Nose Bleed And Bladder Infection....

[Stig]

Hi all

Wondering if anyone can give me some advice with my poor ill little boy whose 4 1/2 years old.

This is the story so far:-

2nd august - found blood in urine so took him to the vets who prescribed him with baytrill for 1 week. He seemed to recover from this for 4 days after finishing the course of treatment. Eating fine but hardly drinking.

14th august - blood in urine again so yet again back to vets who said give him baytrill for 2 weeks and gave him metacam for the pain. Urine sample was given in and cultures grown from it which showed there was crystals in it and bacteria of some description but no clear cause as to what was going on.Eating fine but hardly drinking.

19th august - the blood in the urine reappeared so straight back up the vets who this time did an X-ray ( which showed only a small bladder) and put him on a 2 week course of septrim. Eating fine but hardly drinking and very lethargic.

26th august (today) - I get a phone call from my mother in law to say he has just had a full on nose bleed. So up to the vets he went with her as I was at work and they now reckon he has a chest infection on top of the bladder thingy as he has a wheezy chest. So now he is on baytrill for 5 days as well as finishing his course of septrim. Eating fine but hardly drinking and very lethargic.

Is it just an unlucky piggie or does anyone think that this is more of a coincidence?

Any feedback / comments / advice really appreciated as I'm not sure I trust what the vet has said as I have been mucked around so much by them trying to chase results etc. Help!

 

[Pebble]

Sorry this has been so traumatic.
Where are you located and who is your vet?
Need this info before saying anythings else.....(and can have plenty to say in responses to help your piggie)
xx

 

[Stig]

Southend, essex and been going to the earls hall group based in southend as I've moved away from where I was originally registered with him.

 

[Stig]

Sorry this has been so traumatic.
Where are you located and who is your vet?
Need this info before saying anythings else.....(and can have plenty to say in responses to help your piggie)
xx

Oh and his weight has dropped from 1.3kg on 2nd august to 1.085kg as of this morning.

 

[sport_billy]

Sorry to hear you are going through such a rough time.

Tagging in @Pebble for your reply and also @helen105281

The x-ray will have shown up any bladder stones so that rules a nasty out, so hopefully the Urinary Tract Issues is a stubborn infection that will clear up with AB's

I have never heard of a nose bleed of a piggy Hopefully one of our H&I notable posters will be around shortly so please keep checking back.

You could try syringing a little water from a 1ml syringe very slowly allowing the piggy to drink to get the fluid uptake in or make sure the veggies are extra wet when feeding this will ensure that they are getting enough water in them. Eating is a good sign.

Welcome to the forum, sorry it is in such bad circumstances

 

[helen105281]

I will leave this mainly to Pebble as she had some thoughts last night and I don't want to confuse matters.

We have had a few nose bleeds on the forum the last few months though, have a quick search and that may bring up some more information.

I am wondering if it would be worth getting an ultrasound done on the bladder as it tends to show up different things to an xray. For example, 2 of my pigs had an ultrasound which showed up inflammation of the bladder and they were diagnosed with Interstitial cystitis. They are now on daily vegan glucosamine and a restricted diet.

I also agree with Sport Billy though that it could be a stubborn infection, and may need a different type of antibiotics or a longer period on them.

As for the chest infection, I would think he is most likely run down from everything else that is going on and this is when other illnesses can strike. Did the vet say if there was any fluid on his chest?

 

[Stig]

Sorry to hear you are going through such a rough time.

Tagging in @Pebble for your reply and also @helen105281

The x-ray will have shown up any bladder stones so that rules a nasty out, so hopefully the Urinary Tract Issues is a stubborn infection that will clear up with AB's

I have never heard of a nose bleed of a piggy Hopefully one of our H&I notable posters will be around shortly so please keep checking back.

You could try syringing a little water from a 1ml syringe very slowly allowing the piggy to drink to get the fluid uptake in or make sure the veggies are extra wet when feeding this will ensure that they are getting enough water in them. Eating is a good sign.

Welcome to the forum, sorry it is in such bad circumstances

Thanks - I've just spoken to the vet who gave him the X-ray and I have an appointment tomorrow afternoon.

He his eating fine, not drinking unless I syringe it and generally doesn't seem like his happy usual self.

Anything anyone can suggest that I ask the vet as I have my partner thinking he is fine when I know he isn't and I'm really starting to hit my head against a brick wall!

 

[Stig]

I will leave this mainly to Pebble as she had some thoughts last night and I don't want to confuse matters.

We have had a few nose bleeds on the forum the last few months though, have a quick search and that may bring up some more information.

I am wondering if it would be worth getting an ultrasound done on the bladder as it tends to show up different things to an xray. For example, 2 of my pigs had an ultrasound which showed up inflammation of the bladder and they were diagnosed with Interstitial cystitis. They are now on daily vegan glucosamine and a restricted diet.

I also agree with Sport Billy though that it could be a stubborn infection, and may need a different type of antibiotics or a longer period on them.

As for the chest infection, I would think he is most likely run down from everything else that is going on and this is when other illnesses can strike. Did the vet say if there was any fluid on his chest?

Thanks for the reply!

I wasn't at the vet yesterday due to travelling back from work - my mother in law took my boy. The vet said he had a crackle and was wheezing but apart from that didn't say much else. Hence wanting a second opinion and going to see my more trusted vet tomorrow. I hadn't realised it was an appointment with the vet who usually fobs us off and not the thorough one!

 

[Pebble]

Dealing with each symptom in turn:

Blood in urine - agree with Helen re possibly either a stubborn infection or interstitial cystitis/bladder inflammation - I had one male piggie who had this (shown at post-mortem after he was PTS for a different issue) and he used to bleed copiously in his wee - so badly that sometime he had to have a Vit K injection to help blood clotting. Your vet has diagnosed the crystals (which can be very sharp on the bladder lining wall) and also said a bacterial infection was cultured -

Bacterial urine infection - it might be worth doing another culture to isolate the organism and check for antibitoic sensitivity as there are several bugs that have been cultured from my pigs now that have built-up resistant to baytril and septrin. One particularly nasty bug (Pseudomonas) is only susceptible to gentamycin and other members of the same antibiotic family - we had a recent case of this on the forum where it was cultured from a bladder infection in someone's piggie.

Nose bleeds - one nostril would suggest possible hay seed stuck. I've only ever had one pig bleed copiously from both nostrils and that was due to trauma - he knocked his nose on the side of the cage! Are you sure this is a proper nose bleed and that he hasn't got his nose bloody from burying it in his bloody wee/naughty bits a boys sometimes do?

Respiratory issues - It would be unusual, given the courses of antibiotics he is on already, to develop a bacterial chest infection without having accidentally inhaled (aspirated) a liquid of some kind. If he had an actual nose bleed, might he have inhaled some of the blood?. Or has he perhaps aspirated some of the antibiotic? It is important to identify if he has choked in any way whilst being given water/antibiotic/liquid of some kind by anyone - aspiration is always a risk when syringing anything into a piggy. Alternatively it could be a sign that both antibiotics are not being effective against the bugs and may need to be reviewed. He may also require some agressive treatment with a diuretic to help alleviate the inflammation and fluid accumulation within the lungs - especially important if the respiratory issues could be a result of aspiration.

Weight loss - may not be taking in enough food - but a sudden drop is more indicative of not enough fluids. The fact he is not drinking with a urinary issue worries me. Have you tried him with a bowl - maybe he is not happy with a bottle spout atm? Please also get your vet to check him tomorrow for signs of dehydration as sub-cutaneous fluids may be necessary (and that may perk him up as lethargy is often a sign of dehydration). In anhy case you need to weigh him daily and supplement with fluids and food by syringe if necessary.


I'm inclined to think he is an unlucky pig (It is not unusual for a pig with one illness to then develop other completely separate issues in a "cascade" because he is poorly - the pig with interstitial cystitis I mentioned above developed a rotten eye infection with a very nasty pseudomonas, and needed to have his eye removed - but because he was so poorly with the bladder issues we elected to PTS. Other pigs with urninary issues go on to develop dental and/or gut issues issues because they stop eating sufficient hay/fibre because of pain/poorliness),

However if you can rule out aspiration/inhalation of blood etc then you may wish to discuss with your vet the two other possible scenarios I can think of where all the symtpoms above are linked to one underlying condition:
a) a spreading infection of multi-drug resistant bacteria that are resistant to septrin and baytril - cultures of urine, throat swab, nasal swab would be helpful although limited because he is already on anitbiotics
b) another underlying condition such as lymphoma that again is gradually spreading through his system (I think this latter is unlikely and in any case there should probably be signs of swollen lymph nodes under his armpits - might be a good idea to get your vet to check).

As to your vets - the Vet surgeons names/qualifications aren't on the website so I can;t google their experience. I suggest you keep the appt with the vet you trust tomorrow but if you think you are not getting any further then the only one I have found is Lawton and STokes in Romford - and you would need to see the guy below
http://www.vets.uk.net/Staff/MartinLawton.htm

HTH
x

 

[Stig]

Dealing with each symptom in turn:

Blood in urine - agree with Helen re possibly either a stubborn infection or interstitial cystitis/bladder inflammation - I had one male piggie who had this (shown at post-mortem after he was PTS for a different issue) and he used to bleed copiously in his wee - so badly that sometime he had to have a Vit K injection to help blood clotting. Your vet has diagnosed the crystals (which can be very sharp on the bladder lining wall) and also said a bacterial infection was cultured -

Bacterial urine infection - it might be worth doing another culture to isolate the organism and check for antibitoic sensitivity as there are several bugs that have been cultured from my pigs now that have built-up resistant to baytril and septrin. One particularly nasty bug (Pseudomonas) is only susceptible to gentamycin and other members of the same antibiotic family - we had a recent case of this on the forum where it was cultured from a bladder infection in someone's piggie.

Nose bleeds - one nostril would suggest possible hay seed stuck. I've only ever had one pig bleed copiously from both nostrils and that was due to trauma - he knocked his nose on the side of the cage! Are you sure this is a proper nose bleed and that he hasn't got his nose bloody from burying it in his bloody wee/naughty bits a boys sometimes do?

Respiratory issues - It would be unusual, given the courses of antibiotics he is on already, to develop a bacterial chest infection without having accidentally inhaled (aspirated) a liquid of some kind. If he had an actual nose bleed, might he have inhaled some of the blood?. Or has he perhaps aspirated some of the antibiotic? It is important to identify if he has choked in any way whilst being given water/antibiotic/liquid of some kind by anyone - aspiration is always a risk when syringing anything into a piggy. Alternatively it could be a sign that both antibiotics are not being effective against the bugs and may need to be reviewed. He may also require some agressive treatment with a diuretic to help alleviate the inflammation and fluid accumulation within the lungs - especially important if the respiratory issues could be a result of aspiration.

Weight loss - may not be taking in enough food - but a sudden drop is more indicative of not enough fluids. The fact he is not drinking with a urinary issue worries me. Have you tried him with a bowl - maybe he is not happy with a bottle spout atm? Please also get your vet to check him tomorrow for signs of dehydration as sub-cutaneous fluids may be necessary (and that may perk him up as lethargy is often a sign of dehydration). In anhy case you need to weigh him daily and supplement with fluids and food by syringe if necessary.


I'm inclined to think he is an unlucky pig (It is not unusual for a pig with one illness to then develop other completely separate issues in a "cascade" because he is poorly - the pig with interstitial cystitis I mentioned above developed a rotten eye infection with a very nasty pseudomonas, and needed to have his eye removed - but because he was so poorly with the bladder issues we elected to PTS. Other pigs with urninary issues go on to develop dental and/or gut issues issues because they stop eating sufficient hay/fibre because of pain/poorliness),

However if you can rule out aspiration/inhalation of blood etc then you may wish to discuss with your vet the two other possible scenarios I can think of where all the symtpoms above are linked to one underlying condition:
a) a spreading infection of multi-drug resistant bacteria that are resistant to septrin and baytril - cultures of urine, throat swab, nasal swab would be helpful although limited because he is already on anitbiotics
b) another underlying condition such as lymphoma that again is gradually spreading through his system (I think this latter is unlikely and in any case there should probably be signs of swollen lymph nodes under his armpits - might be a good idea to get your vet to check).

As to your vets - the Vet surgeons names/qualifications aren't on the website so I can;t google their experience. I suggest you keep the appt with the vet you trust tomorrow but if you think you are not getting any further then the only one I have found is Lawton and STokes in Romford - and you would need to see the guy below
http://www.vets.uk.net/Staff/MartinLawton.htm

HTH
x

Evening - thank you for your reply!
As of two hours ago the blood in the urine has reappeared in his cage in patches so very happy I am back at the vets tomorrow!

The vet he saw yesterday said that he could see no sign of any hay / cuts etc and said it had been a nose bleed. My mother in law witnessed it happen so I know it wasn't bashing into anything either in his cage. He had literally had his meds and a treat of cucumber and she went to say goodbye to him as she was going work and saw the nose starting to bleed. She cleaned most of it up but didn't want to aggrivate it so left a little bit so the vet at least saw that.

The urine test was cultured but I was told that there wasn't a clear verdict as to what was going on - just that there was bacteria present and that it was a mixed bag is they couldn't do a sensitivity study on it or something like that.

I'm not sure if he has inhaled anything when we have been giving him his meds but he has had the occasional sneeze over the past week and a bit. He is very subdued tonight and has hidden in his house for most of the day after demolishing a bit of fresh food (cucumber and celery) that we have given him on top of his pellets.

The vet has said on each time that he looks in good condition and isn't dehydrated (not sure if this is because I've been giving him fluids by syringe since 2nd august). He seems to be eating fine just doesn't drink! Hence the puzzle of his weight loss when he is eating!

I'm really hoping that they can find out the underlying cause tomorrow cause I would hate to think my little boy is suffering. I'll see if I can get the vet to check his lymphnodes etc as you have suggested, but thanks for the detailed response!

 

[Pebble]

Completely off the wall question but is there any chance he has been outside/come into contact with rat bait recently?

 

[Stig]

Completely off the wall question but is there any chance he has been outside/come into contact with rat bait recently?

Hi - no chance what so ever. Since he has been ill I haven't let him be in his run without supervision and haven't heard / seen any issues with rats in our area (very high population of cats about!)

 

[Pebble]

Thanks - a long shot - but it would have been one possible explanation for the bleeding from various sites as it is an anti-coagulant.

Good luck at the vets tomorrow
x

 

[Stig]

Thanks - a long shot - but it would have been one possible explanation for the bleeding from various sites as it is an anti-coagulant.

Good luck at the vets tomorrow
x

Evening. The update as of today's visit to the vet is that he has put on a little bit of weight (few grams) and does not appear to be dehydrated but that could be because we are giving him syringes of water.

The vet examined him and can't see or hear anything wrong with his chest and when she touched his abdomen he did squeak but we don't know if it was pain or a get off squeak.

So stig is now back at the vets at 10:30 tomorrow for an ultra sound and if he doesn't give them a sample of urine during his visit they are going to draw some straight from his bladder and grow cultures.

So not quite back to square one....