• Discussions taking place within this forum are intended for the purpose of assisting you in discussing options with your vet. Any other use of advice given here is done so at your risk, is solely your responsibility and not that of this forum or its owner. Before posting it is your responsibility you abide by this Statement

Mystery Illness Affecting My Piggies

Status
Not open for further replies.
Liane

Liane

Teenage Guinea Pig
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
984
Reaction score
815
Points
510
A mystery illness seems to be affecting my piggies - three so far have had the same unusual pattern of symptoms:

  1. I notice very gradual weight lost over a period of months
  2. They go to the vet, but they can't find anything wrong other than weight loss
  3. The weight loss speeds up
  4. They develop diarrhoea and /or incontinence
  5. Other health issues begin to appear (mostly likely due to compromised immune system)
  6. They go to sleep and never wake up
My first piggy, Freddie began exhibiting gradual weight loss just over a year before he died. Nelson, his cagemate (or soulmate, they were very close) started showing signs of ill health a few weeks after Freddie died. Within eight months, he too had passed away.

Now, six months on, another piggy, Ace - who never came into contact with Freddie or Nelson - has began showing the same symptoms. We noticed a very slight decrease in weight, took her to the vets, but he couldn't find anything wrong other than she had had mites about three months before; he gave her an injection to help with the mites although we suspect they'd already been cleared by the spot on treatments but the hair was taking a while to regrow.

Now, Ace has developed incontinence and has very small, icky, misshapen poop. She still eats, though less enthusiastically so I am also hand-feeding her. I've been giving all the pigs probiotics, I've not given Ace any veggies for three days in an effort to solidify her poops, I've increased hay, I've been bathing her to keep her clean. I am doing everything I can for Ace, but we don't know what is causing it so we don't know how to treat it, or how to prevent the others from falling ill as well. Our vet can only suggest different medicines to try, but we don't know what we're dealing with :(
 
I'm really sorry for your losses :( I am sure someone more knowledgeable will be along to help soon, but can I ask if the vet has taken fecal or blood samples from Ace ?
 
Poppy'sMum said:
I'm really sorry for your losses :( I am sure someone more knowledgeable will be along to help soon, but can I ask if the vet has taken fecal or blood samples from Ace ?
Click to expand...

Blood samples have been mentioned before, but not faecal samples (although I was reading on guinealynx that they can test for certain illnesses in their poop). The vet said they were reluctant to do blood tests as they would need to go either into the heart, or very close to the heart (either way i was alarmed) but it was something to consider if we went for an x ray as they could be done at the same time.

How exactly is blood taken from piggies? Because the mentioning of the risk to the heart scared me and it seemed very drastic?
 
I was thinking of faecal samples too, maybe that should be your first step. I think it is difficult to get blood from a pig but more experienced vets will be used to doing it, I may be wrong but think it would involve an anaesthetic.

I am going to throw an idea out here that not everyone will agree with but have your pigs ever had any type of fungal? Candidiasis (an overload of Candida in the gut) can cause both weight loss and lots of other symptoms. It can be treated with Itrafungol or Nystatin. Humans can get it too.
 
helen105281 said:
I was thinking of faecal samples too, maybe that should be your first step. I think it is difficult to get blood from a pig but more experienced vets will be used to doing it, I may be wrong but think it would involve an anaesthetic.

I am going to throw an idea out here that not everyone will agree with but have your pigs ever had any type of fungal? Candidiasis (an overload of Candida in the gut) can cause both weight loss and lots of other symptoms. It can be treated with Itrafungol or Nystatin. Humans can get it too.
Click to expand...

Ace had a fungal infection on her ears a few years ago, but Freddie & Nelson have never had fungal (to my knowledge - Nelson's history was unknown when we adopted him aged 2ish).

So if I were to say 'can you run tests on a faecal sample' would they know what to test for, or would I need to specify? I've been looking at 'faecal float', 'gram staining' and cultures, are they specific enough? I've seen four different vets with varying degrees of experience with piggies, and I'm never sure how much they already know, and I always feel out of my depth at the vets.

If she were to have antibiotics, couldn't that potentially make her diarrhoea worse? Do the benefits outweigh the side effects? Are there alternatives? Ace has never been a large piggie, and is currently 835g. She really can't afford to lose more weight :(
 
I think it needs to be a specific antibiotic that is appropriate for what they find in the test, you would need to give probiotics though.

I have not had a faecal float, gram staining or culture done though I was going to for Madeline. (A culture would very rarely show up any Candida issues) I think you should go down this route first though especially as she has diarrhoea.

How much weight has she lost over what period?

Where abouts are you?

Is she peeing ok?
 
I've been giving her probiotics mixed with critial care (which she is taking surprisingly well). I've also been adding it to water and food.

She has lost roughly 150g over a four month period - doesn't sound like a lot, but this is how it started with Freddie and Nelson, and they were much bigger than Ace, who has always been my smallest piggy.

I live in Buckinghamshire, UK.

She is peeing fine as far as I can tell - she actually jumped from my arms onto the sofa and peed on it this evening which wasn't appreciated. But she didn't sound in pain and there as no blood or sludge. You can really tell she is having trouble pooping though, and I keep having to wipe her bottom otherwise it gets stuck to her hair. She also started going bald on Wednesday/Thursday because she keeps either peeing on herself, or peeing and not moving (which seems likely, she's not herself at all). I've been bathing it and applying soothing cream to the bits that look sore. The urine scald has cleared up, but the hair remaining is very discoloured.
 
It does sound to be like she may have some kind of bug or infection. I recommend giving her Dioralyte while she has diarrhoea if you aren't already as it will replace any lost electrolytes. My Ellie recently had a urine infection but she also had diarrhoea, lost weight, and had urine scald. We were giving her bum baths twice a day. A course of Septrin luckily cleared it up though we did get her scanned to be on the safe side. I really do think a faecal float etc should be done.
 
helen105281 said:
It does sound to be like she may have some kind of bug or infection. I recommend giving her Dioralyte while she has diarrhoea if you aren't already as it will replace any lost electrolytes. My Ellie recently had a urine infection but she also had diarrhoea, lost weight, and had urine scald. We were giving her bum baths twice a day. A course of Septrin luckily cleared it up though we did get her scanned to be on the safe side. I really do think a faecal float etc should be done.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for all your help. I was in tears earlier, I just can't face losing another piggy so soon, and in such a horrible way.

How much Dioralyte should I give her? It is the stuff humans take?
 
You're welcome, others may come on with more information too. You can give it little and often throughout the day, it is the human version and they can have plain or flavoured though mine prefer the plain one. Nigel was addicted to it bless him.
 
Sorry, another question: is beneflora safe for piggies? I won't be able to get any dioralyte until tomorrow.
 
I'm really not sure, I wouldn't risk it, the Dioralyte can wait until tomorrow.
 
I'm sorry she is so poorly :( I've had 2 fecal tests done on Petal, both times it included a fecal float test. I have a contact number for the place where the detailed tests are done, I would definitely recommend your vet uses them, it is based at Chester Zoo I think. If you haven't already done so I would start her on a probiotic as well. Petal tested positive for an overgrowth of yeast possibly caused by the antibiotics she has to have for her UTIs. Since using probiotics it has reduced the over growth significantly. Fecal tests will show up a lot of things, they check for parasites as well. Let me know if you want the contact details for your vet, I will pm them to you.

As Helen says they need to give her a whiff of gas to take a blood sample.
 
Liane said:
Blood samples have been mentioned before, but not faecal samples (although I was reading on guinealynx that they can test for certain illnesses in their poop). The vet said they were reluctant to do blood tests as they would need to go either into the heart, or very close to the heart (either way i was alarmed) but it was something to consider if we went for an x ray as they could be done at the same time.

How exactly is blood taken from piggies? Because the mentioning of the risk to the heart scared me and it seemed very drastic?
Click to expand...
It's not easy, when we suspected that Yoshi had an underactive thyroid the only way to be sure was blood tests and they have to draw it from the vena cava ( I think that was it - I'm sure someone will correct me if I've misrembered) which means that a G.A is required. I can understand the vet being reluctant as it's not as straight forward as it is with us humans and bigger animals. I hope things improve soon. x
 
Sadly in the UK, the only way vets are CURRENTLY able to take blood in order for the relevant diagnostic tests to be conducted on piggies is by withdrawing a sample forom the main vein close to the heart (vena cava) under anaesthetic. (In the US they seem to be able to run tests from claw clippings or leg vein samples. Sadly not so yet over this side of the water yet!)

This IS a very risky procedure....even my own experienced vet has "bottled out" on occasion after the first attempt to take blood failed on some of my pigs. And this is a vet who has successfully taken blood from many of my pigs including seriously ill heart pigs. My vet knows the limitations.

I will come back and address the rest of your post later but I have stuff to do atm.

x
 
Simon at Cat & Rabbit Care was able to get a blood sample by tying a tourniquet around a back leg when Fudge was ill.
 
My vet too will only take blood under anaesthetic. So I don't like this unless they are going under for something else at the same time eg x-ray.

Will urine tests show anything?

Regarding diet, can you give us a run down of what they eat?

At present I can't suggest anything else other that using a supplement such as Fibreplex which I use whenever one of mine is off colour.
 
I've given further thought to this overnight. I had a similar expereince of unexplained weight loss and illness running through my herd a few years back - in fact it is what caused me to find the forum abd also my current vets practice. Symptoms however did not include incontinence or diarrhoea and varied from pig to pig so we never really identified the cause but, given all the pigs were related, thought it may be a retroviral infection passed from mother to offspring causing some type of leukaemia/lymphoma.

However none of your pigs are related

First and foremost you may need to find a vet who is very good at diagnostics and who is used to taking blood from piggies - for this you may have to travel and I would suggest you "may" be looking for someone who is experienced in treating zoo animals and who is also prepared to send samples to eg Chester Zoo rather than necessarily just their normal routine lab they use.

I'm thinking here Molly Varga a Cheshire Pets, Marie Kubiak at Manor Vets Edgbaston, Rob Reynolds at Seers Croft Horsham, Neil Forbes at Great Western in Swindon...or if you can;t travel so widely then maybe try the Royal Vet College at Potters Bar or Amir at Broxbourne. I'm not sure which vet Poppy's Mum uses but their contact details and those of Chester Zoo lab maybe very helpful

This is how my vet approached my own pigs when I first went to them - and they didn't prescribe any antibiotics until the cultures had been done as antibioitics interfere with the cultures.

It MAY be that ACE has something different to your two boys..weight loss can be caused by a number of different things and is a reflection of the fact the pig isn;t eating (or in some cases drinking) enough. So given she has urinary issues then a urine test, if possible a urine culture and Xray to rule out stones/infection would be the first port of call.

However if we assume it is all the same thing, we are looking at the following options:
a) a transmissible infection present in the enivronment
b) some type of environmental exposure to a toxic substance or foodstuff

Given the diarrhoea, I would therefore also suggest faecal cultures as well as faecal floats. Not only would you be looking for yeast/fungal and intestinal parasites (eg Giardia, Eimeria, Cryptosporidium) but also bacteria such as Salmonella and Yersinia pseudotuberculosis. I am particularly thinking of Salmonella here as it follows a different course in piggies to humans. Many of these bugs are carried by birds and other animals, including rats and mice, so it is possible to come into contact with these via foodstuff or grass contaminated with faeces or urine

If nothing shows up, next step would have to be bloods - not just blood cell counts (will help identify if there is infection or leukaemia/lymphoma present and can indicate what type) and biochemistry for organ function but also serology for some of the bugs already mentioned and any others the vet may think appropriate.

I hope this is of some help - I'm going to put up a separate post about things to consider in terms of questions the vet might ask in order to helpnarrow down if there really is a link between your pigs and their illnesses.

x
 
Questions to consider as may help your vet narrow down/rule out possible causes and what to test for.

  • Do you have any other pets that share "space" - if so which (I'm thinking particularly cats,dogs and reptiles/amphibians/tortoises)
  • Are the pigs indoors, outdoors or outdoors in a shed?
  • Are they allowed to graze on a lawn?
  • Have you treated the lawn with any weed and feed or other type of treatment?
  • Where is their food/bedding kept?
  • Have you or your neighbours seen any signs of mice/rats? Are you aware of any bait being laid at any time?
  • Have you used flea spray in an area the pigs have contact with?
  • Do you get wood pigeons/red kites/slugs/snails in your garden or other regular wildlife such as foxes, badgers etc
  • Have your pigs had access to any vegetation such as houseplants, leeks, garlic, chives, buttercup, dock leaves, celandine, lilies or any other plants with bulbs or tuberous white roots?
  • Have they had access to grass/forage picked from a water meadow or roadside verge?
That's the main ones I can think of for now - based upon what my vet asked me - (I live next to a stream and rats are an issue so we firstly focused on the diseases carried by rats).

I'm very sorry you have lost your two boys - I do hope Ace can be diagnosed and treated.
x
 
  1. Firstly, thank you to everyone for your very detailed and helpful posts - I really appreciate you taking the time to help me & Ace!

Some answers to questions:

Housing
  • I have six piggies who live in three pairs, and two of those pairs share a run.
  • They have been living indoors since about September; their houses were fully cleaned out twice a week
  • I have been gradually introducing them to their outdoor houses over the past four weeks
  • They live in wooden houses with plastic bases, and hutch covers which can be zipped up
  • Hay etc is stored in our shed mainly, and we take a new bag out when its needed. It's a quality shed so dry etc
  • Hutches are cleaned out fully twice a week
  • Disinfectant it used
  • The hutches/indoor cages are pressure-washed and thoroughly cleaned about 4 times a year (twice for indoor)
Animals & Wildlife
  • I have two cats that have been in contact with the piggies.
  • There are a lot of cats in our area
  • We live next to a canal so there's a lot of ducks, pigeons etc that frequent the garden
  • We occasionally get frogs, although they tend to be brought back by the cats
  • We get a lot of slugs in the garden, but they seldom reach the hutches on the patio next to the house. Same for snails. I have on occasion found snails/slugs in their hutch/run. In slug season, I spend about 15 minutes each night picking out slugs and putting them in the green bin (shh...)
  • There are small mice - we had a dead one on our patio last week courtesy of the Cat
  • I've never seen any rats in the garden, and I've only ever seen one out the front in the 18 years I've lived here
  • I have seen/been told about only 5 mice 'incidents' in all the time I've lived here, 4 were because the cats brought them home
Environment
  • We live in front of a canal
  • The garden is enclosed with neighbours on all sides (none have pets)
  • Our lawn isn't treated with anything
  • We don't have any plants like lilies etc due to the cats
  • We have concrete based fences which were recently replaced - we used to get hedgehogs but not since re-doing the fence
  • The piggies do not graze on areas known to be used by the cats (eg. flower beds)

Food
  • The pigs have nuggets rather than mixed feed
  • Water bottles are cleaned & refilled every second day, or more frequently as required
  • They get a large pile of fresh hay every day, in a specific area for 'eating hay' as well as in their bed
  • I try and give them a varied, balanced diet.
  • In warmer months, they spend most of the day on the grass.
  • Food is stored inside (nuggets in bag/box, fresh stuff in their own drawer in the fridge)
  • I only pick grass/leaves from my own garden as I know we've not treated it with anything
Typical diet is a selection of...
  • chopped carrots
  • brocolli
  • curly kale
  • parsley
  • peppers
  • strawberries, blueberries, grapes, oranges, apples (treats)
  • cucumber (particularly in summer)
  • baby corn
  • mixed greens
  • turnip (a new one, not keen)
  • brussels
  • dandilion leaves
One of my piggies had a UTI last year so I try not to give them too much calcium.


It had occurred to me that something I am doing/giving them/not doing may be the cause, but I just can't work out what it could be.
 
Thanks for answers - I don't think you;re doing anything wrong and your piggies clearly have a lovely life with you!

IF....and I say IF... there is a link, then I think it's something they're ingesting/being exposed to on the grass and given the proximity of the canal/ducks/molluscs I would hope faecal float and culture will point you in the right direction. Add in Campylobacter and E caniculi (can cause incontinence and weight loss) to the list of possible bugs.

What disinfectant do you use please? some spores/cysts are not knocked out by normal disinfectants.
Where do you get your hay and nuggets from?

Simon Maddock at Cat and Rabbit in Northampton is back from holiday saturday if Ace can wait that long - if not I suggest you get your vet to send off fresh faecal samples for culture and microscopic analysis tomorrow morning (no point this afternoon as vets normally send off all their samples mid-day) as it could take up to a week for results to come through.

Back this evening

x
 
Pebble said:
Thanks for answers - I don't think you;re doing anything wrong and your piggies clearly have a lovely life with you!

IF....and I say IF... there is a link, then I think it's something they're ingesting/being exposed to on the grass and given the proximity of the canal/ducks/molluscs I would hope faecal float and culture will point you in the right direction. Add in Campylobacter and E caniculi (can cause incontinence and weight loss) to the list of possible bugs.

What disinfectant do you use please? some spores/cysts are not knocked out by normal disinfectants.
Where do you get your hay and nuggets from?

Simon Maddock at Cat and Rabbit in Northampton is back from holiday saturday if Ace can wait that long - if not I suggest you get your vet to send off fresh faecal samples for culture and microscopic analysis tomorrow morning (no point this afternoon as vets normally send off all their samples mid-day) as it could take up to a week for results to come through.

Back this evening

x
Click to expand...


I used Beaphar Deep Clean (small animals), or Johnson's Clean n' Safe if I can't get hold of the other stuff.

We get the hay & nuggets from Pets at Home, they have a better selection that the other local store. We had to stop buying hay from there for a few weeks as they had a problem with a batch of hay that was being packed damp/downright soaked. It was during this time that Ace got mites.

I'll see if I can get an appointment with Simon - I prefer him to my local vets, although I suppose they'll be okay for sending off the initial tests. I've been making copious notes so I am well prepared for her visit - thank you so much everyone! I'll update you with her progress as soon as possible :)
 
I think it would be worth you printing off all Pebble's questions to you, with your answers, plus all the other info she has given you, so you can give a copy to Simon. It really helps to make sure you are covering everything, as it is easy to forget to mention something when you are at an appointment.
 
Hi Liane
Been thinking on my journey 'oop norththis afternoon......the wasting/diarrhoea does lead towards some type of intestinal infection with Giardia or Salmonella being the most likely. However it's the incontinence that throws this off - which could be "standard" urinary problems such as a bladder infection or stone but is alsovery much a symptom of E caniculi. This is more common in rabbits and often associated with head-tilt as it attacks the nervous sytem and this would account for both the incontinence and the diarrhoea. The spore form is shed in the urine so mciscopic analysisof urine may be hlepful.

The good news is that many of the possible protozoan culprits I've suggested including E caniculi (and allegedly Giardia) can be treated with Panacur (Fenbendazole). Metronidazole may be needed if it's Giardia and other antibiotics may be more preferable if its eg Salmonella.

The sooner you can get the samples cultured/examined the sooner Ace can be put on treatment and I would suggest you discuss with Simon putting her straight onto Panacur after the samples have been collected

HTH
x.
 
Hi Liane I am sending details of the contact at Chester Zoo in a pm to you. If you can persuade your vet to use the Exotics lab there, it will do a very detailed fecal analysis for you. I've spoken to the lady that does the tests & Pebble herself after having the tests done on my piggy :) You need to print everything off that Pebble has asked/suggested & take that with you to the vet. The lab at Chester Zoo do far more detailed tests than a normal lab so don't let the vet try to put you off getting a sample sent there. The vet should give you a sterile container to obtain fresh poops in the morning that you can drop off at the vets so it can be sent straight away. Pop Ace in a container with some veggies & pray she does some ;) Good luck & hope you find out what it is x
 
Thank you!

No update as such, going to get some tests done, but here is a photo of Ace today after she had her critical care and dioralyte:

image_zps251548a8.jpeg

She took her critical care mixture very well, as expected. She wasn't as sure about the dioralyte, but managed to get a fair amount in her! She's still not eating a great deal, but she does seem to be reasonably enthusiastic about grass so she's been allowed a little munch! Her bottom, while discoloured, didn't feel as wet today and certainly wasn't as grubby but I don't want to get my hopes up just yet as I haven't seen her poop so I don't know what it is like.
 
What a beauty she is <3 Keep up with the syringe feeds, around 20 ml every 4 hours if you can, also try to hand feed her hay, small soft bits gently fed into her mouth, hay should help firm up her poops a little hopefully :)
 
Poppy'sMum said:
What a beauty she is <3 Keep up with the syringe feeds, around 20 ml every 4 hours if you can, also try to hand feed her hay, small soft bits gently fed into her mouth, hay should help firm up her poops a little hopefully :)
Click to expand...

She's just had some more feeds. I tried to get her to eat some carrot but she refused - I'm a little worried that if she continues to refuse harder foods, and just eats the syringe food and the odd bit of grass, her teeth will begin to suffer. Is this likely?

She's currently munching on some hay and watching Holby City :)
 
The grass should help a bit (though may not help the diarrhoea) but yes it is a possibility. If you could get her an appointment with Simon he would be able to deal with that though.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top