Next steps bonding

[Deleted member 131797]

Hello all,

Although I’ve never posted before I’d count myself as a relatively knowledgeable and experienced guinea pig owner, and have read the relevant manuals. Having done many bondings/ introductions before, I am stuck in my current one.

I currently have a Boy “R” (neutered) of approx 3, a girl “A” of approx 2 years old. I lost my two older (5 and 6.5) female piggies which were part of the group during 2018. (Everyone rescues) I have adopted two girls (exact age unknown, probably around 9 months) with the view of setting up a herd again. They don’t have names yet, but main problem is with the Sheltie so I’ll refer to her as “S”.

Please assume I am following guidance from this forum - quarantine, proper sexing, neutral territory (bathroom floor) no hidies etc.

Bonding has not gone well with my original girl “A” taking a fear aggressive stance towards S, who has responded quite aggressively back (but doesn’t instigate aggression).

It hasn’t gone into an all out fight yet because I’ve stepped in when it started to look like that. Eventually everyone was exhausted and napped but the issues are there. I am not convinced these two are going to get on (in which case I will keep two cages) but not sure at what point to give up (I don’t really want to wait until blood is drawn!) and accept that faith.

I currently have my big c&c cage split in two (5x2 + 2x2 loft for A & R, and 3x2 for new pigs - if I need to permanently split then I will rearrange the whole thing). They can see and interact through bars, but at the moment they are all resting and settling again.

Question 1: I plan to do another bathroom floor session after work today. Is that the right thing to do, and how many times do I try that before accepting they won’t get on?

Question 2: should I try a floor session with just the two difficult girls, I think my boy and the other girl will follow suit.

Question 3: Is it right to keep them in separated cages, and/or will that undo any positives from the bathroom floor session?

I don’t think they are simply establishing dominance. I don’t think they like each other although may tolerate each other. The cage in full 5x2+3x2+2x2 should be big enough for 4 tolerating pigs. The two girls I lost in 2018 always kept to themselves. I don’t expect everyone to cuddle.

The reason I still have hope is because they all did eventually settle and when I had the two A & S on my lap they have no qualms with each other at all.

Sorry, I’ve never had a bonding this difficult before. My boy is bewildered by all the aggression and is just excited by the new girls, the other new girl keeps to herself still (shy, though ironically ok with humans).

Picture taken after everyone exhausted from bonding session.

Black piggy = boy
Middle piggy = A
Two new piggies at the back

 

[sport_billy]

Welcome to the forum, sorry to hear you are having issues. I am going to tag @Wiebke into this she is very knowledgeable at bondings and guinea pig behaviour

 

[Deleted member 131797]

Welcome to the forum, sorry to hear you are having issues. I am going to tag @Wiebke into this she is very knowledgeable at bondings and guinea pig behaviour

Thank you! I’m sorry if it somewhat sounded like I know everything (clearly I don’t!) just thought I’d make it easier by explaining I am following guidance but it may just not work this time. Pig A is a bit of a special case anyway, didn’t come from a good home and took a very long time before trusting anyone.

 

[sport_billy]

No don't be silly! it helps to be clear saying you'd read the guides etc... means that people can give advice straight away knowing you are already doing the recommended things.

You have also wrote it in a concise way using Pig 'A' etc which helps not having to refer back to names etc... However at somepoint I'd love to know who is who... They are very beautiful piggies, keep checking back as Wiebke is very busy but her advice is often well worth the wait. Hopefully also some of our more experienced members in bonding will be around also

 

[Deleted member 131797]

No don't be silly! it helps to be clear saying you'd read the guides etc... means that people can give advice straight away knowing you are already doing the recommended things.

You have also wrote it in a concise way using Pig 'A' etc which helps not having to refer back to names etc... However at somepoint I'd love to know who is who... They are very beautiful piggies, keep checking back as Wiebke is very busy but her advice is often well worth the wait. Hopefully also some of our more experienced members in bonding will be around also

The black piggy at the front is the boy, Ragnar. Adopted from rescue in summer (as owners going on holiday). Had to have serious surgery 4 days after I adopted him. Very sweet and boyish.

Then comes Arya (“A”) (the troublesome) (also, in case anyone notices the stripe by her white lips, this is not the crusty disease but her colouring!). Troubled background. Dumped at at the rescue with disabled Babies when still very young herself.

Then the two new piggies in the back (the quiet one on the left, and the troublesome Sheltie on the right) they don’t have names just yet! Dumped at the rescue with a vague story...

 

[Merab]

Welcome to the forum
The piggies are all gorgeous.
I can’t add anything except support for your bonding

 

[Wiebke]

Hello all,

Although I’ve never posted before I’d count myself as a relatively knowledgeable and experienced guinea pig owner, and have read the relevant manuals. Having done many bondings/ introductions before, I am stuck in my current one.

I currently have a Boy “R” (neutered) of approx 3, a girl “A” of approx 2 years old. I lost my two older (5 and 6.5) female piggies which were part of the group during 2018. (Everyone rescues) I have adopted two girls (exact age unknown, probably around 9 months) with the view of setting up a herd again. They don’t have names yet, but main problem is with the Sheltie so I’ll refer to her as “S”.

Please assume I am following guidance from this forum - quarantine, proper sexing, neutral territory (bathroom floor) no hidies etc.

Bonding has not gone well with my original girl “A” taking a fear aggressive stance towards S, who has responded quite aggressively back (but doesn’t instigate aggression).

It hasn’t gone into an all out fight yet because I’ve stepped in when it started to look like that. Eventually everyone was exhausted and napped but the issues are there. I am not convinced these two are going to get on (in which case I will keep two cages) but not sure at what point to give up (I don’t really want to wait until blood is drawn!) and accept that faith.

I currently have my big c&c cage split in two (5x2 + 2x2 loft for A & R, and 3x2 for new pigs - if I need to permanently split then I will rearrange the whole thing). They can see and interact through bars, but at the moment they are all resting and settling again.

Question 1: I plan to do another bathroom floor session after work today. Is that the right thing to do, and how many times do I try that before accepting they won’t get on?

Question 2: should I try a floor session with just the two difficult girls, I think my boy and the other girl will follow suit.

Question 3: Is it right to keep them in separated cages, and/or will that undo any positives from the bathroom floor session?

I don’t think they are simply establishing dominance. I don’t think they like each other although may tolerate each other. The cage in full 5x2+3x2+2x2 should be big enough for 4 tolerating pigs. The two girls I lost in 2018 always kept to themselves. I don’t expect everyone to cuddle.

The reason I still have hope is because they all did eventually settle and when I had the two A & S on my lap they have no qualms with each other at all.

Sorry, I’ve never had a bonding this difficult before. My boy is bewildered by all the aggression and is just excited by the new girls, the other new girl keeps to herself still (shy, though ironically ok with humans).

Picture taken after everyone exhausted from bonding session.

Black piggy = boy
Middle piggy = A
Two new piggies at the back

Hi and welcome!

It is always difficult when sows do not gel. Every rescue can tell you that sow dating is so much trickier than boar dating - they gel or or fail pretty much straight forwardly on the whole.

Your established sow is obviously feeling threatened in her position by the top lady of the new pair - dominance issues always come down between piggies on adjoining ranks in the hierarchy while the other piggies keep out of it as much as possible while the hierarchy is being gradually established from the top down (or not, if the process is getting stuck at any stage).

In my experience, it doesn't really matter what you do - if there is a pretty instant flash up of problems right away as the bonding moves into the hierarchy sort out that is being answered by the other party, a bonding is very unlikely to work out successfully in the long term.
You can try and see whether the two girls will come to an agreement, but don't hold your breath.

I have pushed through the occasional bonding if it stayed within parameters but have generally found that the old grudge match kept flaring up again and again and could on occasion destabilise and stress out the whole group, especially when the sows were higher ranking ones. You lose it latest when the underpiggies side with their leaders and make a joined front against any new piggies. There doesn't have to be any full on aggression involved.

I have a room full of tricky sows with their assorted acceptable companion, but several of them are pretty much on their last chance saloon in terms of finding a match and are borderline unbondable. At one point I had four bereaved older sows none of which would go with any of the others. Three of them I could eventually either pair up with another one (after 9 months) and another one finally consented to live with her sister and her toy boy husboar at the third attempt, again some months down the line.

It so much depends on the individual personalities and on the dynamics between them. The longer I am doing this, the more I am convinced that being a human match maker must be a doddle comparing to piggy bonding!

Personally, I would keep the two pairs as neighbours and see again how things are some time down the line.

 

[Deleted member 131797]

Hi and welcome!

It is always difficult when sows do not gel. Every rescue can tell you that sow dating is so much trickier than boar dating - they gel or or fail pretty much straight forwardly on the whole.

Your established sow is obviously feeling threatened in her position by the top lady of the new pair - dominance issues always come down between piggies on adjoining ranks in the hierarchy while the other piggies keep out of it as much as possible while the hierarchy is being gradually established from the top down (or not, if the process is getting stuck at any stage).

In my experience, it doesn't really matter what you do - if there is a pretty instant flash up of problems right away as the bonding moves into the hierarchy sort out that is being answered by the other party, a bonding is very unlikely to work out successfully in the long term.
You can try and see whether the two girls will come to an agreement, but don't hold your breath.

I have pushed through the occasional bonding if it stayed within parameters but have generally found that the old grudge match kept flaring up again and again and could on occasion destabilise and stress out the whole group, especially when the sows were higher ranking ones. You lose it latest when the underpiggies side with their leaders and make a joined front against any new piggies. There doesn't have to be any full on aggression involved.

I have a room full of tricky sows with their assorted acceptable companion, but several of them are pretty much on their last chance saloon in terms of finding a match and are borderline unbondable. At one point I had four bereaved older sows none of which would go with any of the others. Three of them I could eventually either pair up with another one (after 9 months) and another one finally consented to live with her sister and her toy boy husboar at the third attempt, again some months down the line.

It so much depends on the individual personalities and on the dynamics between them. The longer I am doing this, the more I am convinced that being a human match maker must be a doddle comparing to piggy bonding!

Personally, I would keep the two pairs as neighbours and see again how things are some time down the line.

Thank you! I think that conclusion is what I was starting to feel, thank you very much for responding, it’s good to have your opinion in case I’d missed something. Will see how it goes, otherwise I’ll settle for 2x happy pig pairs separately.

 

[Wiebke]

No matter how experienced you are, each bonding is different and unpredictable. I've had it happen so often that a pairing that looked perfect on paper has gone haywire in reality.

Where experience comes in is in spotting earlier from the more subtle exchanges and body languages whether a bonding is heading in the direction or not, and whether it is still in the 'maybe' zone or has already moved past it into the 'they are not part of us' category.

When you are dealing with fear aggressive sows, baby girls up to about 4 months are best as they are still desperate for companionship. Once you get teenagers, then things get a lot more dodgy, especially if you have a dominant or a very confident one.

 

[Deleted member 131797]

No matter how experienced you are, each bonding is different and unpredictable. I've had it happen so often that a pairing that looked perfect on paper has gone haywire in reality.

Where experience comes in is in spotting earlier from the more subtle exchanges and body languages whether a bonding is heading in the direction or not, and whether it is still in the 'maybe' zone or has already moved past it into the 'they are not part of us' category.

When you are dealing with fear aggressive sows, baby girls up to about 4 months are best as they are still desperate for companionship. Once you get teenagers, then things get a lot more dodgy, especially if you have a dominant or a very confident one.

Yes, very much agree to all you’ve said. I think it was a gamble this time as Arya was the last one (before the two new pigs) added to the pack and therefore she was the underling when I got her in summer 2017. Since the eldest pigs have passed away, and the boy isn’t dominant (just enthusiastic about everything) she’s now taken the dominant role and I’d never before tried to add a new underling to her - so to speak.

Whatever happens, it would be a shame if they can’t be a herd but at least there are two less pigs in a rescue and with a good home.

 

[Wiebke]

Yes, very much agree to all you’ve said. I think it was a gamble this time as Arya was the last one (before the two new pigs) added to the pack and therefore she was the underling when I got her in summer 2017. Since the eldest pigs have passed away, and the boy isn’t dominant (just enthusiastic about everything) she’s now taken the dominant role and I’d never before tried to add a new underling to her - so to speak.

Whatever happens, it would be a shame if they can’t be a herd but at least there are two less pigs in a rescue and with a good home.

My stance, too. Whenever I adopt some special piggies from a rescue further afield, I always make sure that I have a plan B in case any bonding doesn't work out.