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poppy

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trudy2995

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Hi
sorry but Iam not a regular visitor to this site but wondered if anyone could offer me some advice please?
I have kept guinea pigs since 1999.
I currently have 5 guinea pigs aswell as other animals.
I have in the past used a rodentologist and was fortunate enough to meet the late Peter Gurney before he died.
My problem is.......

I have Poppy just over 4yrs old. She has suffered from ovarian cysts previously but we decided to leave her be instead of operating on her. She has also suffered from frequent cystitis with blood in her urine.
Her ovaries got quite big, but never seemed to bother her at all, then she lost most of her fur at her rear end which apparently is common with ovarian cysts.. Then a month or two ago there was blood over her bedding again so I treated her with baytril and metacam for cystitis and over the course her lumps went down dramatically and her fur came back! I thought wow back to normal again! Even though a bit skinny.
Anyway last week I noticed blood again so went back onto the baytril and metacam, but I also noticed bumblefoot , her left foot very swollen. I read up and found baytril was the best option so carried on with that and the metacam and applied a bumblefoot treatment from gorgeous guinea's . Monday her breathing was really bad and she went off her food totally. I syringe fed her and continued the beds but she had like given up! her breathing appeared very laboured and like panting,I put a dab of vic on her nose. I read up and it appeared either a heart or kidney problem or respitory? I remember one of my old piggies being like this and she was prescribed by a vet diuretic drug frusemide. I did still have some but they were a little out of date.
Anyway I gave her some frusemide, maxolon to get her guts moving. I took her to the vets Tuesday after coming off nights but the vet didn't appear to be any wiser than me and just said to carry on with baytril 0.25mls twice a day and metacam. I have in fact been told that 0.4mls twice a day is the best treatment from an expert at gorgeous guinea's so I have upped the dose.
Tuesday and Wednesday she appeared really bad, I kept her inside and syringe fed her as she wouldn't eat, the urge seemed there to eat but she would nibble and then like get fed up. Her breathing was really bad and she was very lethargic.
I read up in my Piggy potions book and thought well nothing to loose, as I was afraid she was dying anyway, so incase of bronchitis gave her sudafed, bisolovon and vic on her nose . Aswell as frusemide, maxolon, baytril, metacam, fibreplex. Syringe fed her critical care , recovery etc, probiotic.
Then gave metatone, malt extract and honey for tonics.And some denes herbal tablets incase of kidneys.
You name it I probably gave it to her!
I put her back out with the other piggys last night with her snuggle pad.
Today she seems brighter! and she was out and about with the others, I brought her in to give her the meds and she actually ate a few leave of veggies.But I backed it up with syringe feeding too as she as lost a lot of weight. Her breathing is still a bit gasping though, but not as bad I am sure as it was.
My only trouble is now after all the meds I have given her Iam not sure which to stop! Was it the frusemide that has been helping her or the kidney meds?, or the respitory meds? I gave her all the meds as I was desperate and the vet didn't have a clue , and she looked at deaths door!
I am grateful of any advice.
Thanks
Trudy
x
 
Great to hear you're on top of things - not many owners would be quite as up to speed as you have been! Well done for acting quickly. Something you have done has worked. I did predict your overall question when I read about what you gave her though - I would be stuck too!

The laboured breathing is typically respiratory. Hence the frusemide will have helped - diuretic is generally given as a one-off dose or just two or three small doses anyway, so there should be no need to continue with the frusemide at this time unless her breathing is still notably impaired.

The Sudafed may also have helped. You need to keep going with one or two of the meds - preferably Baytril, with it being an antibiotic. The dose of 0.4ml twice daily should be helpful. The Metatone and other "energy complexes" (as such!) will have also helped a lot, given her some much needed energy, and will hopefully spark her appetite. Maxolon (metaclopromide) is something of a gut stimulent ("motility drug", more formally!) which should have helped keep the digestive system moving as you fed the Critical Care.

Of everything you've listed, assuming the problem is primarily a respiratory infection, I would stick with the minimum of:

Baytril - antibiotic to fight the infection;
Bisolvon - good for respiratory illnesses, a secretolic that deals with any mucus in the airways;
Critical Care/Science Recovery - any of the syringe-feed formulas or home-made pellet mashes until she is eating normally;
Metatone - to encourage a good appetite and keep energy levels up.

It may be worth giving another couple of doses of Sudafed, I found this very useful for some respiratory issues. I'm not sure about continuing the Maxolon or Fibreplex - they mostly depend on how well her eating and pooping goes! If she's pooping and taking her syringe feeds well, I'd be inclined to hold off on those meds.

For now, purely based on the current symptoms you described, I would assume a simple respiratory infection and treat as such unless other symptoms return/develop. Heart disease patients frequently display other symptoms that are present/have built up over a period of time. I must add that I've not come across kidney trouble myself before, so I can't advise on that side of things.
 
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Just to add -

As always, though, do discuss this with your vet! Even though the vet is stumped, it is worth discussing your treatment plans with him (or her) so they know what route you are taking and can advise/assist as needed.
 
Sorry just found out how to reply!
thanks for your answer, very much appreciated. I did mention to the vet Peter Gurneys remedies and actually took my piggy potions book in but got the impression she wasn't over impressed.
As for acting quickly lol, I was all over the place and in between night shifts and only got 4hrs sleep before back on nights again, last night I had to do a sickie as felt poorly probably through lack of sleep due to my animals.........but there worth it! Don't tell the boss though!
Her breathing is still noticable, but she is trying to eat and looks alot more perky.
I have two Peter Gurney piggy potions books (not sure how I gained two!)and both state different doses on the sudafed, one 0.2mls x2 daily and the other 0.4mls x 2 daily, do you have a clue which is right please?
I'm keeping with the baytril and metacam for her foot anyway to try and fight whatever that is, presumably bumblefoot.
What are the other symptons of heart disease please just to totally rule it out? Because her lips were very pale, but the vet actually thought her heart sounded ok though.
Poppy is usually one that loves warmth and will go mad for a snuggle pad but the last day or two where I wanted to keep her warm she has been sat off it. Maybe she had a temperature?
I did questionthe vet about only 0.2mls of baytril twice a day and she looked it up and still said that was correct, even though others state 0.4mls x2 daily.
How long would you think I needed to carry on with the meds for? can they be dangerous if on too long?
I've made up some pureed veggies and fruit dishes for her today just to make syre she is eating, because she is a sly one and will eat whilst watching her then give up as soon as you leave her.
Thanks again for your reply.
Trudy
x
 
I'm glad you found some of the info useful!

The usual length of a course of Baytril is 7-10 days, so depending on her condition, if you give at the dose of 0.4ml twice daily that should clear an infection up within that sort of time frame. I wouldn't want to keep a pig on antibiotics for much more than a month. Antibiotics can have a detrimental effect on the gut - hence the use of probiotics especially with notoriously strong medicines like Baytril. But even with probiotic, I would be loathe to dose the pig with any antibiotic for more than a month unless a specific medical condition proved that it was necessary.

The dose for Sudafed I always use is 0.2ml twice daily (or 0.4ml once daily).

The most common heart disease symptoms tend to go unmissed and put down to other factors, which is why heart trouble isn't considered. Lethargy, recurring dental problems, recurring respiratory infections, and fluid retention (swollen abdomen caused by fluid) are among the most usual signs. Pale/bluish skin is another sign - logical since heart trouble affects the circulation! Pigs who sleep very deeply and who are very easy to pick up (both examples of unusual behaviour for most guinea pigs) quite often turn out to have a heart problem.

Even pigs who have had their hearts listened to frequently can have heart disease - the vets believe that if things "sound" okay, then the heart must be fine. Pigs with normal heart rates can prove to have significantly enlarged hearts on an xray. In short, a thorough examination of the patient and a detailed look at the medical history and present symptoms should indicate whether further tests (xray, ECG) are necessary. Heart disease can be managed, usually with doses of Lasix (to treat fluid on the lungs) and/or a drug called enalapril, which is usually given once or twice daily for life at the minimum effective dose.

http://www.guinealynx.info/heart.html

I should also add that it is thought guinea pigs with heart trouble are more prone to developing bumblefoot, due to the lethargy causing the reduced activity. Treatment of bumblefoot can be tricky to figure out. Some people give antibiotics, others don't. Personally, I have noticed the same improvement (in some cases, lack of improvement) with both choices, it seems to be one of those troubles that you just have to go along with and try different things, see what has the most effect.
 
Thanks for writing again.
Poppy seems a lot better, eating again and a lot more with it.Still very very skinny though.Her breathing appears a lot better, not 100% but a great deal better than it was! As I thought she was at deaths door the other day.
Her foot seems to have gone down a touch, but still swollen.
Not sure what is working what Iam giving her but something is!

I noticed yesterday her ear looked hmmm how do I decribe it...like singed, I bathed it and applied sudocrem. Today under protest (she had the energy to nearly jump over my shoulder because it must be that sore). Anyway what I thought was like singed, black dried curled up skin, turned out to be a massive scab on bathing it. Anyway bathed that off and it does look very sore so applied antiseptic, and ear mite drops just incase of mites.
I asked the vet how long to keep her on the baytril and she just replied well I have given you 25mls! So don't know whether to keep her on it until her foot goes down or...? Or like you say it might not go down anyway with antibiotics.
Thank you for thelink on heart disease too, very much appreciated.
May I ask are you in the UK or USA?
Just trying to find a decent vet that understands!
I am in the Northwest of the UK.
I have looked at the groups list but there seems non near me.

Thanks again for everything, it is very much appreciated.
Trudy
x
 
I have no idea about any of this but ladies I just wanted to say WOW. You both really know your stuff eh? Think I may need to save these posts just in case one day.

Hope Poppy gets better and you find a vet that can help.
 
Thanks
After 10 years of guinea pigs and rabbits I'm still learning though!
Learnt a lot through the late Peter Gurney and his books aswell as a brillaint rodentologist called Gina in Warrington.
Trudy
 
Thanks Lisa. :) Having been through many illnesses with my piggies over the last few years, I truly appreciate just how much the support and advice from others means to someone when their piggie is ill. The legacy of all my piggies is the knowledge I have gained from caring for them and the way that I use that knowledge to help others.

Trudy, I am also in UK, though I'm not aware of any decent vets in the North West. Could Gina recommend a vet? There are a few North West members here, I am sure they have mentioned some good vets - have you looked in the Recommended Vets sticky?:
http://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1788

I appreciate how difficult it is to find a decent vet who is willing to listen to you, accept your own knowledge and ideas, and work with you on finding solutions. Too many vets dismiss owners as having no knowledge, when in fact it is usually the other way around. rolleyes

Interesting how your current vet wouldn't give you a specific answer when you asked about the Baytril. Sounds like she's given up already! Personally, I would keep Poppy on Baytril for 10 days. You are aiming to combat the respiratory problem with this - but if it is going to help with the bumblefoot, then it has a good chance to start having an effect. If after 10 days there is no change and no improvement, then consider withdrawing the Baytril and seeing how she does on Metacam and foot soaks/cream.

The scab on the ear could be a skin problem, though without seeing it it is naturally hard to say. The sudocrem should help in the short term, until you are able to identify if it is just a localised problem or a potential skin problem.

How much does Poppy weigh? Are you weighing her frequently? If you can, do try to weigh daily while she is ill - it will give you a better idea of how well she is doing and if she needs more syringe-feeds.
 
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