Odd behaviour. Illness?

[Mon59]

Hi,

just wondered if anyone can help ? Or has has similar?
Two sisters. About 6 months. One a bit smallish but was gaining weight. Always kept together. 5x2 c&c . Another less sociable sow kept in 4x2 with divider.

Small sister crying and off food 1 week ago . Doesn’t interact with sister until chased then sits in the same position crying.

Did have slight diarrhoea 3 days ago and not grooming. Quite a bad smell also.
bathed her and took her to the Vet immediately.
-no injury.
- no tenderness anywhere
- vet got second opinion in the surgery and recommended keeping fluids up with a syringe. Hand feeding . Separated from others. Gave her some fluid by injection.

seemed a little better this morning so put her back with sister. Poop normal.

Back to crying and no interest in food. Only reacts to sister chasing gently chasing her . Just sat for an hour with her and no interest in anything.

if she was a human I would say nervous breakdown. Very distressing to see.

any ideas ?
sorry if this is the wrong thread as I have got into trouble before.

very grateful for any suggestions…..

 

[Mon59]

Another example.

if she stops reacting to sister by water bottle.. Has stopped under water bottle twice getting wet by pushing up ball bearing.

Doesn’t seem to care or move ..

 

[Piggies&buns]

I’m sorry to hear this.

is she still having diarrhoea? If so, please remove veg from the diet until poops normalise.
Have you switched to daily weight checks?
What have her weight checks during the time been showing?
Has she been syringe fed a recovery feed if she has been off her hay?
Have you tried giving any probiotics?

Medical issues always need to be investigated first, but has there been any sign of issues between the two of them?

 

[Mon59]

thank you very much . Weight was ok. 5% loss since episode.

would consider recovery feeding but wondering about relationships?

behaviour looks more like that sort of problem.
she looks terrified….

no fights but when should I separate?

grateful in advance..

 

[Piggies&buns]

How much weight has she actually lost in grams?
If it is 50g or more then it is essential she is syringe fed to stop weight loss.

If there is no improvement in her condition then seek further veterinary advice.

These medical considerations need to come before any bond considerations. An illness has to be completely ruled out first.
An illness in itself can sometimes be something which upsets a bond.

Before separating you need to determine a dysfunctional bond. You do that through a temporary separation for a few days. If a bullied piggy perks up while away from a companion then that can be a sign that they aren’t compatible. You then go through the neutral territory reintroduction (neutral territory always needs to be used for a reintroduction following a separation for longer than a day or so). If behaviour goes back to being subdued upon reintroduction then it is likely their separation must be made permanent.

You are less likely to see a full on fight between sows but it can happen. They can be more underhand and subtle about their dislikes and spotting bullying in sow pairs can be a bit more tricky.

Bonds In Trouble

 

[Mon59]

Poop was normal again. wee in temporary box .

only happy on my lap with syringe water.

Vet said bring her back but she looks like she has given up. Also eating strangely . Feeds from my hand and then seems to drift off half way through mid nibble.

Has anybody seen this before ?
no Pain or injury . Vet was a bit mystified. Too young for most nasty causes but who knows ? Was very well until 1 week ago. Lovely sisters company from birth who is not bullying.

very distressing to watch.

 

[Mon59]

These medical considerations need to come before any bond considerations. An illness has to be completely ruled out first.
An illness in itself can sometimes be something which upsets a bond.

I think you are right …

 

[Piggies&buns]

So are you considering their bond being dysfunctional?

In one post you say you’re considering relationship issues and that she looks terrified and then in another post say it’s ‘lovely sisters company from birth that is not bullying’.

Either way, how much weight has she lost?
Are you weighing her daily?
If she is not eating when she is in the cage then she needs to be syringe fed a recovery feed.

I would see if the vet will give some pain meds (to at least rule out pain somewhere), perhaps antibiotics if there is a chance there is something going on, perhaps X-rays etc.

 

[Mon59]

many thanks. i have not really seen any aggression from the sister. She is the most agreeable of them all but the ‘patient’ appears terrified in her company again. Just some sniffing and brief chasing around. Just being reacquainted. Of course I only see the result, not any anything else, whilst I am watching, so have to guess ?

did the diarrhoea come before any relationship problem or as a result ? The cage mate not affected by exactly the same diet. Some of it shared mouthfuls.

I will weigh daily and discuss pain meds with the vet. The Vet did say no sign of needing pain meds.

Do GP’s get especially nervous when they are not well ? Even with trusted cage mates ? This is more extreme than being irritated when feeling poorly, and a Vet won’t be able to help with the long term problem.

will monitor But still not sure what to do ? Interested in similar stories.

 

[Free Ranger]

My girl Flora was likely bullied in her previous home. There was a big dominant girl who chased her away from the food and a neutered boy who was pushed around a bit too. She was 950g and nervous when she arrived but physically fine and fit. She put weight on quickly when she got here because she could eat what she wanted. But she had no other physical symptoms - no crying, no runny poops, nothing. If it was purely psychological you'd see behavioural differences but I reckon there's going to be something physical underlying it. If the sisters have always got on well she might be trying to tell her sister she's feeling poorly when she tries to interact. If it was just bullying she'd gobble food when she was on your lap and away from her cage mate.

If you had no symptoms other than runny poop we would say first keep off veggies for a day or two until things firm up. Second, you can try some probiotic mixed in with syringe food (like Fibreplex) because if the gut microbes are messed up for some reason this can help sort them out. But you say she's 'crying' and that's a worry to me. My fat girl Louise is a glutton and occasionally has gas and soft poops which might or might not be uncomfortable but she doesn't cry - she doesn't even stop eating to grunt. She actually got proper bloat in April and she didn't 'cry' with that even though she blew up like a barrel and stopped eating. Do you hear any of these interactions happening at night?

Perhaps you could get a video of this behaviour to send to the vet. Or if you can get it onto youtube or something you can link it into here?

When she does move around how is she moving? Is she wobbly at all? Did the vet get her to walk over the table? It's because you talk about her sitting still, but not facing away. When my pigs are feeling unwell they will often hunch up and turn and face a wall, or sit facing a corner, or go into a tunnel but face away from the others. Well pigs generally face outwards because they're nosy and who knows, food might be coming! If she's sitting stock still in one position but out in the open facing forwards I'm wondering if she's feeling dizzy - there are some things that can cause a sort of vertigo feeling. Did they check for potential inner ear infection? You'd usually be looking for some sort of head tilt if it's on one side, but I don't know about both sides... afraid I'm no expert here. It's worth an ask at the vet though.

Keep a close eye on her weight - and good luck little Sister x

 

[Mon59]

Many thanks for the kind responses.

I’m a new owner as only had the girls for 5 months. There was an behavoiral issue with the 4th piggie and the breeder kindly took her back for me. Stealing everyone’s food, mounting etc. perhaps a top sow on hormones but I couldn’t handle it.

The main issue I had was I couldn’t have the baby on my lap 24/7 and I put her back to socialise As she seemed better. Her sister is very active and inquisitive but the awful crying makes you want to separate again?

Some improvement this morning . Not crying and came out of her pigloo for food. No more loose Pooh.

I’ll just weigh her daily and watch for any deterioration. Can’t play God can I ?

 

[Free Ranger]

That's true. And although rare, there are some neurological issues that even if identified we can't do anything about. But if she loses weight at this young age or you spot any other symptoms a short course of antibiotics can potentially make all the difference to an infection caught early on so it's worth keeping an eye on her just as you have been doing. If it is a bond in trouble things will become clearer over time x

If your 4th piggy was more mature she might have had issues with ovarian cysts but with young ones it's not so common. I'll just stick in a quick promo for piggy rescues here as they are usually well bonded and vet-checked before they're put up for adoption. The boys are generally ready-neutered. And tbh I like the slower pace of the older pigs - I don't know if I could cope with zippy youngsters. Showing my age here!

 

[Freela]

If she's crying, has her urine been checked for infection/blood? Urinary tract infections can cause crying with urinating, anorexia, and lethargy. Just a thought if it hasn't been looked into. Blood/sludge is not always visible to the naked eye.

 

[Mon59]

Unfortunately she went downhill after a week of improvement. ! Found her yesterday morning trying to keep her head up and eyes half closed . luckily excellent 24/7 Emergency Vet saw her as soon as I could get her there…… where she left us.

very upsetting but I acted quickly. My wife in floods of tears for her baby and she didn‘t even like Piggies Six months ago !

The vet said possible liver growth affecting heart and she was crying quietly some of last week so feel awful. No other symptoms. Diarrhoea had stopped And she seemed fine.

sorry for a sad story but I think she was a bit of a runt ? Perhaps, Beware of buying frail looking babies . It will end badly.

Now I have a problem with two separated by a grill ? the baby’s sister very placid but the other one can be aggressive . Can’t face opening up and watching for trouble after all the other troubles This week.

Bit stuck to be honest…. Thanks for the very helpful posts…

 

[Mon59]

Here she was. Lovely little friend.

 

[eileen]

I'm so sorry for your devastating news.

 

[Wheekallweek]

Oh I'm so sorry you've lost your gorgeous piggy. What strange symptoms she had. You did everything you could for her and she knew she was loved. RIP little one. My thoughts and prayers are with you, your family and your remaining piggies x

 

[weepweeps]

I’m so sorry you’ve lost your beautiful girl. Take care.

 

[Free Ranger]

Oh she was a lovely girl. I'm so sorry for your loss and for your remaining piggies. Her sister must have known she was unwell and been trying to encourage her. When you've all had time to adjust you can think more about your housing situation. There's time yet...

I lost a younger girl to cancer. She been hiding away a bit more - but then she was very shy and we hadn't had her long. She'd stopped eating so much but it was hard to tell for certain. Then one night I heard very quiet crying when she had retired - I took her into the vet the next day and that was the result. They actually put her under to operate thinking it was something else so they saw for certain it was cancer and there was nothing that could be done. It does break your heart. We'll be thinking about you all. Rest in peace little sister x

 

[alpacasqueak]

I’m so sorry for your loss, she was a beautiful girl.
Sleep tight little one x