Persistent Uri - Thoughts And Healing Vibes Please

[Qualcast&Flymo]

Hi all, my Zebedee has had another URI since the beginning of December which we haven't been able to clear up yet. I'd be grateful if any folks with more experience than me can say if we are doing the right things and if not, suggest what I could do.

We tried him first with Zithromax as that usually clears up his URI's, but after 15 days there was no real change. He had also continued to lose weight, going from <1200g to 900g. So we went back to the vet, requesting this time to see the one who suggested using a nebuliser as she has rabbits and is interested in rabbit medicine, so I thought she might have more knowledge of piggies too. She as it happens had just been on a (CPD) course on guinea pigs, and suggested that maybe this time he had got a different, bordatella type, bug which would respond better to another medicine, so we have just completed 2 10-days lots of Marbocyl. 10 days ago I thought we had turned a corner as he put on 100g, but then he lost it all again.
He has also been using the nebuliser with F10 for 15mins twice daily, had Metacam once a day, and Critical care initially twice, then3 times, now 4 times daily to try to get some weight back on him (he feels like a bag of bones at present). I found he really loves the Supreme Science Recovery Food, so I've just got more of that, so I can get more into him.
Today i had a talk on the phone with the vet. As he is not better, we have decided to try instead Baytril via the nebuliser, along with Bisolvon powder which i can put in the Recovery Food. I obviously hope these will do the trick, but if they don't she said it could be something untreatable like a tumour, we would need an X-ray (conscious) to see that. He had an ultrasound last week to check for fluid in his chest, but nothing showed up on that.
Just to make things worse for the poor lad, last week I had noticed a swelling on his tummy and thinning fur and white things in the fur at the top of his legs - the vet took samples and told me today the swelling is just a sebaceous cyst (no problem) but the white things are fur mites, so he will also have to have a course of drops to get rid of them!

Does it sound like we are doing the right things? Is there anything else I can do/give him to make him better? I feel so sorry for the poor boy, grunting away in the cage. When he is on my lap for medicines or recovery food, he eats perfectly well, including Readigrass which I added last week to encourage him to eat more hay-type food, but I think he just doesn't move around much to eat the orchard hay from the hayrack or the nuggets.

Sorry for the massive essay - thought it best to include all the relevant info!

 

[Poppy'sMum]

I'm assuming they've ruled out heart problems? Respiratory problems can also be a symptom of heart failure if antibiotics don't clear them up A conscious x ray would determine heart problems &/or a tumour.

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

I'm assuming they've ruled out heart problems? Respiratory problems can also be a symptom of heart failure if antibiotics don't clear them up A conscious x ray would determine heart problems &/or a tumour.

As I understand it, the purpose of the ultrasound last week was to look for heart problems causing fluid build-up in the chest cavity. She had thought he might have such a problem, because he has a big abdomen considering his recent weight loss, but she couldn't see anything that looked like fluid there.

If the Baytril via nebuliser doesn't work, then perhaps the chubby tum is partly due to a tumour, we would need to have the x-ray to check that. Obviously I'm just hoping the Baytril does the job, as if it were a tumour we couldn't do anything about it except to keep him as comfortable as possible for as long as we can ...

 

[Wiebke]

Apart from seeing whether there is an underlying problem, it may also be worth to lab test the bacteria to see which antibiotic may be the most effectiv, especially when you are dealing with potential resistance issues.

I am very sorry; it is a worrying time!

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

Thanks @Wiebke ; the vet yesterday asked what Zeb's breathing sounded like, and whether he produces any mucus when he sneezes etc, so I think she is considering trying to test for which bacteria he has, if he is not better after the course of Baytril we are starting today.
I have just collected his latest lot of medicines, I need to start the course of Ivermectin today. He currently weighs nearly 900g, but is usually over 1100g, do I use 1 drop or 2 as it is 1 drop per 500g of pig? Thanks!

 

[Katiedid]

you can nebulise with gentamycin. I know some people have been successful with that when there has been no response to anything else. Also what are you holding him when you nebulise him? I bought a box from B&Q and put holes in. It should get misty in there. With Zigg to be honest we were nebulising 4- 5 times a day (with F10 - clearly that would mess up the baytril dosage if you did that with Baytril) at peek in order to get it cleared slowly reducing by dropping one every few days.

I hope he gets better soon xx

 

[Wiebke]

Thanks @Wiebke ; the vet yesterday asked what Zeb's breathing sounded like, and whether he produces any mucus when he sneezes etc, so I think she is considering trying to test for which bacteria he has, if he is not better after the course of Baytril we are starting today.
I have just collected his latest lot of medicines, I need to start the course of Ivermectin today. He currently weighs nearly 900g, but is usually over 1100g, do I use 1 drop or 2 as it is 1 drop per 500g of pig? Thanks!

Use 2 drops. You go for the weight you are noticeably closer to.

 

[sport_billy]

sending lots of vibes

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

you can nebulise with gentamycin. I know some people have been successful with that when there has been no response to anything else. Also what are you holding him when you nebulise him? I bought a box from B&Q and put holes in. It should get misty in there. With Zigg to be honest we were nebulising 4- 5 times a day (with F10 - clearly that would mess up the baytril dosage if you did that with Baytril) at peek in order to get it cleared slowly reducing by dropping one every few days.

I hope he gets better soon xx

Thank you @Katiedid . If the Baytril in the nebuliser doesn't work, I'll mention Gentamycin to the vet. Re the nebuliser, I also bought a plastic box, from Hobbycraft, and made some holes in it. It's just big enough for him to turn around in, and I can see the cloud of mist around him and seeping out the holes, so I think it's working as it should (except perhaps when he turns his back on the spout and his ample behind blocks the spray from getting to his nose!). I think I need to check with the vet how many times to a day to use the Baytril; I think she knows I've been using the nebuliser twice a day, but best to be sure, I don't want to overdose the baytril.

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

Use 2 drops. You go for the weight you are noticeably closer to.

Thanks for that
and thankyou @sport_billy .

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

Well, Zebedee finished the course of Baytril via the nebuliser last night, but unfortunately he doesn't seem any better. He has also continued to lose weight slowly, despite me trying to get as much Recovery Food into him as possible. ( A couple of days, he would take up to 2 tsp mixed with 4tsp of water, but now he will only take 1tsp, so I am now trying to give it to him 5 times a day.)

I'm not sure what the best way forward now is, to make him better. @Katiedid mentioned Gentamycin - can this work where other medicines for URI have failed? Are there any others worth trying?
The vet mentioned the possibility that he might have tumour or similar - would that cause URI-like symptoms? @Poppy'sMum mentioned the possibility of heart problems - 2 weeks ago he had an ultrasound that showed no fluid present, could an enlarged heart (or fluid) show up on an X-ray where it didn't on ultrasound? We are seeing the vet tonight, an x-ray may well be the next port of call, unless anyone can advise me of a better route; I'm also hoping he sneezes while there so she can take a sample for testing .

 

[Wiebke]

Well, Zebedee finished the course of Baytril via the nebuliser last night, but unfortunately he doesn't seem any better. He has also continued to lose weight slowly, despite me trying to get as much Recovery Food into him as possible. ( A couple of days, he would take up to 2 tsp mixed with 4tsp of water, but now he will only take 1tsp, so I am now trying to give it to him 5 times a day.)

I'm not sure what the best way forward now is, to make him better. @Katiedid mentioned Gentamycin - can this work where other medicines for URI have failed? Are there any others worth trying?
The vet mentioned the possibility that he might have tumour or similar - would that cause URI-like symptoms? @Poppy'sMum mentioned the possibility of heart problems - 2 weeks ago he had an ultrasound that showed no fluid present, could an enlarged heart (or fluid) show up on an X-ray where it didn't on ultrasound? We are seeing the vet tonight, an x-ray may well be the next port of call, unless anyone can advise me of a better route; I'm also hoping he sneezes while there so she can take a sample for testing .

I would strongly recommend a lab test for the bacteria to see which antibiotic is most effective at this stage instead of trying to find it by trial and error.

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

OK, I'll see if we can get one done tonight. If he doesn't help by sneezing, how else can one get a suitable sample?

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

We are just back from having an x-ray at the vets'. Zebedee has hardly sneezed since Wednesday, so I couldn't take a sample for culturing, but the x-ray results were interesting, to say the least ...

The vet said she couldn't see any heart enlargement or fluid, instead what she showed me on the picture was that his tummy is absolutely massive and full of gas - bloat I guess? He looks like a little balloon on the x-ray. She said if she had seen a bunny like that she wouldn't have expected it to survive, but Zeb is still alive and eating happily, just not enough.

She has given me: 1) Cisapride 0.15ml every 8-12 hours
2) Zantac 0.25ml twice daily
3) Emeprid 0.5ml every 8-12 hours (is that the same as Metaclopramide?)

Does that sound right?

Would every 12 hours be ok for the Emeprid and Cisapride? I would find it difficult to fit it in every 8 hours,due to my family schedule, though if it will make a big difference then I can try to make the effort.

I'm to go back in 2 weeks to see how he looks inside, or sooner if his condition worsens.
Is there any thing else I can do to help get rid of all the gas quicker? She didn't want to try using a needle, I can't remember why, though I guess if it became life threatening, she would give it a go.
Any thoughts would be appreciated - I've not had to deal with bloat before (assuming that is what it is), so don't know what to expect etc.

Thanks!

 

[DM030819]

@Qualcast&Flymo Every 12 hours is fine for a milder case of bloat. It's usually 8 hours for a more serious case where you need to give it 3 times a day.

I add in gripe water too, but I'd probably not try that just yet. Give the medicine time to work first.

Lots of floor time can help. Running around can dislodge some gas. If I've had a pig with bloat who doesn't want to run around I've taken them out in the car. The jiggling around can help.

You can also try to rub his stomach, but sometimes they really don't like it, especially if they're feeling sore. You can use an electric toothbrush on them to try to help the gas move.

In my cases of bloat it's usually food related so I've also had to stop the veg until they're better.

Fibreplex can help balance their digestive system too.

 

[Wiebke]

We are just back from having an x-ray at the vets'. Zebedee has hardly sneezed since Wednesday, so I couldn't take a sample for culturing, but the x-ray results were interesting, to say the least ...

The vet said she couldn't see any heart enlargement or fluid, instead what she showed me on the picture was that his tummy is absolutely massive and full of gas - bloat I guess? He looks like a little balloon on the x-ray. She said if she had seen a bunny like that she wouldn't have expected it to survive, but Zeb is still alive and eating happily, just not enough.

She has given me: 1) Cisapride 0.15ml every 8-12 hours
2) Zantac 0.25ml twice daily
3) Emeprid 0.5ml every 8-12 hours (is that the same as Metaclopramide?)

Does that sound right?

Would every 12 hours be ok for the Emeprid and Cisapride? I would find it difficult to fit it in every 8 hours,due to my family schedule, though if it will make a big difference then I can try to make the effort.

I'm to go back in 2 weeks to see how he looks inside, or sooner if his condition worsens.
Is there any thing else I can do to help get rid of all the gas quicker? She didn't want to try using a needle, I can't remember why, though I guess if it became life threatening, she would give it a go.
Any thoughts would be appreciated - I've not had to deal with bloat before (assuming that is what it is), so don't know what to expect etc.

Thanks!

Hi! My Ffowlyn had this several years ago where the bloat keeps strictly to the stomach but does not affect the gut. It took two vet trips and an x-ray to diagnose her mysery weight loss. it is pretty rare and not easy to diagnose as the symptoms can be very diffuse and vague without any signs of bloat directly visible. Bloat in the gut is much more common. The medication for either is the same.

Your vet has given you the best medication. Emeprid and cisapride are both gut stimulants; emeprid is preferable to metoclopramide (which is ideal when you need to empty the guts but not so effective with gas). Cisapride is the much stronger one. They work on different parts of the digestive tract.
Zantac is the vet brand for ranitidine to help de-gas the stomach.

If you are unable to keep to the 8 hour rhythm, give 0.2 ml of cisapride and 0.5 ml of emeprid every 12 hours. You can also give 0.3 ml of gripe water to help disperse the gas; it doesn't affect the other drugs. Ideally I would recommend to please try the 8 hour rhythm at least for the weekend.

Keep him active; so his body movement can help to disperse the gas and work it out of the body.

Here is more information on bloat or its opposite, GI stasis. You may have to brace that the digestive tract can stay tender and prone to bloating in the wake of this for quite some time or permanently.
Bloat, Gi Stasis ( No Gut Movement) And Not Eating

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

We are just back from having an x-ray at the vets'. Zebedee has hardly sneezed since Wednesday, so I couldn't take a sample for culturing, but the x-ray results were interesting, to say the least ...

The vet said she couldn't see any heart enlargement or fluid, instead what she showed me on the picture was that his tummy is absolutely massive and full of gas - bloat I guess? He looks like a little balloon on the x-ray. She said if she had seen a bunny like that she wouldn't have expected it to survive, but Zeb is still alive and eating happily, just not enough.

She has given me: 1) Cisapride 0.15ml every 8-12 hours
2) Zantac 0.25ml twice daily
3) Emeprid 0.5ml every 8-12 hours (is that the same as Metaclopramide?)

Does that sound right?

Would every 12 hours be ok for the Emeprid and Cisapride? I would find it difficult to fit it in every 8 hours,due to my family schedule, though if it will make a big difference then I can try to make the effort.

I'm to go back in 2 weeks to see how he looks inside, or sooner if his condition worsens.
Is there any thing else I can do to help get rid of all the gas quicker? She didn't want to try using a needle, I can't remember why, though I guess if it became life threatening, she would give it a go.
Any thoughts would be appreciated - I've not had to deal with bloat before (assuming that is what it is), so don't know what to expect etc.

Thanks!

This sounds very like what happens to my bunny. His breathing isn't great and we have come to the conclusion that he swallows a lot of air because of the way he breathes. He tended to get bloat a lot, as well as his breathing looking rather pronounced. He had an xray and scan of his heart and all looked okay. However, he continued to get respiratory issues, despite having courses of antibiotic, so we started him on a diuretic. Well what a difference it's made. His breathing is so much better, he no longer swallows all the air that made him gassy and he has lots more energy. His heart has always sounded okay and it looked fine on the images, but he does seem to have an issue with fluid retention that is controlled with the frusol.

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

Thank you all for your replies, I am very grateful for the advice & reassurance.

@Jaycey , Zeb is a pretty lazy piggie at the best of times (well I guess at 6 he is getting elderly and entitled to lots of rest!) but I am trying to get him to move a bit more by making a bigger temporary daytime 'run' in our corridor and getting him to come to me for his veg etc. hoping it helps a bit. I've got an electric toothbrush, what is the best way to use it? He doesn't seem to mind me rubbing his tummy (sides) or holding the vibrating toothbrush against it, which is good I guess.

@Wiebke , @furryfriends (TEAS) , thanks for your thoughts. Interesting to hear that this is different from the usual bloat. Would I be right in understanding then that this kind wouldn't cause death rapidly like the more normal bloat, if he were to die it would be due to not eating enough and resulting excessive loss of weight? And, it is probably not caused by the veg he has been eating, so it is ok to keep giving him veg and fruit? Do you think it would be a good idea to get him taking a diuretic too once the gas is gone from his tummy? His heart didn't look enlarged or fluidy on the scans or x-ray, but I suppose that sort of thing could be being masked by this distended stomach pushing on all the other organs.

I have made an effort to give him the Cisapride and Emeprid 8 hourly so far and will try to keep it up during the week.
The vet said to stop the Baytril , I forgot to ask but have stopped giving him the Bisolvon too. He is still having recovery food and a bit of Pro-C. Not sure if he needs Fibreplex as he is eating all food types, just not enough, and pooping in proportion. I hope we see results soon - and hear them maybe! (never been so interested in whether guinea pigs fart or not!)

 

[DM030819]

@Qualcast&Flymo Usually when I'm massaging them with a toothbrush I try to hold it against them and slowly move it further down their body so it's pushing towards their bottoms. It's good that he's okay with it so it should hopefully work.

It sounds like he's doing really well.

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

Thank you all for your replies, I am very grateful for the advice & reassurance.

@Jaycey , Zeb is a pretty lazy piggie at the best of times (well I guess at 6 he is getting elderly and entitled to lots of rest!) but I am trying to get him to move a bit more by making a bigger temporary daytime 'run' in our corridor and getting him to come to me for his veg etc. hoping it helps a bit. I've got an electric toothbrush, what is the best way to use it? He doesn't seem to mind me rubbing his tummy (sides) or holding the vibrating toothbrush against it, which is good I guess.

@Wiebke , @furryfriends (TEAS) , thanks for your thoughts. Interesting to hear that this is different from the usual bloat. Would I be right in understanding then that this kind wouldn't cause death rapidly like the more normal bloat, if he were to die it would be due to not eating enough and resulting excessive loss of weight? And, it is probably not caused by the veg he has been eating, so it is ok to keep giving him veg and fruit? Do you think it would be a good idea to get him taking a diuretic too once the gas is gone from his tummy? His heart didn't look enlarged or fluidy on the scans or x-ray, but I suppose that sort of thing could be being masked by this distended stomach pushing on all the other organs.

I have made an effort to give him the Cisapride and Emeprid 8 hourly so far and will try to keep it up during the week.
The vet said to stop the Baytril , I forgot to ask but have stopped giving him the Bisolvon too. He is still having recovery food and a bit of Pro-C. Not sure if he needs Fibreplex as he is eating all food types, just not enough, and pooping in proportion. I hope we see results soon - and hear them maybe! (never been so interested in whether guinea pigs fart or not!)

I have never stopped the veg for my bunny when he has got gassy due to swallowing air. If this is what is causing your guinea pigs issues, then you need to find out why he is breathing in this way. Would your vet be willing to trial him on some frusol?

 

[Wiebke]

The gas in the tummy caused total loss of appetite/GI stasis in Ffowlyn with the according weight loss, but this was because the initial diagnosis was bullying due to total lack of any symptoms in her case (as it turned out, the bullying was likely secondary to her not being well). She didn't have any breathing issues whatsoever. All she had was a mystery weight loss.

Since it is so rare, each case should be seen as a one off and you have to work it out by trial and error. You may want to see whether frusol can help alleviate any breathing issues in your case.

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

Thanks for your advice!

I've been giving Zebedee the new medicines since Saturday night (3x daily Emeprid & Cisapride, 2x Zantac and Metacam) and also giving him short sessions with the electric toothbrush. He seems to have gained a little weight today, but otherwise I've not seen any obvious change. How long does it usually take for the medicines to work, and are there any signs other than shrinkage of the size of his abdomen that would show it is working?
i tried to get him more active by giving them more space, but he just heads for the nearest cosy and parks himself there - any other ideas to get him moving?
I'm wondering if the reason for all this gas is inept syringe feeding (on my part or his). If there was air in the syringe would he swallow it with the food? Or if he keeps the syringe in his mouth while chewing each mouthful, would he breathe in air through his mouth and swallow it?
I will ask about frusol when I see the vet at the end of this course of medicines, I think my vet would be willing to consider it if there seems to be a need, even if she hasn't come across it before. I suppose another x-ray would be an idea once all the gas is gone, in case the distended tummy was masking swelling or fluid on the heart.

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

Any ideas on the above, anyone?

I'm beginning to get somewhat concerned. He's been on the new medicines for nearly a week, but there is no obvious difference in his size. Or in anything else. He is stable at around 820g, still eating veg, grass, Readigrass, hay, nuggets and water, and pooping pretty normally as far as I can see.
I don't really understand why if he can pass his droppings normally, he can't get rid of at least some of that gas as wind. How do the bloat medicines get rid of the unwanted gas usually? I really don't want to subject him to having a needle stuck in him to let the gas out - there must be possible risk or side effects associated with that kind of procedure.

 

[piggie smitten]

Hi, my boys both had this procedure done and although they seemed to be recovering well I lost them both soon after. There is a high risk of peritonitis with this procedure. Although I'll never know if that was the cause I strongly suspect it was. This was with one of the forum recommended vets. I would have gone to Simon but he was on holiday both times
They were given antibiotics but only a week long course
In hindsight I think it should have been longer.

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

Thanks for your reply, @piggie smitten . I'm sorry to hear about your 2 boys. Did they both have this unusual kind of bloat, or the normal sort? Did your vet have to give them a general anaesthetic for the procedure? I was worried that there was a risk of peritonitis or similar with using a needle to release the gas, but I am not sure what else can be done as the drugs don't seem to be working. He is still as chubby as ever and not significantly putting on weight, so I can only assume he is still full of gas.
I would be willing to travel to Northampton if there is anything Simon Maddock knows can be done that my own vet doesn't know/can't do. Does anybody know of any other ways of getting rid of the gas, please? @Wiebke , @furryfriends (TEAS) ?

I've just bought some gripe water and one of those massage mats that was mentioned on another thread, so i will try them first before I see the vet again at the end of this week. How much gripe water do i give him, and how often?

I will also ask about frusol, in case it is his breathing that has caused the gas buildup. He has always seemed quite chubby to me, but it was only after his last URI (or whatever it is) started in December that I felt he had got more chubby (and the vet commented on it just before Christmas). So perhaps he is like @furryfriends (TEAS) bunny, and fluid round the heart has affected his breathing and caused the gas that way.

Would appreciate any advice anyone can give! TIA xx

 

[helen105281]

I have also found that a pig that is struggling to breathe can suck in air, so that could be causing the gas as Debbie has said. Definitely ask your vet about diuretics. Am a bit late into this thread, has a heart issue been ruled out?

For gripe water (the Woodwards one) I dose at a minimum of 0.3ml every few hours, but have dosed higher when needed.

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

Thanks, @helen105281 . A heart issue hasn't yet been completely ruled out - a scan and x-ray didn't show any fluid or enlargement, but perhaps something is being hidden by his gas-filled tummy pushing on it. So I will ask about diuretics, assuming it is okay to use them alongside the gut drugs.
I hope the gripe water helps a little in the meantime!

 

[Betsy]

Have only just caught up with this thread. What a nightmare you are having with Zeb! Hope it gets sorted soon. Healing vibes being sent xx

 

[Wiebke]

Thanks for your reply, @piggie smitten . I'm sorry to hear about your 2 boys. Did they both have this unusual kind of bloat, or the normal sort? Did your vet have to give them a general anaesthetic for the procedure? I was worried that there was a risk of peritonitis or similar with using a needle to release the gas, but I am not sure what else can be done as the drugs don't seem to be working. He is still as chubby as ever and not significantly putting on weight, so I can only assume he is still full of gas.
I would be willing to travel to Northampton if there is anything Simon Maddock knows can be done that my own vet doesn't know/can't do. Does anybody know of any other ways of getting rid of the gas, please? @Wiebke , @furryfriends (TEAS) ?

I've just bought some gripe water and one of those massage mats that was mentioned on another thread, so i will try them first before I see the vet again at the end of this week. How much gripe water do i give him, and how often?

I will also ask about frusol, in case it is his breathing that has caused the gas buildup. He has always seemed quite chubby to me, but it was only after his last URI (or whatever it is) started in December that I felt he had got more chubby (and the vet commented on it just before Christmas). So perhaps he is like @furryfriends (TEAS) bunny, and fluid round the heart has affected his breathing and caused the gas that way.

Would appreciate any advice anyone can give! TIA xx

You can give up to 0.3 ml up to every 3 hours in case of severe bloating. I would recommend to only go up to the max in a severe situation. It is not a cure, but it can help to disperse gas bubbles.

Sadly bloat is very difficult to control and there is only a limited range of meds, which you ar already using.

 

[piggie smitten]

Thanks for your reply, @piggie smitten . I'm sorry to hear about your 2 boys. Did they both have this unusual kind of bloat, or the normal sort? Did your vet have to give them a general anaesthetic for the procedure? I was worried that there was a risk of peritonitis or similar with using a needle to release the gas, but I am not sure what else can be done as the drugs don't seem to be working. He is still as chubby as ever and not significantly putting on weight, so I can only assume he is still full of gas.
I would be willing to travel to Northampton if there is anything Simon Maddock knows can be done that my own vet doesn't know/can't do. Does anybody know of any other ways of getting rid of the gas, please? @Wiebke , @furryfriends (TEAS) ?

I've just bought some gripe water and one of those massage mats that was mentioned on another thread, so i will try them first before I see the vet again at the end of this week. How much gripe water do i give him, and how often?

I will also ask about frusol, in case it is his breathing that has caused the gas buildup. He has always seemed quite chubby to me, but it was only after his last URI (or whatever it is) started in December that I felt he had got more chubby (and the vet commented on it just before Christmas). So perhaps he is like @furryfriends (TEAS) bunny, and fluid round the heart has affected his breathing and caused the gas that way.

Would appreciate any advice anyone can give! TIA xx

Hi, it was the normal sort of gas bloat they had. Meds were tried with Bubs but didn't work so the needle method was used under GA. When Squeak got bloat after we'd lost Bubs she didn't try meds first, just went straight for the needle. He then went on to have it done twice more as he was still getting bloated. So that was three GA's in the space of a few days. Both of them came home and seemed to be doing well. Bubs was eating but being supplemented with syringe feeding but Squeak wasn't eating for himself at all. On the morning we lost Squeak I was going to take him to Simon but unfortunately between his 4am feed and his 6am feed he got terrible watery diarrhoea and we rushed him to the vet but he didn't recover and we had to help him over the bridge that afternoon. I still feel terrible about it nearly a year on wondering if I could have done something differently.