I've just discovered) that pseudoephedrine-based products are banned from sale (over the counter) in some countries. I gather it's a particularly high profile subject in Australia and NZ, as well as some states in the US, amongst other places. I'm not sure if there's a total ban in Australia right now, but a ban has apparently been widely debated and presumably explains why Danii found that Sudafed had been withdrawn from sale.

Do you know of any suitable alternatives to Sudafed? I understand that Sudafed isn't actually designed for use in animals anyway, and I'm not advocating that Vets shouldn't be consulted, but I appreciate that plenty of people use Sudafed when awaiting Vet treatment etc, as Peter Gurney is widely recognised (within the piggy community, CCT, Rodentologists and some Vets etc) as a credible source re advice on treating guinea pigs.
 
I didn't know that about the pseudoephedrine based products were banned from sale in some countries, thanks for pointing that out.

The closest veterinary medicine I can think of as an alternative to Sudafed Expectorant, is Bisolvon. I don't know of an OTC human alternative to Sudafed though.
 
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