Pasteurella

[jfpj91]

I bought two new guinea pigs. After a couple days, I realized one had symptoms of a URI, so I took both back to the store. They paid for vet care, they were diagnosed with a URI, and they quarantined them at the store until they finished their antibiotic treatment.

A few days later (while the new pigs were still back at the store) I heard a couple sneezes from my current herd. Even though the new pigs were quarantined in another room during their couple days with me, I was cautious and we took a trip to my vet. He gave them a clean bill of health, but he was wary of me bringing new guineas into the herd. He said with one having a URI, it could be Pastuerella related, and even if her URI goes away, she could still be a carrier of Pastuerella, which can cause recurring, antibiotic resistant URIs down the road for her and for the entire herd. So he wants to do a PCR test on each new piggy, and a 30 day quarantine.

Today (Monday) I picked up the new girls, and wouldn't you know one is still sneezing and has a small bit of occasional clicking, along with some slight crust around her nose. So, instead of taking ghem back to the pet store, I have scheduled an appointment with my vet for Thursday. She's eating, pooping, and is as active as a piggy getting adjusted to a new setting can be.

Does anyone have any experience with Pastuerella? Or testing for Pastuerella when introducing a new pig to a herd?
Should I be concerned about the PCR tests returning false negatives and am I thus endangering my herd?
With the piggy having clear eyes, being alert, and eating just fine, will she be alright until Thursday? I do have my vet's home number should she appear worse off, like become lethargic or any extreme crustiness around her eyes or nose, but I know guinea pigs can hide their illness well and URI's can move quickly. So is waiting until Thursday alright?
Lastly, these PCR tests aren't cheap, probably about 150USD a piece, on top of care for her current URI or pneumonia, so figure the exam costs for each pig and probably an X-Ray potentially. So it's entirely possible I shell out all of this money, only to discover they are positive for Pastuerella and I have to return them to the pet store anyway to eliminate the danger to my herd. How common is Pastuerella in domestic cavvies? All I can find is that it is rare in laboratory populations. (The pet store does not sell rabbits, if that matters any.) With the upfront investment for the tests required, I'm trying to figure out if the financial cost is worth the risk that I may have flushed that money away if I have to return them.

I hope I was clear. My ADHD runs wild when I'm stressed (which I definitely am atm). Also, sorry for any typos, I writing this from my phone.

Thanks to anyone in advance for any insight they may be able to provide.

 

[Princess Dustmop]

I don't know much about this, but I'm going to tag @Piggies&buns since she's got bunnies and might be more familiar with it.

From what I understand, it's a bacteria that is normal for some species (such as dogs and cats) but dangerous to others (such as bunnies and piggies).

After doing a little bit of research, there is apparently some sort of culture that can be done (samples taken and then treated with clindamycin, to remove other bacteria, and monitored for growth), though it can take a few sequential cultures to be deemed reliable, due to small quantities of bacteria or infection hiding somewhere other than where swabbed.
PCR (polymerase chain reaction) testing detects the genetic material of the organism in question (in this case, that would be the Pasteurella bacterium). It works by adding a polymerase that causes replication of the organism in question, which allows for detection even with small quantities of infectious material. PCR testing generally accepted to be highly sensitive, accurate, and much faster.

 

[jfpj91]

I don't know much about this, but I'm going to tag @Piggies&buns since she's got bunnies and might be more familiar with it.

From what I understand, it's a bacteria that is normal for some species (such as dogs and cats) but dangerous to others (such as bunnies and piggies).

After doing a little bit of research, there is apparently some sort of culture that can be done (samples taken and then treated with clindamycin, to remove other bacteria, and monitored for growth), though it can take a few sequential cultures to be deemed reliable, due to small quantities of bacteria or infection hiding somewhere other than where swabbed.
PCR (polymerase chain reaction) testing detects the genetic material of the organism in question (in this case, that would be the Pasteurella bacterium). It works by adding a polymerase that causes replication of the organism in question, which allows for detection even with small quantities of infectious material. PCR testing generally accepted to be highly sensitive, accurate, and much faster.

My vet had said there's always a margin of error and that's why he recommends a 30 quarantine regardless of results. Reading that last line you wrote does help make me feel like that margin of error may not be as large as I was worried it may be. I do feel a little better now, especially when testing two piggies that have lived together for the past 5 or 6 weeks. If it's as contagious as it seems, I figure at least one of them would pop positive even if the other gave a false negative.

 

[Princess Dustmop]

No test is perfect ... I think we're all a lot more familiar with PCR testing than we used to be with COVID and all. COVID is a virus, so slightly different but the same concept in terms of the PCR testing. PCR testing is certainly the gold standard, but there's always that chance. I agree ... if one is positive, you can assume they both are, so you're certainly improving on the confidence of the testing by testing both. Is the pet shop willing to cover the cost of the testing? I would think they would want to know, as well.

 

[Siikibam]

Please can you let us know what antibiotic your new girls were prescribed and how long they were on it for.

I have no experience with pastuerella so will tag @PigglePuggle

 

[PigglePuggle]

Pasteurella infection is fairly common in guinea pigs, though it does sound like your vet is maybe basing their experience of rabbits. Pasteurella infection is extremely common in rabbits, on possibly once it gets into a group of rabbits (or guinea pigs) living in a confined space it will be endemic.
However, most rabbits and probably many guinea pigs already have Pasteurella- to create a Pasteurella free lab colony must be done under aseptic laboratory conditions with continuous antibiotic treatment.
Pasteurella is to be honest nothing more than a snuffly nose or mild flare-up in most animals- yes it can cause fatal pneumonia, but so can many things, in stressed overcrowded animals with weakened immune systems.
I've never heard of presumptive PCR testing for pets, or rejecting an animal as a pet because it has a snuffly nose- please bear in mind that such animals, if returned to a pet shop, would either be resold to an unsuspecting public, or would be euthanised.
Enrofloxacin/baytril is extremely effective at keeping Pasteurella under control- if an animal is stressed and sick they get symptoms that flare up, they get antibiotics, the underlying stress goes away in well cared for animals and the antibiotics kick in and the infection returns to being asymptomatic.

Unless you are trying to create a disease free laboratory colony, piggies do come with a natural set of bacteria, some of which are pathogenic if the immune system gets depressed, which mostly cause no problems at all most of the time. One of mine has latent Chlamydia, which means they all have now- probably all yours do too, prevalence is pretty complete worldwide- but we've only had one pneumonia, which got better.

I would beware over-testing, and over-thinking, also beware the fear of "bacteria" and "disease"- vets as you say get paid hundreds of dollars to offer such tests, which have little clinical relevance besides saying which antibiotic is best for a particular bacteria which is causing respiratory symptoms at a particular time. Neither humans or animals naturally come in "disease free" condition- we all have something up our nose or on our skin which could make us sick, and occasionally does, but mostly it doesn't and is just part of our natural microbial passengers. It is good to query the potential of new pigs to infect your own, but if this is just minor respiratory issues then a quarantine while they have a course of enrofloxacin and some good care and nice food might fix it right up, whereas otherwise they may get euthanised at the pet shop... usually Pasteurella is just like a cold if treated promptly.

Up to you, but I know what I'd do

 

[jfpj91]

No test is perfect ... I think we're all a lot more familiar with PCR testing than we used to be with COVID and all. COVID is a virus, so slightly different but the same concept in terms of the PCR testing. PCR testing is certainly the gold standard, but there's always that chance. I agree ... if one is positive, you can assume they both are, so you're certainly improving on the confidence of the testing by testing both. Is the pet shop willing to cover the cost of the testing? I would think they would want to know, as well.It's petco (we have no local rescues in my area, so they're pretty much one of two corporate options in town), so they could really care less.

It's a corporate chain, so, sadly, they could care less. We don't have any local rescues or anything like that in my area, so they're one of two large corporate options.

 

[jfpj91]

Please can you let us know what antibiotic your new girls were prescribed and how long they were on it for.

I have no experience with pastuerella so will tag @PigglePuggle

It was a ten day course, but I'm not sure what they were on since they weren't in my care during their treatment.

 

[jfpj91]

Pasteurella infection is fairly common in guinea pigs, though it does sound like your vet is maybe basing their experience of rabbits. Pasteurella infection is extremely common in rabbits, on possibly once it gets into a group of rabbits (or guinea pigs) living in a confined space it will be endemic.
However, most rabbits and probably many guinea pigs already have Pasteurella- to create a Pasteurella free lab colony must be done under aseptic laboratory conditions with continuous antibiotic treatment.
Pasteurella is to be honest nothing more than a snuffly nose or mild flare-up in most animals- yes it can cause fatal pneumonia, but so can many things, in stressed overcrowded animals with weakened immune systems.
I've never heard of presumptive PCR testing for pets, or rejecting an animal as a pet because it has a snuffly nose- please bear in mind that such animals, if returned to a pet shop, would either be resold to an unsuspecting public, or would be euthanised.
Enrofloxacin/baytril is extremely effective at keeping Pasteurella under control- if an animal is stressed and sick they get symptoms that flare up, they get antibiotics, the underlying stress goes away in well cared for animals and the antibiotics kick in and the infection returns to being asymptomatic.

Unless you are trying to create a disease free laboratory colony, piggies do come with a natural set of bacteria, some of which are pathogenic if the immune system gets depressed, which mostly cause no problems at all most of the time. One of mine has latent Chlamydia, which means they all have now- probably all yours do too, prevalence is pretty complete worldwide- but we've only had one pneumonia, which got better.

I would beware over-testing, and over-thinking, also beware the fear of "bacteria" and "disease"- vets as you say get paid hundreds of dollars to offer such tests, which have little clinical relevance besides saying which antibiotic is best for a particular bacteria which is causing respiratory symptoms at a particular time. Neither humans or animals naturally come in "disease free" condition- we all have something up our nose or on our skin which could make us sick, and occasionally does, but mostly it doesn't and is just part of our natural microbial passengers. It is good to query the potential of new pigs to infect your own, but if this is just minor respiratory issues then a quarantine while they have a course of enrofloxacin and some good care and nice food might fix it right up, whereas otherwise they may get euthanised at the pet shop... usually Pasteurella is just like a cold if treated promptly.

Up to you, but I know what I'd do

Yeah, the whole likely to end up sick with an unsuspecting owner, or even if nursed back to health and likely bought for a kid so the pig can live in 2 sq ft along until it dies would really break my heart. It always does when I think about it, but especially since I've become attached to these piggies. There's just a lot of outside factors I had to consider, but at this point we're moving forward with keeping them.

I know my vet isn't peddling anything he feels isn't necessary. For the sake of brevity, I wont go into too many details, but he could have gouged me last year for several grand if he wanted to do so (I would have paid dadgum near any cost if it meant Gaia would have lived). Instead, he did whatever he could to keep my cost of care low. He's also the vet at a nearby aquarium, and he cares so much about the animals AND their owners. Between being knowledgeable and caring, I am very lucky to have found him.

That being said, since it's possible my herd already has it. If the PCR tests come back positive on these two new girls, then getting some or all of the current herd tested to see if they already have it sounds like the next logical step, as opposed to writing these girls off. Is that a correct assumption?

 

[PigglePuggle]

I personally wouldn't test further than is needed for clinical symptoms and treatment. If the new girls do have Pasteurella making them sick, then you will know what to treat to make them better. But they may have Pasteurella just because most guinea pigs carry Pasteurella and it isnt what is making them sick... in which case it doesnt really matter. Same with Chlamydia- most pigs have it, mostly asymptomatic. Bordatella you do need to worry about- that's nearly always lethal in piggies.
We had someone on here a few weeks ago fussing because their piggy tested positive for Staph aureus... which all mammals including us naturally have on our skin. Staph aureus may be MRSA... but it usually isnt, its just our normal skin bacteria- same with E. Coli, 1 pathogenic strain you hear scare stories about but most strains are our normal gut bacteria and completely harmless.
USA vets and medical doctors tend to over-test and over-treat, in perfectly good faith- I have worked in a veterinary college over in Georgia myself and lived there for 2 years, when you do get veterinary or medical care it may be over-diligent for the purpose of simply preventing or treating clinical disease.
But that's just my perspective of course, and the UK perspective is often a bit different- there are no right or wrong answers here, you are clearly a well informed intelligent caring piggy owner with a very diligent vet, so any decision you make is bound to be well reasoned and made with your piggies interests at heart.
I would just be wary of writing off new animals completely because of a test result for a treatable/manageable/very common bacteria, if their prospects of finding a future elsewhere are very limited, though of course you should prioritise your own existing piggies health x

 

[PigglePuggle]

I should also say, PCR tests are in many cases a bit too accurate- they are inly testing for bacterial DNA, not actively growing bacteria. A good old bacterial culture test is a better measure of how heavy or active an infection is- you can actually measure how many CFUs- colony forming units, so individual active replicating bacteria- are in a swab rather than just dormant or dead bacteria or bacteria hanging around from the pet store emvironment, are present- and also how the bacteria respond to adding various antibiotics- and you can repeat that after giving the animal a course of antibiotics to see how well the treatment has worked.
I'm writing a new lecture course on all this stuff and actually reading veterinary journals it has surprised me how much inert, inactive and clinically itrelevant bacteria PCR tests puck up- you might get 70% of animals positive with a PCR test but only 15% have actively growing bacteria in culture and only 5% have clinical symptoms.
Some diseases it pays to be uktra-vigilant but for many, the PCR test positivity doesnt reflect active infection rates at all...
Sorry if that's a bit information overload but all those journal articles I've read mught be good for something, I doubt my students will listen lol

 

[jfpj91]

All of this has me feeling a bit better since it doesn't seem like a life sentence. My vet mentioned Pastuerella causing recurring URI's until the become antibiotic resistant and then obviously death from the URI. Maybe he meant Bordatella, or maybe he was only was only talking about worst case scenario, or it's possible I misunderstood.

Right now, the appointment is for an exam for the URI and for the PCR tests (only 85USD per pig). At this point, with the information provided I wouldn't mind saving the money and treating symptoms if it doesn't jeopardize any of my girls, but I'm not sure how to decline the PCR without appearing negligent to him.

 

[PigglePuggle]

Maybe you could ask for a bacterial culture test instead, and keep the new pigs quarantined until you see how they respond to antibiotics?
Some guinea pigs and rabbits do indeed die from Pasteurella pneumonia, just like some humans die from flu or covid- but it can't really be predicted.
If you can clear the URI symptoms without too much difficulty, the prognosis may be quite good.
Also be aware that piggies who survive serious or long term URIs sometimes have some lung scarring that means they will always be a bit prone to wheezing even after any infection clears- piggies have very narrow airways anyway- and many vets rush in then with more and more antibiotics when that may not be needed at all, and managing symptoms with decongestant and anti-inflammatory medication may work. That is why the bacterial culture test is quite important, to check any wheezy piggy really has an active infection.

 

[jfpj91]

Update: They went to the vet today. We went ahead and did the PCR tests. I did misunderstand and it's not that there will be constant URI's for the girl if she does have it. It'll only be when stressed (such as when moving to a new home) or as her immune system weakens when she is older. So I'm inferring the test is because my current herd being 4-4.5 years old and they are getting up there in age (hopefully they have many many years left), so this precautionary to protect the herd in case they don't have it.

He wasn't sure how long it would be before the results were in. From there, if positive I'll pay to test a couple of my herd members, and if they are negative, I'll just build the new girls a separate large enclosure and keep them permanently quarantined in another room.

 

[Princess Dustmop]

Sounds like you have a good plan, and I'm sure you'll be a great piggy parent to these new little girls.
I totally understand getting attached so quickly ... it's part of why I couldn't foster animals (I'd want to keep them!).

 

[jfpj91]

Any idea how long it should take her to clear these URI symptoms (little bit of a runny nose, not too crusty, sneezing, clicking) without any additional antibiotics (last dose was last Saturday, I believe)?

 

[Swissgreys]

Any idea how long it should take her to clear these URI symptoms (little bit of a runny nose, not too crusty, sneezing, clicking) without any additional antibiotics (last dose was last Saturday, I believe)?

I am far from an expert, but if your piggy still has clear symptoms as you describe, and has done for almost a week, then they may still need antibiotics.
Either a longer course or a different medication.
When Lucy was on AB's for a URI she was initially given a 7 day course which was extended for another 5 days as she still had some minor symptoms.
The same things happened with Ruby, but after 5 days we switched antibiotics all together.
I would ask your vet about it.

 

[PigglePuggle]

I agree with @Swissgreys , the antibiotics usually continue until the symptoms clear- a longer or stronger course of what is already being given, or a different antibiotic. Clearing any infection as much as possible now, will reduce the risk of it recurring for a while.