Please help, my boys keep fighting

[SilverCharm]

Hi,

So we got two little boys, names Sirius and Remus, about 2 weeks ago, ages at the time 8-10 weeks (so 10-12 weeks now). They came out of their shells way quicker than we were expecting after our research, which was great! They are so cute to watch.
We first noticed Sirius was trying to be the dominant pig, constantly mounting Remus. However, recently we've noticed he's doing that less and less, and Remus seems to be more in charge than Sirius, now. He will occasionally go to mount Sirius, but often doesn't go all the way, and Sirius will occasionally still attempt to mount Remus from behind but this is becoming less and less frequent. We have also noticed the last couple of days that Remus will nibble on Sirius's ears - we aren't sure if this is a sign of affection, or a sign of dominance as we have been reading different things?

Anyway, during the first week, whilst Sirius thought he was all in charge and constantly trying to hump Remus, Remus was getting more and more pissed off with him. There would be lots of rumbling and teeth chattering between the two of them. We figured this was just them establishing dominance, all normal, kept an eye on them to make sure they weren't hurting each other. They started getting more and more aggressive, longer and louder teeth chattering, head raising, yawning, etc. Occasionally they took a lunge/headbutt at one another, but then ran away from each other and settled down. We were getting more and more concerned, but didn't want to separate them unless we had to. We started giving two piles of foods when feeding, so there would be less cause for argument.

Yesterday, they were lovely. They had a couple of moments, but generally got on really well. When we took Sirius out to clean their cage, Remus looked like he was looking for Sirius until we managed to grab him out, too. Today? Totally different story. They've just headbutted each other about 5 times (whilst I was in a meeting at work!), wouldn't calm down until I opened the cage and both ran for cover. It doesn't look like they have hurt one another, no skin has been cut, I've not noticed any fur in each others mouths, either. Currently, we have them separated - Remus in their cage, and Sirius in the run in the kitchen (as he's the easiest to catch). Do they need to be separated now? Are we freaking out over nothing and they are fine as they haven't drawn blood?

Their current cage is 7.5 sq feet, we get paid this weekend and were going to buy them a 3x5 c&c cage so they get much more room, along with space for two "kitchens". If they need to be separated, could we just make two 2x3 cages next to each other? Would we need them separated across the rooms? Would the bigger cage possibly fix their issues? Are they just being moody teenage boys? Please help! I just wanna do what's best for our pigs :-(

 

[Siikibam]

It sounds like there is already some tension in their relationship as they try to establish who’s top pig. Remus is acting like he doesn’t want to be underpig anymore, which doesn’t bode well for their bond.

I would perhaps separate them for a couple of days now and try bonding them again on neutral ground. But you need to house them next to each other so they can still communicate. It may also depend on Remus’ behaviour when separated. If he’s calm and Sirius is chomping at the bit to get back with him, then you will know it’s likely not a good bond. They are almost at the start of their teenage phase as well.

Have a read of the dominance behaviours below and figure out where they sit. But face offs and lunging isn’t the kind of thing you want to see.
Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs


PS ear nibbling is grooming and showing love

 

[Piggies&buns]

They are getting to their teens, becoming hormonal and establishing their hierarchy. The problem will come if they cannot come to an agreement over who will be dominant. If they both want to be dominant and neither will back down then their relationship will not work.

Normally we say that if blood is drawn then they need to be permanently separated, but if bullying is occurring, then there doesn’t need to be a full on fight before you separate. Bullying on its own is enough so say their relationship isn’t functioning.

7.5 sq ft is where near big enough for two boys though. They need 12 sq ft (or more if you can give it). Lack of space between boars will cause problems (it’s secondary to character compatibility issues but space is a major factor for boars who require a lot of territory). But more space will not fix issues. If they dont like each other and can’t make things work, then you could give them an entire room and it wouldn’t make a difference.

Its fine to give them a temporary cool down period if hormones are getting too much but you can’t keep doing it otherwise all you do is disrupt them and then they start over again. You need to make The decision (or let them do it) on the future of their relationship. Their either need to be permanently together (in which case you’ve established their relationship is fine), or permanently apart (they cannot form a functioning relationship). But, what you cant do is separate them to separate rooms. They must remain in cages next to each other so they can still talk and smell each other.

if they need to be separated, then a 2x3 each is not big enough. They need a 2x4 each.

some further guides to help you

Bonds In Trouble
A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars

 

[SilverCharm]

What

They are getting to their teens, becoming hormonal and establishing their hierarchy. The problem will come if they cannot come to an agreement over who will be dominant. If they both want to be dominant and neither will back down then their relationship will not work.

Normally we say that if blood is drawn then they need to be permanently separated, but if bullying is occurring, then there doesn’t need to be a full on fight before you separate. Bullying on its own is enough so say their relationship isn’t functioning.

7.5 sq ft is where near big enough for two boys though. They need 12 sq ft (or more if you can give it). Lack of space between boars will cause problems (it’s secondary to character compatibility issues but space is a major factor for boars who require a lot of territory). But more space will not fix issues. If they dont like each other and can’t make things work, then you could give them an entire room and it wouldn’t make a difference.

Its fine to give them a temporary cool down period if hormones are getting too much but you can’t keep doing it otherwise all you do is disrupt them and then they start over again. You need to make The decision (or let them do it) on the future of their relationship. Their either need to be permanently together (in which case you’ve established their relationship is fine), or permanently apart (they cannot form a functioning relationship). But, what you cant do is separate them to separate rooms. They must remain in cages next to each other so they can still talk and smell each other.

if they need to be separated, then a 2x3 each is not big enough. They need a 2x4 each.

some further guides to help you

Bonds In Trouble
A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars

exactly do you mean by "bullying"?
Also for the space, we are literally ordering the c&c tomorrow when we get paid (3x5, which I believe is like 20sq feet?), along with a second set of everything (bottle, hay dispenser, litter tray). We are thinking of setting up the run as a cage instead temporarily, which has much more sq footage.

Are we safe to leave them together until (if it happens) blood is drawn, despite the fights? When they aren't fighting, you'll often see them eating together, sometimes even playing together, chasing each other but not aggressively like when they fight.

 

[Piggies&buns]

The guides that have been linked in explain everything.
You need to give them as much space as you can but character compatibility is the deciding factor as to whether they can stay together, not having a big cage. It’s great you’re ordering a new cage tomorrow but it’ll obviously take some time before you get it and it sounds as if their relationship is already tense.

A blood drawing fight means instant and permanent separation but not having a functional relationship even if they aren’t actually fighting yet (because they could fight if they don’t get on) also means separation so you need to determine what is actually going on - you need to determine the level at which their dominance is (mounting, chasing is mild and you leave them to get on with it (it’s a process they have to go through) but loud chattering, lunging is much more serious and is a warning sign that a full on fight could break out at any moment) and the guide @Siikibam linked in explains dominance and when things are going too far. The bonds in trouble guide I linked in explains how to carry out a temporary separation and neutral territory reintroduction to determine whether their relationship has a chance. If they both want to be dominant and neither backs down, then they will fight and they won’t be able to stay together.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi!

Please take the time to read the green guide links in this thread. They will explain everything in much more detail than we can in a single post.
Be aware that switching to a new territory (and a new cage or an extension counts as that) requires a renewed hierarchy establishment. In boars who are already struggling, this can be a recipe for a fall-out, even in adult boars. You can find more information and tips on that issue in our Boar guide, chapter 3.
A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars

All the best.