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Potential Bladder Stones - Prognosis

Pumpkin&Courage

Pumpkin&Courage

New Born Pup
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Hi all,

I'll start by saying ultimately I will be guided by the vets advice but I would be grateful to hear from people who have experienced similar on here.

Courage, my male 1.5 year old pig, has been in pain since last friday when going to the toilet. I called the 1st vet straight away and was seen on Saturday lunchtime (3rd Aug). Courage appeared to be struggling and squeeking whenever passing urine and stool, but at that point I had not noticed any blood. The vet said he felt gassy and prescribed Baytrill (0.7ml once a day - Courage weighed in at 1.170kg at the time) and asked to see him again monday lunchtime - at which point he would have only had two doses of the Baytrill. I felt this was quite soon, but rebooked. Monday came, Courage was no better, the vet said to finish the course of Baytrill and also prescribed Metacam 0.5 (0.7ml dose once a day - Courage was not re-weighed but was off his food at this point). The vet was very hesitant and had to keep going out the back to check things. At this point it's cost nearly £300 in fees and medication and I don't seem to be any further to knowing what's wrong or what treatment path he will take.

He said to finish out the dose which took us to Friday. I could not be seen on Friday but instead had a call with the vet - I explained that he is passing stool without any issue, it is now only when he urinates that he is struggling, and there has been significant amounts of blood in his urine. The painkiller doesn't seem to be making much of a difference, he is clearly still in pain. His weight has dropped to 1.100kg a loss of 70g in less than a week.

The vet said the next option was an xray and surgery and this was estimated to cost £1,000! He said the chances of survival were low and sounded very resigned. Obviously, I was devastated but due to the demeanour of the vet, I sought a second opinion.

I have been to see a second vet today. She was much more confident with him, confirmed all treatment to date and noticed that Courage has been in quite a bit of pain. She said the quote for an xray and surgery seemed quite high. She has prescribed him the stronger version of Metacam twice a day at a lower dose (0.2ml twice a day) as she said they metabolise it quickly, and booked him in for a scan on Monday to check for stones. She said that this will guide further treatment. He was also reweighed and is down again to 1.050kg - she admitted this may be due to the change in scales.

Given he is already down a lot of weight and clearly in a lot of pain, my family and friends have suggested not putting him through surgery if this is the next step and simply putting him to sleep (as a kindness and due to him being unlikely to survive - he is already so frail and offcolour). The new vet has not suggested this but I couldn't bear to put him through surgery if he was only to pass in pain later on as seems to happen to similar posters on this forum. I don't know if I could broach this with the vet - does this make me an awful person - I feel pretty awful.

I'm worried the delay from the first vet means we have missed the opportunity to get him better. I really don't know what to do. Those that have had the surgery - what was your outcome? How long did your pigs wait before surgery and how were they health wise before they undertook the surgery?
 
I had a piggy go through similar not so long ago. He spent a day and a half with the vet before surgery to be syringe fed round the clock to feed him up. He came through the surgery really well. Unfortunately in my case he went back downhill 2 weeks later with his other kidney being enlarged but if that hadn't happened I have no doubt he would have made a very quick recovery. Part of your decision will be based on where the stone is and the vets confidence to remove it. Let me dig out Donald's thread
 
Pumpkin&Courage said:
Hi all,

I'll start by saying ultimately I will be guided by the vets advice but I would be grateful to hear from people who have experienced similar on here.

Courage, my male 1.5 year old pig, has been in pain since last friday when going to the toilet. I called the 1st vet straight away and was seen on Saturday lunchtime (3rd Aug). Courage appeared to be struggling and squeeking whenever passing urine and stool, but at that point I had not noticed any blood. The vet said he felt gassy and prescribed Baytrill (0.7ml once a day - Courage weighed in at 1.170kg at the time) and asked to see him again monday lunchtime - at which point he would have only had two doses of the Baytrill. I felt this was quite soon, but rebooked. Monday came, Courage was no better, the vet said to finish the course of Baytrill and also prescribed Metacam 0.5 (0.7ml dose once a day - Courage was not re-weighed but was off his food at this point). The vet was very hesitant and had to keep going out the back to check things. At this point it's cost nearly £300 in fees and medication and I don't seem to be any further to knowing what's wrong or what treatment path he will take.

He said to finish out the dose which took us to Friday. I could not be seen on Friday but instead had a call with the vet - I explained that he is passing stool without any issue, it is now only when he urinates that he is struggling, and there has been significant amounts of blood in his urine. The painkiller doesn't seem to be making much of a difference, he is clearly still in pain. His weight has dropped to 1.100kg a loss of 70g in less than a week.

The vet said the next option was an xray and surgery and this was estimated to cost £1,000! He said the chances of survival were low and sounded very resigned. Obviously, I was devastated but due to the demeanour of the vet, I sought a second opinion.

I have been to see a second vet today. She was much more confident with him, confirmed all treatment to date and noticed that Courage has been in quite a bit of pain. She said the quote for an xray and surgery seemed quite high. She has prescribed him the stronger version of Metacam twice a day at a lower dose (0.2ml twice a day) as she said they metabolise it quickly, and booked him in for a scan on Monday to check for stones. She said that this will guide further treatment. He was also reweighed and is down again to 1.050kg - she admitted this may be due to the change in scales.

Given he is already down a lot of weight and clearly in a lot of pain, my family and friends have suggested not putting him through surgery if this is the next step and simply putting him to sleep (as a kindness and due to him being unlikely to survive - he is already so frail and offcolour). The new vet has not suggested this but I couldn't bear to put him through surgery if he was only to pass in pain later on as seems to happen to similar posters on this forum. I don't know if I could broach this with the vet - does this make me an awful person - I feel pretty awful.

I'm worried the delay from the first vet means we have missed the opportunity to get him better. I really don't know what to do. Those that have had the surgery - what was your outcome? How long did your pigs wait before surgery and how were they health wise before they undertook the surgery?
Click to expand...

Hi and welcome

I am very sorry that you are in one of these 'between a rock and a hard place' situations that we all dread.

With guinea pig boars it very much depends on where a stone is located. If it is the bladder, then it is a pretty straight forward operation with a very good chance of recovery. I have had a number of my sows going through this successfully (in a couple of cases even repeatedly) over the years.
If the stone is situated in the kidneys, in the ureters (between kidneys and bladder) or in the urethra (between bladder and anus), then the prognosis is less optimistic. Boars have unfortunately got a longer urethra with an awkward inglenook where a passed stone can fetch up and get stuck.
Any stone that is blocking or partially blocking the ureters or urethra can cause urine to back up into the kidneys, which will damage them and can lead to kidney failure in the days after an operation (but not caused by it). In these cases, the operation success depends very much on where a stone is located and what is exactly going on - which cannot necessarily be predicted before the operation itself. It usually takes x-rays from two different angles to locate stones inside the body.

If you feel that you want to give your boy a chance, then I would opt for an operation. If you ask your vet for their honest opinion and assessment re. likely success rate, they will usually give it; you new vet sounds competent. There is no right or wrong in these situations as long as your piggy's welfare comes first - whether that is giving them a chance to live long and well or whether it is to spare them any unnecessary suffering and stress. Both are very much viable considerations, and neither is an easier choice or a cop-out. I have gone down either route with piggies of mine in comparable situations and can vouch for that!

However, what I have found important for myself for the long term is that my decision is one that I can live with in the long term and that it feels right in my gut. You will inevitably go through all the self-doubt and feelings of guilt whether that is an operation or euthanasia; they are unfortunately part and parcel of what makes us loving and caring owners - and you are very much one doing your very best!
Please do not feel like you are failing your boy by having to feel your way; it is always easier from hindsight with all the relevant information spread nicely out. Real life is very much like picking your way blindfolded through a maze without a helpful guide. All you can do is your best for your beloved pet at any given point - and you are doing that!

Please be aware that your grieving process starts the moment you are facing the fact that your guinea pig may not survive; it is much worse when with the added stress of you having to make any life-or-death decisions and not having them taken out of your hands by circumstances.

Listen to your heart - it will tell you which way is the right one for you and for your poorly boy!

HUGS
 
I could tell you about a recent bladder stone problem in my sow but it’s not really applicable to your situation with their bits being different. £1000 for an op and already having forked out £300 for a consultation and meds’ sounds rather excessive. My sow had a GA but the vet was able to manipulate the stone out without cutting into her as it was stuck in her urethra. That, plus two xrays, medication before, during and after her op, critical care and consultation came to less than £200 by a very savvy guinea pig vet in Matlock. We did start with xrays to see what the problem was then took it from there, which would seem to be the best way forward for you in my opinion. Whatever you decide, as long as you have your piggies well-being at the forefront of your mind, it will be the right decision. Good luck.
 
Hi there, sorry to hear about your situation, I have recently been through a similar experience. My boar had surgery 3 weeks ago to remove a stone and the symptoms sound very similar. He had lost 100g in weight in the week leading up to his surgery and I feared he wouldn't make it to the surgery day let alone recover afterwards. Vet prices differ wildly and I once had a quote for a single x-ray that would have cost £600. That quote encouraged me to go to a piggy savvy vet who I found on the vet locator and I'm extremely pleased I did. I paid £76 for the exact same x-ray I could have paid £600 for. I just wanted to share this as I feel I was in your situation 3 weeks ago and did not know what would happen. I trusted my vet to complete the surgery and although he was pretty miserable for the 24 hours after the op, he is now back to his cheeky self. We had a whole week delay on the surgery because my vet was on holiday, he was in a lot of pain even on meds and he'd virtually stopped eating and I had to step in with syringe feeding. I hope my experience helps. All the best
 
Thanks everyone for commenting. He had his X-ray today and there is a clear stone in his bladder. His urethra looks clear and after weighing it up with the vet, he has been booked in for surgery on Thursday. She was concerned that he’s lost so much weight and explained the inherent risks of the operation but I think I have to give him a chance to at least try and come through.
It’s been a very emotional couple of days but now we know the way forward I feel a bit better.
I’m going to give him critical care and try and get him to eat more hay to get him in the best shape for surgery.

Hopefully I’ve attached his xrays for you to see.

Thanks again everyone for your kind words. I
Will keep you updated.

820C325B-890D-47EA-BF5F-5B604865DF4B.webp5C396782-4546-4302-873B-49AF25C70124.webp820C325B-890D-47EA-BF5F-5B604865DF4B.webp
 
Best of luck with the surgery. Perservere with the critical care. Every 2 hours if you can. Get as much in as he will take even when he's fighting the syringe as long as he's chewing the food. That will hopefully keep his weight at least stable before the operation. Good luck
 
Pumpkin&Courage said:
Thanks everyone for commenting. He had his X-ray today and there is a clear stone in his bladder. His urethra looks clear and after weighing it up with the vet, he has been booked in for surgery on Thursday. She was concerned that he’s lost so much weight and explained the inherent risks of the operation but I think I have to give him a chance to at least try and come through.
It’s been a very emotional couple of days but now we know the way forward I feel a bit better.
I’m going to give him critical care and try and get him to eat more hay to get him in the best shape for surgery.

Hopefully I’ve attached his xrays for you to see.

Thanks again everyone for your kind words. I
Will keep you updated.

View attachment 120220View attachment 120221View attachment 120220
Click to expand...

Please continue with the critical care until your boy is safely out of the woods! As long as the stone is located in the bladder, the prospect of a full recovery is good. The pain from a bladder stone can be excruciating!

My Ceri went from over 700g down to 540g over the course of a weekend before her emergency operation on the Monday (which was rather make or break because she was literally just skin and bones at that point despite syringe feeding support). However, she made an amazing recovery as soon as her massive stone was out and she was back to 750g within two weeks of her operation. :tu:
Which incidentally all happened while I was away in Amsterdam for my 50th birthday... I am eternally grateful to @furryfriends (TEAS) for agreeing to look after her at the last minute and for being literally a life saver.
I hope that that will give you a bit more confidence?

All the best!
 
Hi everyone, Courage had his surgery today and it went well by all respects, the vet has been amazing with him, I wish I’d taken him straight there instead of the other place.

The stone was sharp and has inflamed his bladder wall. He’s back on baytril alongside his metacam. We have a new one too, ranitidine, which I haven’t heard of.

They kept him in for observation and I’ve only just got him home. He isn’t really eating and he only had a little bit at the vets. I’m going to give him critical care once I give him his next dose of meds in an hour. I’m going to settle him in the cage and see how he does.

Poor baby, but he is a fighter and fingers crossed he will bounce back. His recovery cage is comfortable, blankets and lots of hay and water. I might try and tempt him with a tiny bit of apple to see if that will kickstart his eating. Let me know if anyone has any post op tips.

I will keep you all updated as we are back at the vets on Saturday for a post op check.

Thank you to everyone for the advice so far.
 
Panda Pig had two surgeries for bladder stones, unfortunately they do seem to recur if your piggy is prone to them. I did change his diet once we'd discovered the first stone, to cut down on calcium but that didn't work I'm afraid.
But, he did take a while to get over the surgeries, I think it was the anaesthetic that made him a bit slow & dopey. Critical care & painkillers will help. I must say I was in shock at that quote for surgery! I think Panda's was under £350 and his stone was also right in the bladder.
Panda was not a young pig when his first stone appeared, but he went on to live for another 18 months, albeit with another surgery for the same thing about a year after the first. When it came back for a third time there was a lot of bleeding and the vet thought the stone was stuck to the bladder wall, possibly to scar tissue from previous surgeries, so we decided then to call it a day with him.
I hope Courage is soon feeling lots better, and eating like a piggy should :)
 
Check up went well today, they’ve upped his
Metacam to 0.3 twice a day now.
He has a little bulge on his skin where his stitches are but the vets are happy that his muscles are smooth and think this is where the knot of the stitches is.
His appetite is back and he’s moving around well. Temperature is normal and no trouble passing urine.
All in all, everything is looking good so far.
He has another check up on Thursday evening which will be one week from his surgery.
The post op check ups have also been free which is great, especially as the other place would have charged. Highly recommend this vet for anyone down in the south Devon/Cornwall area.
 
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