Need help! Day 2 after our Boars' first fight (Blood drawn) - More questions...

[Alamerona]

Hi TGPF, I wanted to create a separate thread to get some help regarding our two Boars, Bluebear and Walker, specifically around splitting them up, rebonding, the best course of action going forwards and more - The two of them recently had a fight that played out as such:

1. We returned from the vets (This was Walker's second appointment in two weeks), as Walker exhibited signs of a URI (Which is what the vet suspects, and prescribed medication to help combat it). We put them into their 'Main' cage, and then moved them to their 'Floortime' cage to clean their 'Main' cage after a few hours being home.
2. Bluebear and Walker were rumbling at eachother (This was normal). For context they were in a 5x3.5 C&C 'Floortime' cage whilst we cleaned their 7x3 C&C 'Main' cage.
3. Walker attempted a leap towards Bluebear and missed.
4. The two went in different directions, and then began rumbling again (This was after around 7 minutes or so).
5. Walker attempted a second leap at Bluebear, and caused blood to be drawn on Bluebear's nose, frontal-lip and upper-right lip.
6. We removed Bluebear from the floor cage and immediately wiped up the blood with clean cotton buds, and made a saline solution out of 500ml freshly cooled, boiled water and 1 tsp salt, then applied it to the wounds.
7. We then changed all of the sheets in their 'Main' cage with freshly washed sheets, and divided the cage into a 3.5x3 C&C split. Each Boar now has a separate 3.5x3 space, separated equally with C&C grids so they can still see, sniff and interact.

Since doing this we have noticed that at the start, Bluebear seemed to have become recluse, but quickly began to eat and drink normally again despite the injury to his mouth - He went to sit next to Walker side-by-side numerous times as Walker was tugging and biting at the dividing grids; Bluebear soon began to do the same, with Walker resting next to him, and eventually they both remained next to eachother periodically, and were happy to groom in one-another's presence.

This morning we've made sure to monitor them carefully and have provided individual bottles, dishes, hay, hideys (Two per Boar), and individual toys. We have adapted our 'Floortime' cage into a 2.5x3.5 C&C grid now (Flexible, thankfully) to use while we've cleaned out their 'Main' cage, however interestingly both Bluebear and Walker have been very civil next to eachother - Bluebear even allowing Walker to sniff his rump by poking it through the grates, and they are frequently sniffing eachother's noses and mostly are calm, asides from the odd rumblestrut or biting of the bars here or there. It's also important to note that Bluebear's behaviour doesn't seem to have changed as a result. Just that he seems to want to be with Walker.

We have a few questions after this, naturally, that we wanted to get opinions on:

1. Can we rebond them? And, should we rebond them?
   1. If so, when?
   2. If not, why?
2. Will we need to find them their own new Boar buddies? Or would them being next to eachother in a separated cage as laid out above alright?
3. Would this be classed as a proper fight? Or is there the possibility that this could be a swipe that just went wrong? Possibly trying to be optimistic here...
4. Could this have been a response to Walker's visit to the vets? We did administer his medication (Which he hates with a passion), so we think this may had been the straw that broke the camel's back rather than anything Bluebear did in terms of dominance.

We have read all of the supporting material here on The Guinea Pig Forum, but nothing beats having direct responses to these situations. We really do need the help here as we need to prepare ourselves if we need to separate them permanently, or to know if this bond can be salvaged.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi TGPF, I wanted to create a separate thread to get some help regarding our two Boars, Bluebear and Walker, specifically around splitting them up, rebonding, the best course of action going forwards and more - The two of them recently had a fight that played out as such:

1. We returned from the vets (This was Walker's second appointment in two weeks), as Walker exhibited signs of a URI (Which is what the vet suspects, and prescribed medication to help combat it). We put them into their 'Main' cage, and then moved them to their 'Floortime' cage to clean their 'Main' cage after a few hours being home.
2. Bluebear and Walker were rumbling at eachother (This was normal). For context they were in a 5x3.5 C&C 'Floortime' cage whilst we cleaned their 7x3 C&C 'Main' cage.
3. Walker attempted a leap towards Bluebear and missed.
4. The two went in different directions, and then began rumbling again (This was after around 7 minutes or so).
5. Walker attempted a second leap at Bluebear, and caused blood to be drawn on Bluebear's nose, frontal-lip and upper-right lip.
6. We removed Bluebear from the floor cage and immediately wiped up the blood with clean cotton buds, and made a saline solution out of 500ml freshly cooled, boiled water and 1 tsp salt, then applied it to the wounds.
7. We then changed all of the sheets in their 'Main' cage with freshly washed sheets, and divided the cage into a 3.5x3 C&C split. Each Boar now has a separate 3.5x3 space, separated equally with C&C grids so they can still see, sniff and interact.

Since doing this we have noticed that at the start, Bluebear seemed to have become recluse, but quickly began to eat and drink normally again despite the injury to his mouth - He went to sit next to Walker side-by-side numerous times as Walker was tugging and biting at the dividing grids; Bluebear soon began to do the same, with Walker resting next to him, and eventually they both remained next to eachother periodically, and were happy to groom in one-another's presence.

This morning we've made sure to monitor them carefully and have provided individual bottles, dishes, hay, hideys (Two per Boar), and individual toys. We have adapted our 'Floortime' cage into a 2.5x3.5 C&C grid now (Flexible, thankfully) to use while we've cleaned out their 'Main' cage, however interestingly both Bluebear and Walker have been very civil next to eachother - Bluebear even allowing Walker to sniff his rump by poking it through the grates, and they are frequently sniffing eachother's noses and mostly are calm, asides from the odd rumblestrut or biting of the bars here or there. It's also important to note that Bluebear's behaviour doesn't seem to have changed as a result. Just that he seems to want to be with Walker.

We have a few questions after this, naturally, that we wanted to get opinions on:

1. Can we rebond them? And, should we rebond them?
   1. If so, when?
   2. If not, why?
2. Will we need to find them their own new Boar buddies? Or would them being next to eachother in a separated cage as laid out above alright?
3. Would this be classed as a proper fight? Or is there the possibility that this could be a swipe that just went wrong? Possibly trying to be optimistic here...
4. Could this have been a response to Walker's visit to the vets? We did administer his medication (Which he hates with a passion), so we think this may had been the straw that broke the camel's back rather than anything Bluebear did in terms of dominance.

We have read all of the supporting material here on The Guinea Pig Forum, but nothing beats having direct responses to these situations. We really do need the help here as we need to prepare ourselves if we need to separate them permanently, or to know if this bond can be salvaged.

Hi!

You can try a re-intro on neutral ground outside the cage any time that is convenient for you (you will need several hours for observation). If things are still a little dodgy but not at the limit, it is better to leave bonding/re-bonding piggies in the bonding area overnight than putting them back into their cage too early so all the rough dominance is out of the way first and doesn't flare up again the cage.

If the fall-out has been permanent, you will see aggro building up very quickly you will need to separate promptly with something else than you bare hands; a permanent fall-out will show up within less than half an hour and can take only a few minutes for things to head into the wrong direction straight away. However, you will only know when they come face to face again.

A vet trip or any added stress factor could have played into it but would have not been the cause of it.

Unfortunately, it is pretty difficult to tell whether the boys being at the divider is territorial behaviour (which most people are not aware of that it exists) or the wish to be back with the other (as which it is usually interpreted or very often actually misinterpreted). The clues can be extremely subtle. You will only know during the re-intro whether your boys have had a fight or just a harmless tussle with a swipe which both see as an accident.

If the rebonding fails, then you just put them back in the divided cage and take the time to do your research re. the various long term options. You do not need to have a permanent solution straight away. It pays to explore what is possible where you are and not to rush into anything.

 

[Alamerona]

Hi!

You can try a re-intro on neutral ground outside the cage any time that is convenient for you (you will need several hours for observation). If things are still a little dodgy but not at the limit, it is better to leave bonding/re-bonding piggies in the bonding area overnight than putting them back into their cage too early so all the rough dominance is out of the way first and doesn't flare up again the cage.

If the fall-out has been permanent, you will see aggro building up very quickly you will need to separate promptly with something else than you bare hands; a permanent fall-out will show up within less than half an hour and can take only a few minutes for things to head into the wrong direction straight away. However, you will only know when they come face to face again.

A vet trip or any added stress factor could have played into it but would have not been the cause of it.

Unfortunately, it is pretty difficult to tell whether the boys being at the divider is territorial behaviour (which most people are not aware of that it exists) or the wish to be back with the other (as which it is usually interpreted or very often actually misinterpreted). The clues can be extremely subtle. You will only know during the re-intro whether your boys have had a fight or just a harmless tussle with a swipe which both see as an accident.

If the rebonding fails, then you just put them back in the divided cage and take the time to do your research re. the various long term options. You do not need to have a permanent solution straight away. It pays to explore what is possible where you are and not to rush into anything.

Hi Wiebke, thank you massively for the detailed and comprehensive response - It's certainly helped us to understand the situation better and to feel a bit more at ease with this whole thing - Do you think that if we were to try and rebond them tomorrow, that it would be too early? Just want to ensure we don't do anything to push the bond one way or another unintentionally.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi Wiebke, thank you massively for the detailed and comprehensive response - It's certainly helped us to understand the situation better and to feel a bit more at ease with this whole thing - Do you think that if we were to try and rebond them tomorrow, that it would be too early? Just want to ensure we don't do anything to push the bond one way or another unintentionally.

I would give it at least 48 hours after the incident for the pain, hormones and tempers to settle down. After that, it is at your discretion. Since we cannot interview your boys on their view of the incident, all we can do is a formal re-intro to get their honest opinion about the state of their relationship.

Not every bond has to be taken until there is a fight if the boys have clearly decided that they don't vibe anymore. We have put the warning in because of owners with pet anxiety splitting their boars at the first sign of dominance behaviour.

Please just take it step by step and try not to overthink. Your next step is a re-intro and re-evaluation of their bond.

 

[Alamerona]

I would give it at least 48 hours after the incident for the pain, hormones and tempers to settle down. After that, it is at your discretion. Since we cannot interview your boys on their view of the incident, all we can do is a formal re-intro to get their honest opinion about the state of their relationship.

Not every bond has to be taken until there is a fight if the boys have clearly decided that they don't vibe anymore. We have put the warning in because of owners with pet anxiety splitting their boars at the first sign of dominance behaviour.

Please just take it step by step and try not to overthink. Your next step is a re-intro and re-evaluation of their bond.

Ok, thanks again Wiebke; we're definitely taking it slow and trying not to overthink Here's hoping things go well when we re-intro

 

[Wiebke]

Ok, thanks again Wiebke; we're definitely taking it slow and trying not to overthink Here's hoping things go well when we re-intro

Fingers very firmly crossed!

 

[Alamerona]

Fingers very firmly crossed!

So just a bit of a status update, we've attempted rebonding this morning on freshly cleaned, neutralised sheets in their 'Floortime' cage, and things seem to be going well - Bluebear and Walker have been sociable, and comfortable enough to eat, drink, groom and sleep in one-another's presence, even if it is at opposite ends of the cage - They're currently eating their lunchtime veggies peacefully, and we've only noted two instances of loud teeth-chattering - Other than the few seconds of humping at the beginning of the rebonding, Walker has been behaving and both have been considerate of the other, moving when one of them is blocking one of the two water bottles, and allowing the other to pass behind them.

I hope this is a good sign!

In this regard, what should be our next steps? They've been in the 'Floortime' cage since 10:30am (So around 4 hours as of writing this) - Should we continue this throughout tonight?

Also, will we need to change their 'Main' cage sheets to reset any territory marking they've done since they've been separated?

Cheers!

 

[Wiebke]

So just a bit of a status update, we've attempted rebonding this morning on freshly cleaned, neutralised sheets in their 'Floortime' cage, and things seem to be going well - Bluebear and Walker have been sociable, and comfortable enough to eat, drink, groom and sleep in one-another's presence, even if it is at opposite ends of the cage - They're currently eating their lunchtime veggies peacefully, and we've only noted two instances of loud teeth-chattering - Other than the few seconds of humping at the beginning of the rebonding, Walker has been behaving and both have been considerate of the other, moving when one of them is blocking one of the two water bottles, and allowing the other to pass behind them.

I hope this is a good sign!

In this regard, what should be our next steps? They've been in the 'Floortime' cage since 10:30am (So around 4 hours as of writing this) - Should we continue this throughout tonight?

Also, will we need to change their 'Main' cage sheets to reset any territory marking they've done since they've been separated?

Cheers!

No, you can move them back into the cage for the night if things are still working out well. It looks like it has been an accident or minor hiccup and the bond is still very much working.