Neutering: just some angry rumbling

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Piggyologist said:
I really wanted to respond to correct inaccuracies in how you turned certain fact around, but I'm not even going to bother, since you were not quite courteous with me from the very beginning when I shared our new arrival's details on the forum and you're making it personal again.

Never said people here were dumb and anyone who isn't dumb :) does understand it from my original post. And no, cats and dogs are different as pigs can only hump whoever we put them in the room with, so it only depends on us. Can go on for a long time, but don't really want to mimic your behavior, plus have work to do :)
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Your words have been judgemental insensitive and very harsh *frown* by saying neutering is butchering!

I'm sure there are many people have lost their little piggies due to neutering and deeply regret having it done now. and you come along get on your high horse and start saying your fed up with reading about peoples sob stories.....how insensitive and harsh *frown*

To submit a thread like this and make a poor excuse you have work to do and are too busy to respond to everyone *shake my head* Finish what you started {:|

Nothing in here is personal against any specific personal but i must admit anyone reading this thread having lost their piggy would take it personal hence did I ..............for you to reply to everyone this I consider being courteous

You could have approached this subject more diplomatically instead it seems you wanted to air your feelings and had no care or empathy for the ripple affect you may have caused the readers

I repeat............your the one who submitted this thread? if your too busy to address everyones response........WHY did you submit this thread in the first place - you already acknowledged that it would cause a lot of responses... so you knew it would cause a huge uproar!

If you cant deal with the consequences of your words dont submit threads like this

*frown*
 
Piggyologist said:
Awwww, honey, I wasn't referring to you at all. It was out of you control and it wasn't your fault at all!
hugs

I really didn't mean to upset you
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thank you :red i appreciate your response and nothing personal you hit a raw nerve

Ive said what I feel - hence thats why this is a thread for everyone to air their feelings

Ive not personally attacked you I just wanted to express how it upset me yesterday - i accept your apology.

Please be sensitive when submitting serious subjects like this though cos words can upset people dear :(
 
are you just talking about guinea pigs getting nuetered? because if you are talking about other animals thats a bit unfair, like say for cats, if you have one you dont want it having lots of kittens with other cats, and people properly have there reasons, so i do kinda find this thread a bit unfair
 
Doeylicious said:
As an owner who has had three boys 'done' I am afraid I did find it quite offensive to be told I had put them through agony etc. etc. - I am more concerned about members like PiggyLove who has obviously been very upset by this and really should not have been made to feel this way as her experience could have happened to ANYONE.

This thread will have made a lot of people doubt their ability as owners, especially those who are more insecure than others. I tried in my response to stand up for the other side so these people don't feel they have hurt or damaged their piggies unnecessarily, as I think it is categorically unfair to these people to be told they have 'butchered' their pets when that is far from the truth.

This forum should encourage people to learn more, look at guineas in another way than 'those little things in the pet shop', and join a strong, supportive community - not shoot them down with quite graphically worded posts when they have made a decision and stuck by it, whatever the consequences may be.

Whatever your views on neutering, being made to feel you have done something so terribly wrong and 'now look what's happened' is not on IMO.
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thank you xx
 
Wiebke said:
I have to agree - whilst our guinea pigs are pets, they still have their social group instincts. Boars play a vital role in any larger group. They soak up a lot of the bickering that would happen otherwise and also act proactively as peace keepers and integrators within a group. Cross gender bonds are generally very stable and often very loving.
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very true it brings a beautiful balance and is wonderful watching them all interact.

Wiebke said:
I can accept that neutering is not everybody's cup of tea, but seeing how a neutered boar that would have otherwise been on his own after all bonding attempts failed is positively flourishing physically as well as emotionally when living the dream with a sow or a group of sows, I do not regret going down that route repeatedly and will do so again, even though Hywel, my latest boar, nearly died from complications and I would have been very upset if he had done so.
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Piggy was so happy to have 2 girls for company he completely loved this and i saw a wonderful balance and new level of happiness in him

Wiebke said:
It is a well informed and researched choice, and as such has the same validity as any other decision. We each have to make our own assessment as to whether we weigh the risks higher than the chance of being able to offer a boar the most happy of lives possible. I have to add that I haven't met many forum members who have made that decision lightly or casually in my time on here because the emotional price on the owner when things go wrong is high. After all, the happiness of our piggies is paramount to most of here - even if the definition differs somewhat.
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A high price indeed - devastatingly high ") and I did my research and did everything the right way :(

Piggy was more than a guinea pig to me - he was my life - I have very special and precious videos, photos and moments that will be in my heart forever

He loved the girls and the girls adored him. Its was wonderful seeing Piggy in love and having time with his own kind to snuggle up to and talk piggy talk with :))
 
Having Piggy changed my life and his life too

Piggy was cruelly treated before I took him home and I gave him the best years full of love and tenderness he deserved every ounce of love and more and I know he was happy- his body language and the way he interacted with me showed me he loved me and it gave me the best feeling in the world that I rescued a hurt animal back to happiness - I'm sad he never made it cos I would have loved him to have girlies to play with and run around with for years to come.

Ive been phoning a pet bereavement helpline and they have been helping me as well as this forum in dealing with this loss.

I'm trying to think of him runing around rainbow bridge with lots of girlies cos he was a handsome chap - a real man he was :)
 
gogoguineas said:
I think 'butchering' is such a horrific term and terribly offensive to those that choose to neuter. Because that is what it is, a choice and one that no one takes lightly.
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absolutely

gogoguineas said:
This thread however has educated me more on it now than ever and I feel more confident that it is not butchering and is sometimes an option to enable a potentially lonely piggie to flourish amongst some sows or find anohter home. Again, through my personal choice I would leave this as a last resort though.
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Thats right............ i am home all the time so could interact with piggy all the time - if I had not been home all hte time and Piggy was alone he would be worse off.

But seriously seeing Piggy with the girls was an awesome experience its true romance true bonding true balance - they are such loving animals towards one another. Piggy was so gentle with the girls, so loving. He was a gentleman he would let the girls sleep in the bed and he sleep outside. He kissed them, snuggled up with them, groomed them and they did back to him too. What i found cute was Abby licked Piggies ears so sweet.

At floortime one of the girls only had to wheek once and Piggy would run faster than road runner to see if she was ok. So awesome to watch - Piggy was their protector and I suppose their mentor - they learnt things from him too. xx>>>

I would sit for hours just watching them together it was amazing seeing a beautiful balance come into play. Guinea pigs are extraordinary animals

gogoguineas said:
Piggylove as soon as I saw this I thought of you because I genuinely sobbed my heart out for you when I read your original thread but you did what you thought was best and unfortunately it just didnt work out, please dont blame yourself. Your piggys situation got complicated and no one could have anticipated that. And I'm sure the last thing anyone wanted to do was offend you by discussing the subject.
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God bless you - thank you x>>
 
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rachelsharp said:
After having my two girls for 3 years, I came to the decision of adding a male to the group. The reason for this was because I know the time will come when one is left without the other, and I couldn't bear the thought of it. They have been so close. There are numerous reasons why I did not want to add another sow to the group, and when looking on the website of an animal rescue I used to volunteer at, I saw Rufus, the first guinea pig they had had this year. I knew that he had to come home with me. He had a rough start to his life and I very much wanted to be able to provide a loving home for him, and another companion for my two girls.

This all happened before I joined the forum. I possibly did rush into it, but I am so glad that I got him. He settled in here very quickly and slept next to my bed for the first two months until he was of the age for neutering. When I took him on the 2nd of July for his op, I was so scared. I was as organised as I could be, but always had a worry in the back of my mind that I may be putting him through something unneccesary.

Fortunately for both me and Rufus, he survived the op and five weeks later he is happy and healthy with good signs of recovery. Not once during his recovery did I feel he was in pain.

He has now been introduced to my two girls, Poppy and Meg, and they have taken him under their wing and nothing gives me more joy than to see the three of them snuggled up in bed together. For me, I have a sense that this is what he has been waiting for all along, for some lovely piggy company and because of the op he has been able to live as close to a natural situation as possible.

Only three months ago he was a painfully shy piggy, fearful of everyone and having never experienced the company of another pig. Maybe he would have bonded well with another boar, but having seen him settle in so quickly with my two girls it is undoubtedly the best decision I have made, and the best thing that has ever happened to him. I look forward to him being able to live out his live with my two girls, and numerous others as time goes on.

It is so heartbreaking to hear stories of people's piggies not making it to the other side, but with I feel the forum is a place that is supposed to help people make informed decisions about what they feel is best for their pigs. It allowed me to weigh up the pros and cons of what was going to happen to my piggie, and thankfully this decision has paid off for both Rufus and I.
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aaaw thats so beautiful - it made my heart smile when i read your post - it is so lovely seeing them snuggle up together and content.

Piggy and my girlies were content too - a wonderful sight.

drool
 
I say again -time to close this thread-before someone says something they may regret.
 
Piggyologist said:
I know this will bring down an avalanche of criticism, but still, can't stop saying it.

I'm not talking here about people who absolutely had to neuter/spay, because the pets they got were mis-sexed, or a rescue and it's that or a guaranteed dead animal or similar.

How about when people have a choice? A pack of sows,for example, but they are getting a boar instead of another sow and, of course, are hurriedly butchering him, quite possibly killing during the process and no doubt, subjecting to an excruciating amount of suffering if he/she survive at all (and vice versa: spaying).

It's plain stupid to not think a second in advance before getting another animal of opposite sex. If you're not a rescue, it's a piece of cake to get all animals of the same sex rehomed (again, unless they were mis-sexed). The problem is, people, especially less experienced ones, don't understand the risks involved and should be more informed of what neutering process is. How about a bit of common sense: if you cut someone's private parts off what does that feel like? That's exactly what neutering is: they do remove pet's private parts. Now if we apply it to humans, sounds absolutely horrible, doesn't it. But people don't hesitate doing it to their pets for some reason.

There should be more discussions about this: it's just not good enough to listen to all the sob stories of a pig dying a horrible painful death, because someone didn't have the brain to think twice before rehoming opposite sex of what they've got in the herd already.
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Whoa whoa whoa, where an earth has this come from and made you so angry? neutering is safe in capable hands and all animals should (and from a good practice) receive pain relief. Nothing is felt under aneasthetic and once its out the system, with 24 hours or so so long as pain relief is kept up if your pet is uncomfortable then all is ok. Your pet just needs a good owner to keep an eye for any complications. Why do you feel so strongly about this? Every month at work we neuter over a hundred animals (including piggies) and very rearly do they come back with complications or die after. And i have only ever ONCE seen one cat die (while in for a spay) because it had a very rare reaction to the aneasthetic drugs. Very very unusual.

Are you ok? Why are you so angry?

x.
 
PiggyLove said:
Having Piggy changed my life and his life too

Piggy was cruelly treated before I took him home and I gave him the best years full of love and tenderness he deserved every ounce of love and more and I know he was happy- his body language and the way he interacted with me showed me he loved me and it gave me the best feeling in the world that I rescued a hurt animal back to happiness - I'm sad he never made it cos I would have loved him to have girlies to play with and run around with for years to come.

Ive been phoning a pet bereavement helpline and they have been helping me as well as this forum in dealing with this loss.

I'm trying to think of him runing around rainbow bridge with lots of girlies cos he was a handsome chap - a real man he was :)
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I am so sorry that Piggy died. He knows that you love him and wanted to make him as happy as you could; I don't think that he would love you any less for what happened. But I am sure that you have a very special little guardian angel looking out for you from now on!

Grieving takes time, and we all need to do in our own way. I have lost several piggies in or after operations (none of them neutering), and I have been left each time questioning whether that operation was really necessary at the time. There is one that in hindsight I now know could have been avoided, but it was before I joined the forum and learned better. Seeing how well Missy coped with her cataracts has given me the courage to offer Tegyd a home, so she has left her own legacy and is not forgotten.

Perhaps in time you can find that piggy you want to sponsor or rehome in Piggy's spirit so the special bond you shared can be kept alive and handed on.

HUGS
 
christine said:
I say again -time to close this thread-before someone says something they may regret.
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We're watching this thread, thanks. Just because people are posting different viewpoints and disagree on some things doesn't mean a thread needs to be closed. If things get truly personal (which they haven't really, despite a couple of people saying they might be) then we'll look at closing it.
 
Wiebke said:
I am so sorry that Piggy died. He knows that you love him and wanted to make him as happy as you could; I don't think that he would love you any less for what happened. But I am sure that you have a very special little guardian angel looking out for you from now on!

Grieving takes time, and we all need to do in our own way. I have lost several piggies in or after operations (none of them neutering), and I have been left each time questioning whether that operation was really necessary at the time. There is one that in hindsight I now know could have been avoided, but it was before I joined the forum and learned better. Seeing how well Missy coped with her cataracts has given me the courage to offer Tegyd a home, so she has left her own legacy and is not forgotten.

Perhaps in time you can find that piggy you want to sponsor or rehome in Piggy's spirit so the special bond you shared can be kept alive and handed on.

HUGS
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thank you dear I'm sorry for your losses too :(

If the vets had not operated on him a 3rd time I think he would be here now. I will love and cherish his girlies and give them the same love I did him.
 
Evening all.

I can only speak from my own experience of having boars neutered ... so here goes.

My experience has been a positive one. I have owned guinea pigs for over twenty years but it was only about four years ago that I had a boar neutered for the first time (without getting my piggy care records out) and boy was I worried!

I agree it is a worry agreeing to have the procedure done as it does involve a general anaesthetic which is always a risk with small animals. However, I believe the pros outway the cons.

I remember having a lovely piggy called Joey. I adopted him along with his son Simba. Joey had always been a poorly little soul. He had a kidney stone removed at a very early age which resulted in a bulge in his tummy along the scar line. He was always poorly after that. Sadly Simba passed away at 1 year old which left Joey alone and he would never bond with another boar. So unfortunately he lived alone although hearing others in my piggy shed. Had he been neutered he would have had a option to be bonded with a sow or two.

I have got wonderful pairings of neutered boars with one sow and my neutered boar Junior lives with three sows. It is such a joy to watch the natural herd companionships within the groups.

Yes it isn't everyone's choice to neuter. However, it is a relatively easy procedure as it is not very invasive. Spaying sows is something I certainly would not agree with! I have a great vet who checks the pigs health pre-op and has two or three post-op checks after.

All I can say is find a vet, ask how many neutering they carry out each year, what their success rate is and the care that is included.

All I can say is that my neutered boars are blissfully happy being bossed about and having their ears and eyes licked clean by their lady friends.

Just my opinion though.
 
I have had two neutered boars, both rescue boys. My experience with Wills, my first rescue boy, was traumatic - he developed a post-castration abscess, picked up and then died suddenly. I don't know what caused his death, but it may have been the return of the abscess internally. Whatever the cause, losing him was devastating.

With three sows, there was no way I could rescue an intact boar. Instead, fate intervened and Bumble turned up, a very cute sow. But Wills' lady, Rose, did not like Bumble (or my bonded pair, come to that). Living on her own was clearly stressful for her, and initially she lined dreadfully, making herself I'll. Having got her through a URI, I spent a long time thinking about the way forward. Ultimately, the only choice for Rose was a husband, and as she is > 9 months old, any chance of pregnancy had the potential to be fatal (not to mention the fact that I didn't want mini pigs). I made the decision to wait for a neutered boar from a rescue, and when Basil arrived I knew I'd done the right thing. 6 weeks down the line, Rose is so much happier, and Basil adores his wife. He has even picked up Rosie's begging tendencies!

Conversely, Bumble was pregnant by the time she was 6 weeks old. At 7 months she looked like a 12 week old piggy and still fit in the palm of my hand. I took her in after she was an unwanted gift for a friend, at 7 months old, post partum and angry at the world.

All my piggies are happy. They all know they are loved. Ok, so Basil shoots blanks, but his op does not appear to have done him any great damage. Yes, Wills did have post-op problems. He also had for months of bliss living with me and his three wives. He was found wandering the streets prior to rescue. I hate that he was taken from me too soon, but I don't regret the decision to adopt a neutered boar.

I would also like to point out that human males 'have the snip' as a form of birth control, and females have hysterectomies. We don't butcher our pets any more than we butcher ourselves; just as the decision to have a vasectomy is thought through, so is a castration.
 
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PiggyLove said:
i am ill - i struggle to live day by day by day

Piggy gave me a reason to get up, to go to shops, to care for him - he was my reason i am alive today

if only i could turn back time .............if only.......... I'm a fool and i paid a HIGH price :(

ADMIN delete my previous messages if you will - i got upset I'm sorry

I'm still raw with pain from my loss
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Hey hun, I hope you're okay, I think I've missed what you've been through, but don't for one second think you're responsible, or feel guilt. You did a great thing for Piggy, giving him the opportunity to live in the most natural of ways, with the opposite sex. It's not your fault one little bit!
And I understand completely that he was your 'raison d'etre', my piggies and pup are that to me, so I really hope you are alright.

As for the debate on neutering, well as we are all members of this forum, we clearly care enough for our piggies welfare to come on the internet and talk to others who are knowledgeable and learn and develop our knowledge.
With what we learn, and the opinions we gather we are all able to make balanced decisions on what is right/wrong for our piggies, and if we decide neutering is that we can be sure the person has thought long and hard about it, and it is the right decision for them.
OP, don't feel that others are being nasty, or that things are getting personal towards you. People are just saying what they think on the matter. We are all different and have different views, I think you put your views across very strongly and others are therefore coming back with their views in an equally strong manner, so please don't take things personally.
 
hallie2985 said:
I have had two neutered boars, both rescue boys. My experience with Wills, my first rescue boy, was traumatic - he developed a post-castration abscess, picked up and then died suddenly. I don't know what caused his death, but it may have been the return of the abscess internally. Whatever the cause, losing him was devastating.

With three sows, there was no way I could rescue an intact boar. Instead, fate intervened and Bumble turned up, a very cute sow. But Wills' lady, Rose, did not like Bumble (or my bonded pair, come to that). Living on her own was clearly stressful for her, and initially she lined dreadfully, making herself I'll. Having got her through a URI, I spent a long time thinking about the way forward. Ultimately, the only choice for Rose was a husband, and as she is > 9 months old, any chance of pregnancy had the potential to be fatal (not to mention the fact that I didn't want mini pigs). I made the decision to wait for a neutered boar from a rescue, and when Basil arrived I knew I'd done the right thing. 6 weeks down the line, Rose is so much happier, and Basil adores his wife. He has even picked up Rosie's begging tendencies!

Conversely, Bumble was pregnant by the time she was 6 weeks old. At 7 months she looked like a 12 week old piggy and still fit in the palm of my hand. I took her in after she was an unwanted gift for a friend, at 7 months old, post partum and angry at the world.

All my piggies are happy. They all know they are loved. Ok, so Basil shoots blanks, but his op does not appear to have done him any great damage. Yes, Wills did have post-op problems. He also had for months of bliss living with me and his three wives. He was found wandering the streets prior to rescue. I hate that he was taken from me too soon, but I don't regret the decision to adopt a neutered boar.

I would also like to point out that human males 'have the snip' as a form of birth control, and females have hysterectomies. We don't butcher our pets any more than we butcher ourselves; just as the decision to have a vasectomy is thought through, so is a castration.
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I'm sorry for your losses :( it is very hard :( hugs
 
doglovinpiggylover said:
He is soooo loving and soft and will do ANYTHING for a snuggle or a cuddle hes just beautiful and i am so biased x)
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yup they are little snuggle bugs :)) but when they need to run ...........oh my........ faster than road runner LOL LOL
 
All of my cats and dogs are neutered (oh except my puppy) but I would only neuter guinea pigs as a last resort.

I think it is relatively safe to get male guinea pigs neutered, but a big deal for females to be. But even if it was 100% safe, it's often unnecessary.

I'm getting my male guinea pig neutered soon, but I have good reasons. The story is I got two female guinea pigs, one was pregnant, she had a baby boy and I couldn't bear the give him away. I got him a baby boy friend, and then later I adopted an older male and they lived together happily. Unfortunately the other young boar started bullying the others so he was separated and lived next door to the girls for company. The two other boars lived together. But then sadly both the other boys died :( So I'm left with my original boar, and four girls. I don't want to bond him with another baby boar because there are girls around so I expect they would fight, and I don't want him to live alone all his life. I have to keep all the guinea pigs in my small room, so the boys would be able to smell the girls and I won't have room for an extra cage anyway. And I have enough guinea pigs at 5, without getting a 6th one. So it really makes sense to get my boar neutered and I think is worth the risk because he's only a year old and can have the rest of his life living happily with his girls. :) I also feel like having one boar and 4 sows, will be a nice natural small herd and they'll get along well. :)

If I ran a rescue, then I wouldn't neuter boars routinely (and definitely not sows!) because I think it's unnecessary. I'd just try to pair them with their own sex first. Boars can be really happy together.

I don't think neutering is cruel, but it is still surgery. For a male animal, it's not a huge deal, though still has risks, it doesn't hurt them that much. But for a female animal, it is a big surgery and hurts a lot. A lot of people don't realise that.

I understand that people like to keep boars and sows together, which is a good thing since it's natural and they usually get on really well. I don't think it's wrong to do, but it's not really necessary, that's just how I feel.
 
PiggyLove said:
yup they are little snuggle bugs :)) but when they need to run ...........oh my........ faster than road runner LOL LOL
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for sure...i love watching him darting through the fields chasing his ball (rubber one, not his long lost one) :))
 
My view is, who are we to mutilate an animal when we don't need to? I know your trying to keep it as natural as possible, but to remove a sensitive part of an animals anatomy when not necessary is wrong.. I have this same argument with horses.. the mare gets to keep her womb, whilst the stallion looses his jewels.. the mare is often worse for trouble making than the stallion.. it's nature and we twist it to suit us..
I will never put any of my guinea pigs through this, and will never put them in a position to ever need it.. they are perfectly happy in their little groups, and the females do not miss having a male around especially when they've never had one..
My youngster (pony) had a rig op (one ball had not descended and was stuck under his kidney) last year, and was really poorly for two weeks.. his back leg swelled up to more than twice it's size, he couldn't walk, I had to force him to, as it was supposed to help keep the swelling down and reduce the chance of blood clots.. he was that ill one night -if I'd been told how bad he was I'd have got the vet out, as a fellow livery sat with him but didn't tell me as a bit of tlc brought him back down to earth - he was soaked with sweat, trembling and breathing really heavy through the stress and pain he was going through.. that was a necessary pain though as it was had ended up cancerous if left up there, and I'd already given him 2 years to drop it..
That was a horse, now imagine how a guinea pig feels? Sorry but I have my view and I have viewed it.. Who are we to mess with nature?
 
BonBon2010 said:
My view is, who are we to mutilate an animal when we don't need to? I know your trying to keep it as natural as possible, but to remove a sensitive part of an animals anatomy when not necessary is wrong.. I have this same argument with horses.. the mare gets to keep her womb, whilst the stallion looses his jewels.. the mare is often worse for trouble making than the stallion.. it's nature and we twist it to suit us..
I will never put any of my guinea pigs through this, and will never put them in a position to ever need it.. they are perfectly happy in their little groups, and the females do not miss having a male around especially when they've never had one..
My youngster (pony) had a rig op (one ball had not descended and was stuck under his kidney) last year, and was really poorly for two weeks.. his back leg swelled up to more than twice it's size, he couldn't walk, I had to force him to, as it was supposed to help keep the swelling down and reduce the chance of blood clots.. he was that ill one night -if I'd been told how bad he was I'd have got the vet out, as a fellow livery sat with him but didn't tell me as a bit of tlc brought him back down to earth - he was soaked with sweat, trembling and breathing really heavy through the stress and pain he was going through.. that was a necessary pain though as it was had ended up cancerous if left up there, and I'd already given him 2 years to drop it..
That was a horse, now imagine how a guinea pig feels? Sorry but I have my view and I have viewed it.. Who are we to mess with nature?
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What about if you had a dog or cat? Yes it is natural for animals to reproduce but the fact of the matter is there are thousands of animals in rehoming centres all around the world and there just aren't enough homes. Some of these animals are destroyed as the amount of unwanted animals is so high. Surely it's kinder to control the problem (ie neutering/spaying).

"last year 7,743 dogs in the Uk were destroyed in pounds."

source: http://www.dogsos.co.uk/#/death-row-dogs/4524189856
 
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