Neutral territory for baby girl to meet unrelated adult girl

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Sugarpuffs

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Hello, we have a 7 ? week old baby girl that we want to bond with a 2 year old girl who was bereaved last week. Our cage is an open topped 4 x 2 grid C and C cage. We bought the baby girl last Saturday and since this Tuesday they have been living in half of the cage each with a grille down the middle. So they can see, smell and hear one another.

Is it possible to sort of skip a stage out of the usual recommendations for moving to them living completely together in the whole cage without the divider? What I am thinking of is to move them out into separate carriers while I do a total clean of the cage and take out the dividing grille. Then put them both in together to the clean and rearranged cage - rather than finding another place which is neutral territory for them to first spend several hours together. Is this a really bad idea for some reason?

The reason I'm thinking of doing it this way is because creating safe neutral territory elsewhere, where we can keep a good eye on them, is not straighforward this time of the year - the places I might have used in the summer are very draughty this time of year and probably not conducive to them feeling relaxed and happy to get to know one another.
 
I am not an expert at bonding but i am sure @Wiebke who is an expert will be along later to offer you some advice.

Both your bereaved piggy and your baby will be desperately in need of companionship, so i hope you are able to bond them soon.
 
I wouldn't personally. Are you able to block any small gaps in the bathroom and use that even just for an hour or so to give them time to get to know each other? I use the kitchen personally as it has no hidey gaps and easy to close all the doors
 
In response to lady Kelly's suggestion, I used the bathroom for a bonding between a 12 week old and a 6 year old. Simply took some old cushions and put them by the sink (ours isn't booked in) and under the toilet pipe that links to the wall
 
dannif_piggies said:
In response to lady Kelly's suggestion, I used the bathroom for a bonding between a 12 week old and a 6 year old. Simply took some old cushions and put them by the sink (ours isn't booked in) and under the toilet pipe that links to the wall
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Thank you both. The bathroom is an option; the cage is in the bathroom. The downside to it is not sure if it counts as "neutral territory" as the older one has used it as her "run" from time to time so it's not totally "new" to her. Also, it's in the way of getting on with cleaning out the main cage without stepping over them which could disturb the whole process? Did you put anything down on the floor? could get a lot of wee and poo on it over several hours?
 
Sugarpuffs said:
Thank you both. The bathroom is an option; the cage is in the bathroom. The downside to it is not sure if it counts as "neutral territory" as the older one has used it as her "run" from time to time so it's not totally "new" to her. Also, it's in the way of getting on with cleaning out the main cage without stepping over them which could disturb the whole process? Did you put anything down on the floor? could get a lot of wee and poo on it over several hours?
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My kitchen is occasionally used as floor time for my piggies too but I don't really have any other options :lol!: and I've only had one bonding not work. I usually use a couple of large towels to cover most of the area otherwise you are right... it can get quite messy. I usually end up walking through them to get to the sink etc it takes longer as you have to be careful and usually I end up with Daisy climbing on my feet to see if I have more veggies for her :))
 
Lady Kelly said:
My kitchen is occasionally used as floor time for my piggies too but I don't really have any other options :lol!: and I've only had one bonding not work. I usually use a couple of large towels to cover most of the area otherwise you are right... it can get quite messy. I usually end up walking through them to get to the sink etc it takes longer as you have to be careful and usually I end up with Daisy climbing on my feet to see if I have more veggies for her :))
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Lol! I guess I'm still not sure really whether the bathroom floor is any more neutral than a cleaned out, rearranged cage. Wish I could see life through their eyes! What happened in your bonding that did not work out? And some people talk about it taking many hours, even days. I can't leave them on the floor that long.
 
Sugarpuffs said:
Lol! I guess I'm still not sure really whether the bathroom floor is any more neutral than a cleaned out, rearranged cage. Wish I could see life through their eyes! What happened in your bonding that did not work out? And some people talk about it taking many hours, even days. I can't leave them on the floor that long.
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In my experience with baby piggies is that bonding is done real quick. Both times I've done it its been less than an hour. Sows tend to be easier than boars unless you have a particularly fussy older sow. The one bond that didn't work it was my neutered boar and the new one that didn't get on. They just kept getting into circling fights, I think she didn't know how to react to his advances and let him continually chase her then reared on him in what I believe was fear aggression. I've had two bonds that took over 1 day but that was with a late sow called Jemima who was particularly awkward/stubborn/fussy, she was my asbo piggy :))
 
How did you manage the one that took a long time? And what was happening during that time to make you think that it needed more time?
 
Sugarpuffs said:
How did you manage the one that took a long time? And what was happening during that time to make you think that it needed more time?
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There was just wariness from Isobel. Jemima and Isobel had had a tiff before and I had split the group into two pairs but after Bumble passed I wanted to get Isobel back into the group and purposely left it longer as my lot are outdoor piggies and keeping them in a plastic paddling pool indoors was much easier to keep an eye on them.
 
What's the smallest space do you think that can use for bonding two year old sow and baby? Looks like I really need to get planning this carefully particulalry with Christmas coming up.
 
Sugarpuffs said:
What's the smallest space do you think that can use for bonding two year old sow and baby? Looks like I really need to get planning this carefully particulalry with Christmas coming up.
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I would say minimum size would be the size of their cage but obviously the more you can give them the better. When I first bonded Daisy with Poppy (when poppy was 6 weeks) it was a rush job because I wanted to quarantine poppy but overnight she didn't move and barely ate (cos she needed a companion). So I just stuck Daisy in the cage with her and left them for a few hours. It was tense going away for two nights knowing it could all go wrong but luckily they were fine. Daisy took on a mothering role and actually looked out for poppy when I bonded them back with the other two
 
Sugarpuffs said:
Hello, we have a 7 ? week old baby girl that we want to bond with a 2 year old girl who was bereaved last week. Our cage is an open topped 4 x 2 grid C and C cage. We bought the baby girl last Saturday and since this Tuesday they have been living in half of the cage each with a grille down the middle. So they can see, smell and hear one another.

Is it possible to sort of skip a stage out of the usual recommendations for moving to them living completely together in the whole cage without the divider? What I am thinking of is to move them out into separate carriers while I do a total clean of the cage and take out the dividing grille. Then put them both in together to the clean and rearranged cage - rather than finding another place which is neutral territory for them to first spend several hours together. Is this a really bad idea for some reason?

The reason I'm thinking of doing it this way is because creating safe neutral territory elsewhere, where we can keep a good eye on them, is not straighforward this time of the year - the places I might have used in the summer are very draughty this time of year and probably not conducive to them feeling relaxed and happy to get to know one another.
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I wouldn't recommend your method, but you can use a traditional cage top (cleaned) or use C&C grids or run panels to make a makeshift indoors bonding run.
Here are some ideas: Bedding For Guinea Pigs - Overview
 
Wiebke said:
I wouldn't recommend your method, but you can use a traditional cage top (cleaned) or use C&C grids or run panels to make a makeshift indoors bonding run.

Here are some ideas: Bedding For Guinea Pigs - Overview
Click to expand...
Thank you! Is that because no matter hard one tries to clean up and rearrange the cage, it will still feel like the older girl's territory? Makes sense. Do you think the floor in that same room will be ok ( the older one does go on it from time to time) or would we better off in a completely different room of the house?
 
Sugarpuffs said:
Thank you! Is that because no matter hard one tries to clean up and rearrange the cage, it will still feel like the older girl's territory? Makes sense. Do you think the floor in that same room will be ok ( the older one does go on it from time to time) or would we better off in a completely different room of the house?
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Yes, it is a territory/invasion issue.
 
Good luck with your bonding and hope it all goes smoothly! Keep us updated 😊
 
Well we put them on "neutral territory" for about 3 hours this evening so I hope we got it right. They are now in the cage without a divider. We put two cardboard tunnels in the neutral area - not sure if we were supposed to do this or not but the baby likes to have somewhere to hide and we were a bit scared to deny her that. There was no nap time or snuggles or any really overt sign they had clicked .......... but nothing really terrible either, so I'm not really sure. There's some clear bossing of the baby by the older one in more ways than one. I'm hoping these are just normal asserting dominance signs and it all works out. The baby seems keener on the older one than vice versa. Can you have a happy pair of guinea pigs where there isn't the physical cosiness that a lot of you describe?
 
Sugarpuffs said:
Well we put them on "neutral territory" for about 3 hours this evening so I hope we got it right. They are now in the cage without a divider. We put two cardboard tunnels in the neutral area - not sure if we were supposed to do this or not but the baby likes to have somewhere to hide and we were a bit scared to deny her that. There was no nap time or snuggles or any really overt sign they had clicked .......... but nothing really terrible either, so I'm not really sure. There's some clear bossing of the baby by the older one in more ways than one. I'm hoping these are just normal asserting dominance signs and it all works out. The baby seems keener on the older one than vice versa. Can you have a happy pair of guinea pigs where there isn't the physical cosiness that a lot of you describe?
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It sounds very much par for what you expect at this stage. The dominance phase of the bonding is going to last up to two weeks, but the worst should be over within 1-3 days. You can find out more about it in the bonding guide. At this stage the dominant piggy is very much emphasising their private sphere and first choice in everything.

The cosiness you are looking for is for a large part a myth. A well bonded couple or group is by no means always snuggly. You have piggies that hang out together more, but my piggies at the best prefer to sleep near each other but generally not snuggled up, and some very much enjoy getting away from each other from time to time but they will still be unhappy when on their own!
This doesn't mean that they are less well bonded. It is more like you have families that do everything together and others where family members are more into doing their own stuff. It doesn't mean that one family is less happy or less supportive when it counts. It is just how works for them. ;)
 
Sounds like it is going well. I have five piggies (a pair and a trio) and they all like to sleep in their own place but will also hang out together. None of them really cuddle up but they do enjoy each others company. ❤️
 
+2 on the snuggly bit. I left 4 sow pups with their mom in a very large runner cage and have seen them nip on many occasions, whine, complain, chatter teeth (rarely), get in stare-offs, a brief fight complete with a flying jump kick (seriously, one sow pup jumped up in the air and kicked her sister with her back feet like something out of a Kung-Fu movie), back up to a corner after being chased and alternate their rear feet like a stomp (NOT rumble strutting), turn sideways to look bigger, take cheap shots at the bum of the one running away, to seeing a sow unfortunately surrounded while getting into it with one, then bouncing between everyone like a pinball as they all decided to be brats at the same time as she backed into them, to guarding a food bowl, kicking someone out of a hammock the other wanted, etc. etc.. All normal. When it stops being normal though is when they start drawing blood and have huge tufts of fur sticking to their mouths.

I will say though, they ALL respect the mom still. She just does whatever, and I have seen her and pup cohabiting the same hammock spot, container, etc. at times. And I can tell by sound whenever she puts one in it's place as they still emit a slightly different response to being "nipped" by her vs. each other. Hopefully your younger one will be submissive. Another thing to be aware of, it could take months.
 
My two will play together in fhe playpen - play in the same hay pile, chew the same chew toy, run about together, but in their hutch they don’t really come together st all, they choose to keep in separate beds etc
 
Thank you - that's reassuring to know that it's not every pair of guinea pigs apart from ours that are all loved up. Our older one wasn't particularly friendly with her previous friend either but they rubbed along fine and she seemed alone when the friend died.

The baby and the two year old still seem to be finding their feet together. I'm not sure how this is going to work food-wise as the older one is already too fat but to give the baby enough food we're probably going to end up overfeeding the older one as she gobbles everything up much faster than the baby.
 
Sugarpuffs said:
Thank you - that's reassuring to know that it's not every pair of guinea pigs apart from ours that are all loved up. Our older one wasn't particularly friendly with her previous friend either but they rubbed along fine and she seemed alone when the friend died.

The baby and the two year old still seem to be finding their feet together. I'm not sure how this is going to work food-wise as the older one is already too fat but to give the baby enough food we're probably going to end up overfeeding the older one as she gobbles everything up much faster than the baby.
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Hay needs to make up the biggest part of their diet, so as long as there are several hay piles which are refreshed regularly, then your baby will get enough food.
For dry food and veggies, scatter piles around and/or use multiple food bowls, that way, your baby will be able to find some food as your adult can’t be in several places are once!
 
Thank you all. They seem to get along fine. They seem to have settled in to life together - I don't get the impression they irritate one another. Baby is cute and approaches the two year old girl reasonably often and does not get rebuffed any more; the two year old just minds her own business really but I'd say that the little one is reassured by the existence of the two year old and the two year old isn't just standing waiting at the edge quite often as she did after her previous cagemate had died.
 
That’s great! Sounds like things are going well! My 2 don’t cuddle and aren’t really ever that close. They have been together for 2 months now. They lie near each other sometimes but mostly keep themselves to themselves. Whereas before my Joey died, the 2 piggies were really close and didn’t like to be apart! I think it’s all about personality and they are just all so different.
 
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