New to guinea pigs- question about dominance help

ReecesNutella

ReecesNutella

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Hello,

We adopted 2 rescue male, neutered, litter-mate guinea pigs aged approx. 2 years old when we got them in August, 2020.

All has been fine until about a month ago. Very happily living in a 5ft indoor home, with outdoor access & eating well BUT Increasingly one guinea pig Nutella has been hiding in the "house" at end of cage, this has escalated, this weekend, to him sitting facing a corner & seems very subdued & still. On the other hand Reeces his brother has become more active, grabbing food, blocking hay etc & in the last couple of days I've seen Reeces attempting to mount Nutella & is very sniffy & vocal.

Is this "spring fever"? Dominance suddenly kicking in even though they've always lived together? They seem better outside in their run but Nutella is still quieter. Any ideas, tips, links to threads if anyone has any expertise much appreciated. Both were checked by a vet this week & all physically ok.

Thank you!
Newish guinea pig owner feeling totally out of depth!
 
One of my boys gets spring hormones and becomes a bit of a nightmare! It’s not connected to how long they’ve been together - it’s simply hormones which come and go. When my dominant becomes hormonal, both piggies take it very well, the submissive does not become subdued, both continue to eat normally etc. There is no change in their relationship whatsoever.

Mounting is normal but if things become excessive, one is no longer being allowed to eat and starts to lose weight, becomes depressed etc, then it can be a sign of bullying and a dysfunctional relationship.

However, before assuming a problem in their bond when you notice such a change in behaviour, you should first consider a health issue. A change in behaviour can be a sign of one not feeling well, it can cause the other to exert dominance. I would switch from the routine weekly weight checks to instead weighing Nutella daily so you can keep a close eye on his hay intake. Reduced hay intake care be down to an illness and he should be seen by a vet. If he is given a clean bill of health then it’s only then and if thr behaviour continues that its possible their relationship is having problems.

Bonds In Trouble
 
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Many thanks. Really useful to hear how dominance is for others.
We visited our vet yesterday who said all was "physically well" he checked Nutella's teeth, abdomen etc. And apparently Nutella ate some grass with him. The vet suggested separating them but I know that comes with its own issues.
Good tip re daily weighing thanks. Feeling quite worried/sad today that there is, a possibly health issue brewing & that Nutella apparently isn't at all happy, have always had rescue dogs & cats & this is our first smaller animals.
Thanks
 
It may be something and nothing - don’t be overly concerned right at this moment - things may settle down in a few days if it is just spring hormones. Normally when my two do it, it doesn’t last long but it isn’t constant. Dex kind of gets this look on his face as if to say ‘here we go again’ while Popcorn goes on a mounting rampage for a little while!

I would definitely keep a much closer eye on his weight though - it is your early warning sign of illness but also of a bond issue whereby he isn’t being allowed to eat as much as he needs to.

So, if a health issue has definitely been ruled out, then a trial separation is an option as it enables them/you to determine what is going on. If during a temporary separation the under pig (So Nutella in your case) perks up, eats more, comes out and explores more, then it is a sign he no longer wants to be with Reece’s and that their bond is not working. (the dominant piggy is always going to seem upset by a separation but it is not their reaction you go by). Therefore, living as neighbours is likely to be the outcome. You can try a reintroduction, and it will become obvious in a short space of time normally, whether in fact they were happier apart.
 
ReecesNutella said:
Many thanks. Really useful to hear how dominance is for others.
We visited our vet yesterday who said all was "physically well" he checked Nutella's teeth, abdomen etc. And apparently Nutella ate some grass with him. The vet suggested separating them but I know that comes with its own issues.
Good tip re daily weighing thanks. Feeling quite worried/sad today that there is, a possibly health issue brewing & that Nutella apparently isn't at all happy, have always had rescue dogs & cats & this is our first smaller animals.
Thanks
Click to expand...

Hi!

Just keep an eye on the situation. Please take the time to read this guide here. It explains all about weekly health monitoring; when to switch to monitoring daily and when/how quickly to see a vet. It also explains how you can feel whether your boys are still a good weight for their individual size (Heft or BMI hands-on check) or whether they are over-or underweight. You will also find lots more interesting and helpful information in the guide, which looks at all aspects connected with weighing and weight.
Here is the link: Weight - Monitoring and Management

Both guide links in this thread are part of our pretty comprehensive useful information resource, our New Owners guide collection, which you may want to bookmark, browse, read and re-read at need; it's not just helpful but there will be some stuff that you haven't come across before and that you may find fascinating: Getting Started - New Owners' Most Helpful Guides

Another link worth bookmarking is our Emergency, Crisis and Bridging Care information link so you have got all the relevant information easily available in a pinch: Emergency Resources and Critical Illness Care - Contents list and subforum link

The wild ancestor species to our own domesticated guinea pig species (happened around 3000-6000 years ago) have a distinct breeding season over the summer months. This time of the year marks the start of it. It is the sows who choose which boar they want to associate with; becoming a 'husboar' is the dream of any boar of course. The competition is tough.
While farm/pet piggies can have babies at any time of year due to a much easier and more regular food supply, the old instincts are still there. ;)
 
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Thank you for all your time in sending the links & other help/advice. Weighing guide so useful already
In amongst getting our 3 children ready for new term we made a see through separation for their outdoor run & our submissive Nutella perked up a little and ate some hay & drank. Still subdued. We did this for a short period.
The rescue owner has also given some tips. I will keep weighing daily & trying things & also think I may need to try & locate a vet with GP specialist knowledge?
70g lost this week .
Thanks again
 
ReecesNutella said:
Thank you for all your time in sending the links & other help/advice. Weighing guide so useful already
In amongst getting our 3 children ready for new term we made a see through separation for their outdoor run & our submissive Nutella perked up a little and ate some hay & drank. Still subdued. We did this for a short period.
The rescue owner has also given some tips. I will keep weighing daily & trying things & also think I may need to try & locate a vet with GP specialist knowledge?
70g lost this week .
Thanks again
Click to expand...

Can you move Nutella next to the other piggies with more interaction?

Here is our vet locator: Vet Locator
 
We have ensured they are always in the same run or indoor cage but have divided these throughout the day, with CC panels to see if Nutella eats/drinks more. Not a long-term solution of course.
Naively I never even considered a pair who'd always lived together could have issues & how extreme it could be. They were neutered by the rescue at 2 before we removed them.
Thank you for the vets locator. Our contact at the rescue did mention the training provided to vets for small animals isn't always comprehensive.
Thanks again
 
Wiebke said:
Can you move Nutella next to the other piggies with more interaction?

Here is our vet locator: Vet Locator
Click to expand...
Just wanted to say Anne OMeara the guinea pig expert at Goddards branch in Ewelll is sadly on sick leave but we saw Chrissy there instead. She has kept Nutella in for nursing overnight, not sure how things will go sadly..she has her own guinea pigs and was lovely & I think knowledgeable.
Thanks for enabling us to find a vet with GP experience.
 
ReecesNutella said:
Just wanted to say Anne OMeara the guinea pig expert at Goddards branch in Ewelll is sadly on sick leave but we saw Chrissy there instead. She has kept Nutella in for nursing overnight, not sure how things will go sadly..she has her own guinea pigs and was lovely & I think knowledgeable.
Thanks for enabling us to find a vet with GP experience.
Click to expand...

Fingers firmly crossed for Nutella! At least he is in good and experienced hands - that is all you can do as a caring owner. The rest is unfortunately always out of your control.
 
Hello,
Nutella sadly didn't make it through the night at the emergency vets. When the vet called to tell us she said his body temperature never improved/nor could they syringe feed him.

As I'm sure every responsible owner does after a loss & esp as Nutella was only 2ish, I'm finding it hard not to feel we maybe did something to contribute to what happened.
Perhaps not noticing the dominance issues/weight loss early enough, or perhaps starting an hour or 2 in their outdoor run when the temperature wasn't quite stable. Or finding a more GP aware vet at the start!

Reeces his brother seems very much ok, which is helpful but having read some of the guides here perhaps something had already changed in their relationship. We will keep our eyes on him.

Thanks again for your time in responding to us.
 
I’m so sorry for your loss. Don’t blame yourself. You did all you could. They are so good at hiding illness that sometimes we don’t realise until it’s too late. Take care of yourself.
 
ReecesNutella said:
Hello,
Nutella sadly didn't make it through the night at the emergency vets. When the vet called to tell us she said his body temperature never improved/nor could they syringe feed him.

As I'm sure every responsible owner does after a loss & esp as Nutella was only 2ish, I'm finding it hard not to feel we maybe did something to contribute to what happened.
Perhaps not noticing the dominance issues/weight loss early enough, or perhaps starting an hour or 2 in their outdoor run when the temperature wasn't quite stable. Or finding a more GP aware vet at the start!

Reeces his brother seems very much ok, which is helpful but having read some of the guides here perhaps something had already changed in their relationship. We will keep our eyes on him.

Thanks again for your time in responding to us.
Click to expand...

BIG HUGS

I am very sorry for your loss.

Unfortunately, a low body temperature is usually the sign of the body closing down in a guinea pig. :(
Please try not to beat yourself up too badly. It is always harder to get over the guilt loop when it happens with a young piggy (as I know from my own experiences) as you somehow feel it must be your fault; even when it is clearly not. Some piggies sadly have got a short straw when it comes to genetic inheritance but it can sometimes start very subtle and be impossible to pin down.

While vet knowledge has made huge strides in the last decade, small pets are can very difficult to diagnose and their fast metabolism is very much against them. Guinea pigs are classed as exotics with other small rodents so they fall very much into the gap between not featuring much on a general vet's curriculum and being too 'common' for a real exotics buff. While there is now a bit more research into guinea pigs, they are still lagging far behind other pet species. Whether an exotics vet could really have saved Nutella is very much an open question. Take consolation that you and the vet nurses have at least tried their very best for him. :(

It is very likely that the change in behaviour and dynamics was at least partly down to the developing underlying health problem but without any noticeable symptoms, it was downright impossible to pin down. We all wish for a diagnostics tool the equivalent of a crystal ball...
Please try not to fall into the classic trap of over-analyzing from hindsight while in fact you, your vet and we all have been treading a maze very much blindfolded. You can always follow a path back into the past but you can never scout ahead so you have to always base any decisions on what you know at any given moment in time; and you should never blame yourself on executive decisions based on incomplete data.

As a human, you can always only do your best - and you have done that. The rest is entirely out of your control. Try to take whatever constructive lesson you can take from it and be sad and upset as much as you need; but please try not to blame yourself for what is simply what I call 'cosmic bad luck' - all the stuff that nobody can foresee, cannot prevent, all the things down to bad timing, unlucky coincidences and several factors playing into each other etc. Stuff simply happens that is nobody's fault. As a good owner, all you can do is to give your piggies the happy todays they measure their quality of life by but you can never choose when and what from they die.

Nutella will always have a place in your heart if you let him.

Here is the link to the information you have mentioned:
Death, Dying, Terminal Illness, Grieving and Bereaved Companions: Information and Support for Owners and Their Children
 
Thanks for replying & for your wise words. Nuts will definitely always have a place in my & my daughters' hearts. We miss him & are pleased he came to live with us

We will have to think about Reeces & what's best for him & his best-life too going forwards too. I will get back in touch with the rescue for their thoughts & look at the guides on here. Hopefully we can find a way to ensure he doesn't have to be a lone piggie.

Thanks again
 
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