Pigs with Renal Problems/High protien in wee?

[Tbag]

I was just wondering if anyone has had similar problems with their piggies, and what any of the symptoms were/if anything helped?

As some know Mr Tango has been having poo problems for about 3 months now and the cause is still unknown.
A second urine test has now come back exactly the same as the first: clear of any sign of infection or blood, and the only abnormality being high protein levels. It also seemed he was quite sensitive when Ann was feeling his kidney areas - so shes thinking it may be some sort of renal problem, but doesn't know why this would only be affecting his poo-ing capabilities and not his wee or anything else.

He's on metacam for another two weeks to see how that goes as it did seem to alleviate his symptoms on a previous 10 day course. Ann mentioned another poo problem piggie she'd treated with steroids which helped - anyone had any experience with this?

Quick backstory for anyone unfamiliar with his problems:
95% of the time he needs to go for a poo, its preceded by a brief period of pained squeaking/straining, then at least two, sometimes a consecutive amount of up to six, poos will pop out. Apart from this he is otherwise healthy, eating, drinking, playing etc but its obviously causing him a lot of distress at the time.

 

[PiggiePal]

has he been scanned for bladder or kidney stones? They should be able to do an ultrasound without anaesthetic x

 

[Tbag]

oops sorry - forgot to say he had an x-ray come back free of all stones/anything sinister

 

[flintstones]

Patrick has problems urinating and passing pellet's, he has a thread but I'm not sure if the pellets where how it started, he did have a steroid injection that worked well but we decided only to try one. His bladder is has chronic inflammation. We changed his treatment as we needed something long term and we felt Steroids long term where not the solution.

He had 3 Xrays and 3 ultra-sounds all where clear of stones, his last Xray showed 3 stones.

He has a full thread on his problems and has always presented with blood and protein in his urine.

Patrick is on tramadol now for pain killer - and I syringe an additional 40 - 60 mls daily without his barley water he is in a great deal of discomfort.

We are working closely with our vet to try and help him.

 

[Amanda1801]

If he's still in pain on the metacam, I'd talk to the vet about changing the pain relief A) as it's obviously not sufficient, and B) because use of metacam can accelerate renal failure.

A low protein diet would help, have a look at the protein content in the pellets and veg that you feed - it may be worth eliminating pellets from the diet all together if you can provide all the nutrients that he needs with careful veg choices.

 

[Tbag]

Patrick has problems urinating and passing pellet's, he has a thread but I'm not sure if the pellets where how it started, he did have a steroid injection that worked well but we decided only to try one. His bladder is has chronic inflammation. We changed his treatment as we needed something long term and we felt Steroids long term where not the solution.

He had 3 Xrays and 3 ultra-sounds all where clear of stones, his last Xray showed 3 stones.

He has a full thread on his problems and has always presented with blood and protein in his urine.

Patrick is on tramadol now for pain killer - and I syringe an additional 40 - 60 mls daily without his barley water he is in a great deal of discomfort.

We are working closely with our vet to try and help him.

Thanks, I've been keeping tabs on Patrick's thread to see how he's getting on, and to see if there's anything in there that can help me and Mr T! With Tango its just very strange as its only ever poo's, never hear a peep out of him when he has a wee, and whenever he's examined there never seems to be any issues when his bladder's being felt/examined etc.

Thanks for the feedback on steroids, and the tramadol - I'll keep that in mind to mention (though I'm sure she already knows) if the metacam does not help again. Ann said that an ultrasound or blood test would be the next steps if things hadn't changed in 2 weeks time. She mentioned another pig who had a stone show up with a month between x-rays so we're keeping an open mind about that, even though it seems unlikely.

If he's still in pain on the metacam, I'd talk to the vet about changing the pain relief A) as it's obviously not sufficient, and B) because use of metacam can accelerate renal failure.

A low protein diet would help, have a look at the protein content in the pellets and veg that you feed - it may be worth eliminating pellets from the diet all together if you can provide all the nutrients that he needs with careful veg choices.

Thanks for the tip off about metacam. It was working for him when he was on it previously. All I ever hear about Ann (at Ewell) is how great she is with piggies so I'm sure she's aware of the renal issue with it, but if the metacam does not help again then I'll be sure to stop and mention it!

I've cut down on their nuggets and as far as I'm aware they don't have much high protein veg at all. I think carrots are the only thing they get which have significant protein in them?

 

[Pebble]

Hi TBag...Sorry to hear MrT is still having problems. There seem to be two "symptoms" here that may or may not be connected so I'm going to deal with them separately:

Firstly protein in the wee with no blood/leucocytes/sign of infection- some of my pigs do have high protein levels but my vet is not overly concerned unless there are other symptoms as apparently lots of pigs excrete protein in their urine. It can be a sign of kidney issues (and the discomfort when palpating the kidneys could indicate that) but the only way to confirm this would be
a) with a full blood test which is not something any of us (vets included) undertake lightly as an anaesthetic is required and the blood needs to be taken from the large vein near the heart and
b) ultrasound scan of the kidney area to look at size/shape
The blood test however would show if there was any infection (and what type - bacterial protozoal etc) and if there were other disease that could be interfering with kidney function

Squeaking when pooing (but not weeing) is normally first investigated as a symptom of a developing urinary problem - stones or cystitis (caused by bugs or sludge/crystals) or both. Mr T's X rays/urine analysis have come back clear but as Flintstones has pointed out, this may be early days and that doesn;t mean a condition won;t develop later.

However gut motility issues can also cause this (Beech my neutered boy had adhesions where his gut had stuck to his stomach and other tissue) as can impaction, dietary intolerance or problems with boys bits such as a dirty willy. If the willy is encased in smegma/hay/debris then it can become sore and the act of pooing is therefore accompanied by a squawk.

Carson squawked occasionally when he pood and it suddenly got much more frequent accompanied by blood in the wee. Xray, bladder flush and urine analysis suggested an infection which cleared up on septrin. He was also on zantac and meotclopromide for a week to establish a regular rhythm for his guts. This reduced the episodes back to their original frequency but we then found they were linked to veggie intake. Cutting out all veggies from his diet - he is on hay and pellets and dried natural herbage such as dandelions) only has all but stopped the squawking (although he still emits the odd one so I'm still vigilant and test his wee on a regular basis - He also has a slight yeast infection in his perianal sac which we have decided not to do anything about as it doesn;t seem to be causing him any issues)

A further reason for squeaking on pooing can be developing arthritis in the hind legs, shows up on Xray and treatment is with long term metacam (Maple was first diagnosed with this)

There's one more issue that needs to be checked for and that is a blockage of the urethra by a sperm rod (intact boys). It doesn;t show up on Xrays or ultrasound because of what it consists of. This is what happened with Maple who suddenly presented with blood in the urine and a bladder infection. Xrays and ultrasound were clear (apart from his arthritis) . Despite a course of septrin, his squeaking continued. In the end the vet did a bladder flush (because they couldn;t get enough urine directly from the bladder for a culture) and the results came back negative for bugs. The saline flush however dislodged a 1cm diameter object that we think is coagulum/sperm that had hardened inside the urethra and blocked it creating a secondary cystitis. Maple screamed the house down whilst trying to pass this and I'm sure that only the hefty dose of tramadol he had received enabled him to do so. Once he'd got rid of it, he was much better but there is still blood in his urine and we can;t rule out that he is maybe forming another one which, if this is the case, then we may have to consider neutering

continued in next post........

 

[Pebble]

What would I do in your shoes at the moment? Given that his Xrays and urine analysis are clear, and his condition doesn;t deterioriate, I think i would discuss a strategy with my vet such as this in the following order (which could change depending upon how he does and what the findings are):

Ensure all boy bits are clear, clean and free of inflammation. If there is any granular deposit on his willy when extruded as this can give a first indication of crystals/sludge

Increase fluid intake, reduce protein and calcium, increase insoluble fibre (hay) and give probiotics.

Check urine once a week.

Consider a one week course of gut motility to see if this helps.(Alan Maggots is currently on a no veggies diet and given cisapride and zantac with doses gradually being phased out over a four week period - his problem is related to liquified caecal contents/inflammation and breathing issues rather than squawking - although he does show the "raised bum with grumbling" every time he poos)

Consider withdrawing all veggies and see if this helps - again need to monitor/trial this for at least two weeks

Consider further Xrays/ultrasound/urine analysis in one or two months if the situation continues...if clear then

Consider a bladder flush to rule out/dislodge possible sperm rods/coagulum partially blocking the urethra and remove any sludge/crystals from the bladder

Blood test for kidney function - especially if pain in the kidney area is still evident



One other thing I would suggest is to take some fresh poos and shake them in a sealed conainer of water. Test the water with a urine stick for presence of blood and if it is postive report to your vet as this may help in diagnosis (possible stomach ulcer or other type of inflammation in the gut - zantac can hlep with the ulcer, metacam is an anti-inflammatory and you may need to find out if it is related to diet)

Phew - sorry for the epic but at least you have some options to consider with your vet based upon my own experiences with this symptom but differing diagosed causes - Willow (kidney failure resulting from leukaemia) Maple (arthritis and then sperm rod) Carson (diet) Alan Maggots (caecal inflammation and diet still ongoing) Beech (gut adhesions following neutering)

HTH
x

 

[sport_billy]

Hi
we had a very similar issue with Putt (RIP). She would be in lots of pain when pooing and would drop lots in one go. She had no infection and xrays and ultasound showed no signs of stones but did show a inflamed bladder.

Our vet believed it may be down to the ovarian cysts she had (obviously not going to be the case for your boy). She was being treated with cartrophen injections to line the bladder wall, it is an arthertic medicine used to treat dogs and long term cysitisis sp? in cats. After injections she certainly squeaked less when pooing. It maybe worth discussing this with your vet as it may help to relieve symptoms it certainly did for Putt.

Just to stress the cartrophen was for the pain on pooing not the cysts so may help your boy.

HTH

 

[Tbag]

double post.

 

[Tbag]

Gosh - thank you so much everyone for all your help/thoughts on this. Got so many options to consider now.

Pebble you are such an invaluable font of knowledge! It sounds like if the problem doesn't show any sign of changing for better in the next two weeks, or gets any worse (please not!) then an ultrasound is definitely the way forward to go, which is also what Ann was planning/forward thinking to I think.

His man parts do get a bit dirty but they're cleaned regularly and after a good clean it never seems to make any difference to his pooing. I'll also keep a good check on his wee's and monitor those in case they show any signs of paining him/blood. I'll also be certain to do the poo check in water too - this sounds like it could be really helpful to narrowing things down.

He was on septrin for 10 days (as well as the metacam) as Ann thought it could be an infection last time we saw her. But after the 10 days he's squeaking again so it was probably just the metacam stopping him squeaking, rather than the septrin combating an infection.

sport_billy - thanks so much for your info! especially as they seem to be really similar cases, even down to the multiple poo expulsions. If Tangos probable future ultrasound also shows an inflamed bladder then that'd connect things further. Sorry about poor little Putt too