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Phoebe not picking up yet ... advice needed please

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Janey

Janey

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She's been on antibiotics for a few days (suspected URI) and is a little brighter than she was a couple of days ago, but we're still having to syringe feed her regularly as she has no interest in her Excel nuggets. Happy to nibble hay/veggies and looks better/more herself immediately after food. Poos are a lot smaller than usual and have been like that since she was admitted to hospital last Thursday with gut stasis. How long should it normally take for piggies to recover and start eating voluntarily again after something like this? Vets seem to think she's doing ok, I'm just not happy she's doing as well as I think she should be. Am I being impatient or does it take a while?

Would be really grateful for any advice offered. Just don't know what to do - as I obviously don't want her to suffer, but she's such a superstar and so precious to me ...
 
You are a bit impatient... Just continue with syringe feeding. Your care can make all the difference in pulling her through this one - if you need some encouragement; a piggy savvy vet once told me that it was as important as the medication.

Please continue to weigh her daily and top her up as much as she needs to reach her daily 120ml food intake; she is getting her fibre in that. Small poos are normal for this situation. You will also have to brace yourself that the guts can stay on the dodgy side for several weeks and may have a tendency to bloat for the rest of the life. Make sure that she also drinks. Give veg only in small quantities and stay off any rich veg like peppers, broccoli, cauli leaves, kale and other cabbages. Just persist! It is a tough time, but I can reassure you that it is worth it.

I have been through it with my Ffraid in May as she lost movement in her back legs, while the accompanying pain caused partial gut stasis. It took a few weeks to stabilise her and she has since had a tendency to bloat occasionally, but her legs are fully back and she is still there begging for a special treat, looking forward to her 6th birthday!
 
Thank you so much for the reply and encouragement. Have been sitting here crying this morning about it - just so worrying and tiring.

The vets are looking after her and her sister daily for the feeding as I work, but not sure if she is getting 120 ml per day, I will find out this morning. They said yesterday they are trying to feed her every hour if they can (bit short staffed). She had lost a little weight last night, so I'll mention that too and see if they can possibly increase the feeds or amount. Is 10ml per feed about the right amount, or can we give more? She's having celery, cucumber, a bit of parsley, watercress and salad leaves (no iceberg) as veg - gone off peppers/carrot and don't feed the other veg you mentioned as my other piggy had problems with her bladder from too much of those type of veg. We're also topping up her Vit C with a tablet ground down into food as well, but haven't seen her drink hardly at all - I was thinking she was probably getting enough water from the veg. Should I syringe a small amount of water too? Do you think she should be eating the nuggets herself from the bowl before she stays home during the day? I don't want her to go all day and not be eating properly while I'm at work. Sorry for all the questions, just want to do the best I can for her.

It's good to know that it can take some weeks for them to recover.
 
I would offer to syringe her some water every time you had a feeding session - you will see whether she takes it or not and know whether she is thirsty. I have been offering as much recovery food as Ffraid would take in one go, after I offered her some fresh veg. 10-15 ml in one go is about normal for a piggy still off its food. As she is not losing a lot of weight, it is actually encouraging!

You can offer her pellets and take them with her to the vets, just in case. Good that you have day care! Between 5 year old/700g Cariad having had an emergency spay and needing a helping hand during her first post op night just two days before Ffraid had her episode and then having to feed Ffraid around the clock (although I did so every 2-3 hours during the day and 3-4 hours in the night after the first one when I stayed up with her all night, especially once Ffraid was starting to eat that bit more in one go), I was totally shattered, too. The crying is mainly just from sheer lack of sleep; HUGS - I know how it feels. You are a very good mummy!
 
Thanks Wiebke. I'm feeling upset at the moment - hubby just brought them home from the vets. They've stopped the Baytril as it didn't seem to be helping much, and haven't syringe fed her all day - just hay and veggies. Their reason for this is that her guts are clearly working as she's eating and pooing. Have weighed her - she is 998g - her weight before all this started was around 1050g - 1070g. She's nibbled hay but not as much as she would normally and her breathing is still a little laboured - comes and goes. I've offered her pellets but she's not interested right now. Bearing in mind what you said about not giving too many veggies, should I wait and see if she goes for the pellets? My gut feeling is that we should continue with the syringe feeding but don't want to go against vet advice; what do you think?

I don't know how you coped with your two! That sounds like it was a really tough time.
 
It was a tough time and I was really knackered afterwards, but both piggies are thankfully still with me, so it was well worth it. It can put you through one heck of emotions, though!

Please persist with the syringe feeding; you can also add 1/8 of a dissolved human vitamin C tablet to boost her immune system. If she's not showing any sign of bloating, please try her on veg and see what she eats before giving her formula food. Both URI and baytril are well known to suppress the appetite.

You may also consider adding probiotic or poo soup made by soaking fresh pellets from her companion to help restock her guts. Poo soup is rather disgusting, but recovering guinea pigs will dig in their companions' bums for poos, so it must work!

Just to reassure you, that kind of weight loss is not unusual and Phoebe's weight is not anywhere near dangerously low, so please don't give up!

Perhaps you may want to consult another vet? We've got a piggy savvy vet locator if you want to get a second opinion or another antibiotic: http://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/pages/guinea-pig-vet-locator/
 
Thanks again! Really do appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience. So, try her with the veg first, then the syringe feed (up to 15ml if she'll take it). She's already on Vit C, and just need to make sure I offer drinks. Poo soup? Is that soaked poo to syringe in with the other food? And how much/often?!

Will she ever want to go back to dry nuggets if I keep feeding her the mashed nuggets though? So much I feel like I don't know!

I'll look at the vet locator too.
 
You can offer her some poo soup in a little bowl - most piggies actually like it; make sure that you only use very fresh poos from her healthy friend that are packed with the right bacteria! Otherwise, offer her some before or after feeding. ;

Phoebe will go back to pellets and normal food once she is feeling better in herself and her appetite is coming back. You will notice first by her eating more veg and more recovery food in one go. Then you can start with pellets again.

All the best!
 
Sorry - 'Recovery food' being just the Excel nuggets mashed up with water? Or do you mean something else?
 
No, frankly, whether you feed recovery food or pellet mush doesn't make a difference; the mush has the advantage that it is tasting "right".
 
Thank you so much! Will post again when she improves, hopefully.
 
I really hope she is getting better - I have had the stressful experience of syringe feeding a guinea pig and I really feel for you :(
 
Janey I see you are in Derby, there is a good vets in Alfreton ask to see Ellie Whitehead, she is brilliant, I won't use another vets they are all good down there but Ellie is a piggy specialist. One of mine I thought I was going to lose earlier this year he had a bad URI. He went from 1300g to 980g and I was feeding him by syringe every few hours. Its like us when we are ill with a cold we go off food as can't taste it. I got bisolvan from the vets, you add it to the food and it helps clear the mucus in the nose. I also got antibiotics drops for the nose. He also had an injection to clear any fluid on his lungs. I also had stronger antibiotics, my vets not a fan of baytril. Its now 6 months on and he is as fit as a fiddle :)
 
Thanks Goth Mummy and degu_rock. Took her to Alfreton this morning as I still wasn't happy about her breathing. Ellie wasn't working, but saw another lovely vet. Phoebe had a thorough check over and a scan of her lungs. They are a bit thicker than normal, which suggest pneumonia. I'm armed with Baytril, Metacam and another antibiotic - Ronaxan. This is specifically good for lung type infections I'm told. We tried her with some Oxbow Critical Care whilst there, and the vet suggested feeding her 5ml morning and evening as a supplement, only if she wasn't eating veggies and hay. She did some huge sized normal poos whilst there too - really pleased to see those - they've been really small for a week now! So just about to look up what the best fibre rich veggies are as she needs a wider selection ideally! I have an appt for next week just as a check to see how she's doing, but will obviously take her back before if she deteriorates at all.
 
Porridge oats are good for putting on weight but have to be proper ones either made with water and syringed our put in a bowl.
 
Sweetcorn is a good energy dense veg.

Goood that you could have her seen and treated. Ronaxan is new to me; but then there is a bigger variety of specific ABs being used for piggies, so it is good to know that there is another one!

PS: Just googled ronaxan; it is a variant of doxycycline, which I have seen being used for piggies before.
 
I always get ronaxon and it's a very good antibiotic for uris, I don't touch baytril. I forgot ellies away till Monday, was it Clare you saw? I can't fault Alfreton at all. Corn is a food fibrous veg, also porridge oats as already mentioned :)
 
If she has pneumonia she may also need a diuretic such as Furosemide, please check with your vet about this too :)
 
degu_rock said:
I always get ronaxon and it's a very good antibiotic for uris, I don't touch baytril. I forgot ellies away till Monday, was it Clare you saw? I can't fault Alfreton at all. Corn is a food fibrous veg, also porridge oats as already mentioned :)
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Yes - it was Clare!

Wiebke said:
Sweetcorn is a good energy dense veg.

Goood that you could have her seen and treated. Ronaxan is new to me; but then there is a bigger variety of specific ABs being used for piggies, so it is good to know that there is another one!

PS: Just googled ronaxan; it is a variant of doxycycline, which I have seen being used for piggies before.
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I will try the sweetcorn too then - raw I presume?!

Managed to get all the meds down successfully - although the Ronaxan is tricky as it's a tablet and doesn't crush easily! Managed to pop it in the side of her mouth and she did chew it, thankfully! :)
 
I gave the tiny bit of tablet in food or with water as mine was sneaky. I ask for Clare if Ellies not in, she is great and another good piggy vet. I agree with Poppys mom did she give her any kind of injection to remove fluid off her lungs if she suspected pneumonia? It made world of difference for Rupert. Another tip is vicks on tissues about the cage to keep the airways open :)

Sweetcorn is raw. At this time of year I buy baby corns and chop them up a few times each week as a good builder :)
 
Clare scanned her heart and lung areas, and said there was no fluid around the lungs but they were showing up thicker than normal - ie, whiter on the scan.

Edit: Phoebe's heart looks perfectly normal too!
 
Poppy'sMum said:
If she has pneumonia she may also need a diuretic such as Furosemide, please check with your vet about this too :)
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I agree, diuretic is really important when a pig has pneumonia, it can save lives and certainly helped my Buzz when he had it. Also, I know your vet has their reasons for using the antibiotics that they have but if there is no improvement, please ask them to consider Zithromax.
 
Sorry I don't understand about the diuretic? What does it do?

helen: are you suggesting that antibiotic because you've had good results with it yourself? Just curious.
 
We posted at the same time, so the diuretic may now not be relevant if your vet thinks there is no fluid on the lungs. However, if by any chance you have a stethocope and you listen to the chest and it sounds under water, then there is fluid.

Yes I have had great success with Zithromax as have a few others on the forum. My Buzz got pneumonia out of the blue and was extremely poorly, we asked the vet for Zithromax and offered to sign a disclaimer as it is not licensed for pigs but they agreed. Without it we would have lost him, sadly we did a few months later when he got another even more virulent strain but it gave us a few more months with him. I know that vets like to work out the best antibiotic for the actual situation though but thought it worth mentioning as it is what I always ask my vet for if I suspect pneumonia. We thought Millie had it a few weeks back and the vet let us have a prescription on standby, we didn't need it luckily.

I also recommend Bisolvon if Phoebe is snotty at all and steam therapy using a steam inhaler and 2 drops of Olbas oil. Hold over the nose in 5 second bursts.
 
Thanks for the explanation Helen. Sorry to hear about Buzz though.

I'm learning all the time at the moment - it's good to have people who have so much more knowledge and experience and that are happy to share on here.

Phoebe has a clear nose and eyes right now, so no need for steam inhalations at present.
 
That's good to hear, hopefully she will respond well to the meds she is on.

Thank you, it was a year ago now bless him, he was our little special needs man as he had brain damage from another issue.
 
Janey said:
Yes - it was Clare!



I will try the sweetcorn too then - raw I presume?!

Managed to get all the meds down successfully - although the Ronaxan is tricky as it's a tablet and doesn't crush easily! Managed to pop it in the side of her mouth and she did chew it, thankfully! :)
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All veg always raw! Both mini sweetcorn and big sweetcorn are OK.

Personally, I find it easier to give tablets by syringing them - that way the exact doses goes in. Crush the tablet and then shake it with 1 ml of water in a small bottle (I've asked my vet for an empty one, but a pharmacy should also have some). Always shake well before use. This comes in especially handy when you have to give only 1/4 or 1/10 of a small tablet... or when a piggy is particularly unco-operative with taking their medicine otherwise!

I hope that with all the meds and your ongoing care, Phoebe will make a good and quick recovery! The appetite should come back in the measure that she is feeling better.
 
Wiebke said:
All veg always raw! Both mini sweetcorn and big sweetcorn are OK.

Personally, I find it easier to give tablets by syringing them - that way the exact doses goes in. Crush the tablet and then shake it with 1 ml of water in a small bottle (I've asked my vet for an empty one, but a pharmacy should also have some). Always shake well before use. This comes in especially handy when you have to give only 1/4 or 1/10 of a small tablet... or when a piggy is particularly unco-operative with taking their medicine otherwise!

I hope that with all the meds and your ongoing care, Phoebe will make a good and quick recovery! The appetite should come back in the measure that she is feeling better.
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We do the same Wiebke and use wee test pots from the chemist.
 
That's how I give tablets crushed in a little water via a syringe.I have one who crunches them up himself though. I have used ronaxon multiple times this year and found it to be very effective. Two week course cleared up a serious uri, thought I was going to lose Rupert as he had fluid on his lungs and was very poorly but after a diuretic injection and meds he was right as rain :) It's good the scan showed her lungs to be clear, hopefully she will start to pick up in a day or two :)
 
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