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Possible Cancer, Not Eating Or Drinking - When To Pts?

LozzyBee

LozzyBee

Junior Guinea Pig
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Firstly, mods, I'm very sorry for two posts. I had a moan on 'chat', but things have changed and I need some advice here now.

We are awaiting the results of a biopsy our piggie, Barlo, had last weekend. Blood test results have come back and shown that his white blood cell count is low, so it is possible its cancer. At the time, the vet did say that if it's a particular type, it's possible it can be controlled with drugs.

However, while we've been waiting for the results, he has come up with another lump on the other side of his neck.

He stayed at the vets while we went away for the weekend (booked an eternity ago, just very bad timing!)...they have been syringe feeding him, but he's still lost weight.

I collected him today and I'm struggling to get any critical care in to him. He just seems to be storing it all up in his mouth.

In his cage, he has had a couple of wander around sessions, but mostly has been hiding under the hay. He puts up a good fight when I try to feed him, so still has energy....but I just feel it's time for him to go. How do you come to this decision when you're not qualified to? They're hoping for the results of the biopsy tomorrow, but at moment I can't see there being anything short of a miracle that would bring him back to the Barlo he was before this.

I haven't been in this position before - when our last Guinea pig was PTS, it was clear there was no other decision. I was 100% sure then. This time it's like 80%. I don't want him to suffer...but I don't want to have him PTS if there's a chance.

What would you do in this situation? I'm going to make an appointment tomorrow, but I just wanted some honest advice first.

Thank you
 
It definitely is a hard decision, I've been there with all 3 of my piggies that passed away. All to different reasons, one didn't even make it to the vets.

All you have to think of, if YOU think it is better for him to be euthanised then it is the correct way to go. If he is suffering, not eating and living a good way of life anymore, then it would be the best thing to do. I would wait until you have the results and decide from there, but that is me personally. I always have the slightest bit of hope even when there clearly isn't any.

Wait until you have the results, but if he drops even more, then I would recommend him to be PTS. But if there is a chance, then I (personally) would go for it if you have the money saved up, as it can get quite expensive (Although in this situation, money isn't the main decision)

I wish you all the best.
 
The decision to PTS is the hardest part of responsible and loving pet ownership. I am firmly of the view that it's better to take the decision a day or a week too soon than a minute too late. No-one knows your piggy like you do. Trust yourself to make the right decision either way. Hugs.
 
LozzyBee said:
Firstly, mods, I'm very sorry for two posts. I had a moan on 'chat', but things have changed and I need some advice here now.

We are awaiting the results of a biopsy our piggie, Barlo, had last weekend. Blood test results have come back and shown that his white blood cell count is low, so it is possible its cancer. At the time, the vet did say that if it's a particular type, it's possible it can be controlled with drugs.

However, while we've been waiting for the results, he has come up with another lump on the other side of his neck.

He stayed at the vets while we went away for the weekend (booked an eternity ago, just very bad timing!)...they have been syringe feeding him, but he's still lost weight.

I collected him today and I'm struggling to get any critical care in to him. He just seems to be storing it all up in his mouth.

In his cage, he has had a couple of wander around sessions, but mostly has been hiding under the hay. He puts up a good fight when I try to feed him, so still has energy....but I just feel it's time for him to go. How do you come to this decision when you're not qualified to? They're hoping for the results of the biopsy tomorrow, but at moment I can't see there being anything short of a miracle that would bring him back to the Barlo he was before this.

I haven't been in this position before - when our last Guinea pig was PTS, it was clear there was no other decision. I was 100% sure then. This time it's like 80%. I don't want him to suffer...but I don't want to have him PTS if there's a chance.

What would you do in this situation? I'm going to make an appointment tomorrow, but I just wanted some honest advice first.

Thank you
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HUGS

When you come up to the line, there is no right or wrong as long as you make your decision with your piggy's welfare first and foremost in mind. We all draw the line a bit differently because each owner and each piggy is unique. There is no one fixed rule that covers it all. Listen to your heart and go with your gut instinct.

It is always hardest when the whole responsibility is resting on you and the circumstances are not such that pts is the only thing left that you can do for your beloved one.

You are within the area where pts can be justified. If your piggy is fighting its feed that much, it is either very ill or already unable to process any food anymore, especially if the struggle your piggy is putting up against the syringe is by far in excess of its current strength.

If you have doubts, any good vet will give you their honest opinion if you ask them for it, so you can make any decision on as informed a basis as possible.

Feelings of doubt and guilt are always inevitable after pts, but please keep in mind that whatever you do is for the best of your piggy and that you are not failing it in any way.
 
Ditto to all of the advice above. Only you know when it's time and like Wiebke says it is completely understandable if you decided that today was the day.

I base my decision on how well I am able to help my pig. Do I have the time to feed him as much as he needs? It might sound cruel basing his life on my spare time but I always want to give them 100% and I couldn't bear to not be able to do that and so he suffers.

I had to make the decision in January. My boy was doing okay for a week but it got to the point where he wasn't enjoying his life. He would take the food okay, not great but he just wasn't happy. His spark was gone.

Of course I wanted him to survive but on taking him to my vet and having a discussion we decided it was time.
 
Thank you so much everybody.

My gut feeling is telling me it's time (I think...). I think I'm struggling with the 'what ifs' right now, but realistically, I think his body is already shutting down. Even if the cancer (if it is) is controllable, he's not in a state now for it to be controlled. If it's going to be controlled at the level he's currently at, then it's no life for him.

I agree with your stance @VickiA - too soon is better than too late. I wish we had let our last piggie go earlier, but at the time, I wanted to give it one last try so I knew I had done everything I possibly could. I'm glad I did, but at the same time, I wish I hadn't.

I am going to phone the vet first thing, get my girls to say their goodbyes, and get an opinion from the vet. I can't see it being any different to my own to be honest :(

Thank you xx
 
Huge hugs to you. I had to make that decision just a couple of weeks ago. I know how hard it is. I know all about those troublesome "what ifs". I think you just have to trust your gut instinct and be guided by your vet.
 
I've been there myself several times; out of the five piggies I have lost this year so far, three had to be pts; two as an emergency to spare them any further suffering.

I find that the most difficult stage is to decide whether or when is the right time when you come very close to it; exactly where you are now. As we have a different relationship with every piggy, there is no set point. Depending on the general fitness, discomfort, and situation, it is a process of assessing, reassessing and the inevitable soul searching. If the overall prognosis is not good and a piggy is already very frails, then I tend to draw the line earlier than if there is still a real chance of pulling a piggy through and buying it years of life. :(

I hope that that helps you. It always a horrible time!
 
An update...went to the vets this morning. They finally have the results of the biopsy - and it's not cancer (I didn't ever put the history here - Barlo woke with a head tilt a couple of weekends ago, took him to the vets who found a lump and suspected an abscess - opened him up and found it wasn't an abscess...). However, they're still not sure what's going on other than some nasty bacterial bug.

With this in mind, the vet is keen to try Barlo back on metacam, his antibiotics, gut stimulants, and to persevere with critical care for the next couple of days. He did initially show some improvement on metacam, but it had to be stopped as he had diarrhoea on it.

So, back home with him...not sure I'm hopeful or not, but I feel like this is my final proper shot with him.

Not sure how my girls are going to feel when they return home from school...I got them to say their goodbyes this morning...
 
Wishing you all the best! It is a very difficult time when your emotions go from one extreme to another and you also have children. Best tell your girls that he is still very ill but that your vet thinks it is worth trying for a bit longer.

Would you consider trying a course of fibreplex? It helps to rebuild or strengthen the digestion after an adverse reaction to antibiotics or often with ongoing tummy troubles. It has worked for me after Nosgan had an adverse reaction to zithromax and lost quite a bit of weight despite my syringe feeding.
Fibreplex for Rabbits and Small Rodents - From £7.58
 
Wiebke said:
Wishing you all the best! It is a very difficult time when your emotions go from one extreme to another and you also have children. Best tell your girls that he is still very ill but that your vet thinks it is worth trying for a bit longer.

Would you consider trying a course of fibreplex? It helps to rebuild or strengthen the digestion after an adverse reaction to antibiotics or often with ongoing tummy troubles. It has worked for me after Nosgan had an adverse reaction to zithromax and lost quite a bit of weight despite my syringe feeding.
Fibreplex for Rabbits and Small Rodents - From £7.58
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I have just ordered some, thank you. He's on Baytril, and metronidazole, so I think he needs all the help he can get.

The vet is hoping he may improve back on the metacam (smaller dose than before) and it will encourage him to eat...we shall see.
 
I hope he gets on OK to. Have you asked the vet how to hold him when he is syringe fed. You may get on better with there way. How long has he been losing weight & what did the vet said. That fibreplax is brilliant.
 
Tiamolly123 said:
I hope he gets on OK to. Have you asked the vet how to hold him when he is syringe fed. You may get on better with there way. How long has he been losing weight & what did the vet said. That fibreplax is brilliant.
Click to expand...

Hi, I didn't ask the vet what their technique was - I don't actually think they got on any better than me, as I left him there at 1000g, and collected him at 920g. Today he's 900g. But he has produced a few very small poops which is an improvement on yesterday. He started off at 1200g, so it's been a big drop.

The vet is hoping that he will improve on metacam (he was originally on it, but it caused diarrhoea, so they changed it to Zydol? Begins with a Z anyway...). Metacam has anti inflammatories that the one beginning with Z doesn't have...however, whether I can actually get metacam in to him is another matter entirely. He had an injection at the vets and they hoped that it would kick in to make his next dose more manageable for me.

I have an awful feeling I am just prolonging the agony for all of us to be honest, but I may be proven wrong, let's hope so.
 
Just to update on this...I can (somewhat tentatively) report that against all odds, Barlo is showing some signs of improvement.

He has been less reluctant at syringe feeding time, has gone from 900g to 940g, is having a little nibble of hay now and then, and is now showing interest in what his cage mate is up to. He even wheeked yesterday when I walked through the front room with my daughters dinner which had a side of cucumber! A big improvement on sitting hunched in the corner and refusing to take anything from me.

I'm not sure what has made the difference. The two main things are he was taken off Zydol and put on to a smaller dose of metacam instead, and I have been giving him fibreplex.

We still don't really know what he's fighting, which is why I'm tentative about him being out of the woods, but he's definitely doing better.

Also, anyone reading this, without sounding patronising, if you haven't already - please find a good vet for your piggies! The difference in standard and care this time around in comparison to when we lost Barnaby last year is just unreal. This vet is a 45min - 1hr drive away (dependant on time of day!), but I don't regret it for a second. Even with our other piggie Elvis - took him to two local vets (one exotic) suspecting teeth trouble and neither of them picked up on it. This new vet picked up on it straight away...unfortunately he now needs regular treatment up in Northampton, but, they spotted it. I could have just gone on thinking it was just a 'sore tongue' as the other two vets had told me!
 
If you're talking about Kim and Simon at the Cat and Rabbit Care Clinic then I agree, they're fantastic.

Having a good vet is the best thing you can do for your piggy. I use Simon and Kim too, it's an hours drive for me also but it's worth it.

I'm glad your little guy is improving, I really hope he continues. Fantastic news:D:D:eek:
 
Jaycey said:
If you're talking about Kim and Simon at the Cat and Rabbit Care Clinic then I agree, they're fantastic.

Having a good vet is the best thing you can do for your piggy. I use Simon and Kim too, it's an hours drive for me also but it's worth it.

I'm glad your little guy is improving, I really hope he continues. Fantastic news:D:D:eek:
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I do use Simon and Kim for Elvis's teeth troubles - I wish they were an hour away for me - 2.5hrs for me - and he's unlikely to ever go more than 2-3 weeks max without a dental:help:! They're excellent though, and there's no way I could have him go under a general that often!

For our day to day vet needs we use the place an hour away, they're the ones who have given Barlo (currently sniffing around trying to eat Elvis' poo's straight from the source...) a new lease of life. Not convenient, but for peace of mind it's a no brainer!
 
In the interests of following up, I am back with another (long!) update!

Shortly after I posted how well Barlo was doing, he suddenly began dropping weight again - I found it really hard getting his critical care in to him. He would just dribble it all back out no matter where I aimed it. Kept wondering if I was doing something wrong, but then I am also syringe feeding our other piggie and he takes it with no problems at all.

He was still really interested in food, would still squeak for it, still come up to me for veg, but then just sniff it and walk away. Because of this, I wondered if there was a dental issue going on. I was due to take our other piggie Elvis up to the cat and rabbit clinic and phoned to see if I could get Barlo in too but they were fully booked. The guinea pig gods of fate we're smiling down on me though, because when I took Elvis up to see Kim, a lady came in and cancelled an appointment two slots after Elvis' one, so I nabbed that for Barlo! Kim filed his teeth which she said weren't actually that bad, but she did diagnose oral thrush - his mouth is full of ulcers and lesions and she's surprised he's eating anything at all. So, she prescribed Itrafungol and off we went.


The next day, I had to take him back to the vet who has been checking in on his lump on his neck. It has massively reduced, there's still a little lump there, but the vet thinks it could just be scar tissue. He's on antibiotics for another week and will see how he's doing after that point.


However...I told the vet that he had seen Kim and she had diagnosed oral thrush and that they had filed his teeth. He had a look in his mouth, and because Barlo's front teeth are still slanted where they meet, he thinks there's still a dental issue there and that he needs to be booked in under a general for a full teeth file. Having said this, he did also say he couldn't see the back teeth because he still had a heap of critical care in there :-/. I said I'd have a think about it, but in reality, I've shuffled around Elvis' next appointment at the Cat and Rabbit clinic so I can get Barlo looked at again too. I am so very reluctant to have him put under a GA again, and I think its unnecessary...but then I'm not a vet!


Added to this, since his dental, he has done a much better job at keeping the critical care actually in his mouth, and he's actually been eating hay the whole time I've been typing this message (obv AGES because this is very long!)


The one thing I will say, is that despite all of this going on, Barlo has continued to be himself. When I first started this post, he was at deaths door in my opinion, but since his initial turn around he has been his usual self. It's making me even more determined to get somewhere with him. I still don't know I am really just fighting a losing battle, but at least I'm trying.


Ooooh, also, the vet I saw yesterday re the lump on his neck has upped his dose of Baytril. He was on 0.87ml, he's upped it to 1.12ml (Barlo weighed 880g at the vets yesterday). I queried it and he said there's a range and he usually goes for the higher end...what do you reckon? Sounds an awful lot for such a little piggie, plus he's on 0.54ml metronidazole 2x a day....am I being over cautious?


If you have made it to the end of this - congratulations, and thank you for your time x
 
So glad Barlo is doing better since seeing Kim. Please don't let the other vet do a dental, as the likely reason for the teeth still being slanted could be due to him maybe favouring one side of his mouth due to the soreness, rather than a 'dental issue' as such. Get Kim or Simon to check again soon, and they will be able to quickly tidy up the teeth and hopefully by then his mouth will be feeling much less sore.

I have seen too many other vets make a dental issue, rather than cure one and I worry all the good that Kim has done will be wiped out by a less experienced dental vet.

The baytril dosage you've been prescribed is huge and I would worry about giving such a massive dose, but then I don't like baytril and find it pretty useless, with other antibiotics being much more effective.
 
furryfriends (TEAS) said:
So glad Barlo is doing better since seeing Kim. Please don't let the other vet do a dental, as the likely reason for the teeth still being slanted could be due to him maybe favouring one side of his mouth due to the soreness, rather than a 'dental issue' as such. Get Kim or Simon to check again soon, and they will be able to quickly tidy up the teeth and hopefully by then his mouth will be feeling much less sore.

I have seen too many other vets make a dental issue, rather than cure one and I worry all the good that Kim has done will be wiped out by a less experienced dental vet.

The baytril dosage you've been prescribed is huge and I would worry about giving such a massive dose, but then I don't like baytril and find it pretty useless, with other antibiotics being much more effective.
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Thanks for the reply - you've really confirmed what I was thinking. I've got Barlo booked in to be looked at again next Tues. I'm so reluctant to have him go under another general if not necessary, plus in my opinion he can't get any better than Kim and Simon, so I don't want to potentially undo what has already been done!

He hasn't touched nuggets, but he's had a good go at hay and grass which is a huge improvement on the past 3 weeks, so I'll stick with what my plans are - back to Kim on 1st.

Thank you
 
Hope he goes back to full health. But I agree with furry friends don't let him touch Barlo teeth, he's on the way up with Kim & Simon. Can they give him any better antibiotics.
 
Tiamolly123 said:
Hope he goes back to full health. But I agree with furry friends don't let him touch Barlo teeth, he's on the way up with Kim & Simon. Can they give him any better antibiotics.
Click to expand...

I won't! He's actually been eating more than usual today - nuggets and hay, and a little veg. I'm going to leave him be until next week, monitor his weight, and see what Kim and Simon think on Tuesday.

Antibiotics - the lump has massively reduced to the point the vet thinks it may just be scar tissue that's there now. It was metacam that seemed to have the biggest effect on helping him (apparently because of the anti inflammatories).

I personally think the issue is more whatever's going on in his mouth at the moment, but then as I keep saying - I'm
not a vet!
 
I'm back :-/

Latest update - Barlo has been squeaking when pooping today. Got him an appointment to see the vet, she examined him and he's very unhappy when you touch his tummy - however, no obvious issues there :-/.
The vet did a conscious x Ray, all came back clear (did show up an ear infection). He's been eating as usual, and pooping as usual (except for the squeaking...), I'm a bit clueless. She gave him a pain relief injection (morphine) and has asked that I call back in the morning and let her know how he is...any ideas anyone?
 
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