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Potential Dental problems brewing - Sampson

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lauraboara

lauraboara

Adult Guinea Pig
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Quite anxious about my boar Sampson (in my avatar). He is possibly nearly 4 (rescue so not totally sure).
I have been worried about very gradual weight loss for a while but to be honest there were no other symptoms. Also he was a v big pig when I adopted him (approx 1450g) and is probably more active then his previous lives. Since March, he has gradually dropped to nearer 1300g - so it has been slow but continuing.

But recently have noticed some other things eg leaving the larger excel nuggets uneaten, messy drinking from the water bottle, slower eating - he is always first to be asking for food! He is OK, eating OK by himself. I have given him a few oats and extra small nuggets and that seems to have helped stabilise his weight over the last couple of weeks. He has good quality farm hay and tucks into that OK.
I have struggled to get a good look at his teeth but the front bottom teeth do not seem totally straight across - slightly slanted from left to right.

Any thoughts welcome?:) Plus some get well vibes if you have some please. He is such a lovely big boar - normally.

Booked into usual exotics vet tomorrow to see if my theory is right but will not do anything further until I know more about how they treat and what experience they have in dental work.:(
 
Well worth a check up at the vets, hope all goes well. Always trust your piggie intuition, you know when somethigns not quite right. Lots of get well vibes to him, let us know how he gets on.
 
Thank you - I feel the symptoms are a bit vague but would prefer to catch any problems early.
Anyone got any tips for helping me have a better look at his teeth before I see the vet tomorrow?
 
http://www.teasnorthampton.co.uk

Contact details for Debbie at the Sanctuary can be found on the above site. Should your vet decide there is something wrong with Sampson's teeth, I would ask you not to just let the vet treat them. I know from personal experience that although exotic vets may have knowledge of pigs, it is not often that they have knowledge about dentistry. Thankfully, I found an expert in this field - a vet who works closely with the Sanctuary and has worked wonders on teeth that other vets had tried to treat and failed.
 
Hi GPL

Firstly - Well done on your observation - you appear to have picked up early warning signs of possible dental issues - most probably the molars are overgrowing and starting to trap the tongue in view of the issues with messy water drinking and selective eating of dried food....and the weight loss could be associated with that. Yes - it can be really slow and subtle in its presentation when you have an older piggie,

Also I'm pleased to see you are being cautious in your approach in order to ensure Sampson gets the best treatment.

To hopefully answer your questions/give more info:

1) Before you see the vets tomorrow - there is not much you can do to see his teeth yourself. Don't worry too much about the incisors. The best thing you can do is to start topping up his food intake to keep his guts moving by syringe feeding mushed pellets (actually given what you describe I'd hope Sampson would be happy to eat softened nuggets in his bowl or slush off a spoon rather than resort to "the dreaded syringe" !)

2) How can you prepare for tomorrow?
When vets try to look at a piggie's teeth - they usually stick the "otoscope thingy" in the mouth (the shiny metal cone-shaped thing with a light that is also used for ears) only to discover (surprise surprise) that they can;t see the back molars because the piggie has food in it's mouth. Piggies are herbivores, their mouths are completely different to ours and cats/dogs etc. They have a massive cavity (called the diastema) between the front teeth (incisors) and the back teeth (premolars and molars) in which food accumulates and hence, unless a vet is willing to wash the food out of this area first and has the proper equipment - they don;t have a hope in hell of seeing the back teeth properly. Very few vets are able to do a proper conscious dental exam because they do not know how (and if they're like my own vets, seem unwilling to learn).

Let's be clear - a dental [*]exam[/*] is different from then going on to do dental [*]treatment[/*] to rectify a problem found- but because of the above, most vets need to perform a GA to perform the exam first and then go on to treat at the same time if needs be.


So if your vet only uses the otoscope thingy , you can improve their chances of seeing the molars by helping to clear the food in the diastema as follows:
At least 90mins before the vets visit, withdraw all food (including hay) and feed instead cucumber WITHOUT the skin. This will help clear the piggies mouth of fibrous food so the molars can be seen


I have done this with some success in the past - however I do now prefer to get a full exam done by one of the few vets i know who does this successfully without resorting to GA no matter how much food is in the mouth i.e. Simon Maddock at Cat and Rabbit Clinic Northampton (see Minty and Gary's post - and I also support what they say about not letting treatment take place unless you are sure as often it causes more harm than good)

3) What happens after the initial exam?

Your next step will be entirely dependent upon what your vet says, how confident you feel with them and the examination they conducted ..and their ability to anaesthetise/treat dental problems.....and whether you can make a long journey if you feel unhappy with or lack confidence in their advice/findings.

Just to give you a reference point: Depending upon Simon;s findings he will then treat there and then (without GA) or we will then discuss the next stage if a GA is necessary. It is a 4-5hr round trip for me - but building on my many years experience of different vets etc I think it;s worth it. If you book in and say its guinea pig with a possible dental issue - you get a half hour appointment booked for you and it's half the price of a standard consult with my normal vets (who would tell me they can;t see anything and it will then cost me upwards of £150 for a GA to deterimine/treat a possible dental issue)

As said before - lots of vets mistakenly assume a piggie's incisors are too long/not shaped properly and trim them unnecessarily, causing problems (even death). Piggies incisors are NOT the same as rabbits and should not be compared with them as a basis/justification for deciding treatment. We have also had cases of vets missing molar spurs - again causing a lot of problems, pain and heartache for both guinea pigs and owers. I strongly advise you, (if you can and are able), to seek a second opinion before agreeing to dental treatment unless you feel totally confident in your vets.

Good luck tomorrow - hope the info above helps you in deciding what to do/whether to put your trust in your vets as I can completely sympathise - I've spent years of heartache (and expense) getting to where I am now in terms of when I use my usual exotics-specialist vets (and what for) and when I go see another vet (Simon) because of their expertise in a particular issue - i.e. dental!

x
 
Wow Pebble, that is a fantastic reply - thank you for your time in answering so completely. I really apreciate the advice and it will help me prepare for tomorrow.
I will try the cucumber cleanse before the vet visit.

I am aware of Simon from the forum and also via Paula (Salt N Peppers Mum) from BARC and so I will certainly consider that option.

I will let you know how Sampson gets on tomorrow - the bonus is that he is a very well behaved boy at the vets- usually.
Once again, so much for sharing your thoughts and tips - I am the kind of person who needs lots of information to make decisions so that was really helpful.:)
 
OK - onto cucumber only regime in preparation for vets as per Pebble. Fingers crossed that the vet at least gets to look at the molars.
Will update later on - wish Sampson luck
 
Hope everything goes ok at the vets.
I too can only agree with Pebble and Minty&Gary - Simon is fantastic & really does work wonders where others have failed xx
 
Sadly vet trip was utter s***ing waste of time. When I got there, exotics specialist was operating (understandable) so receptionists had assumed I would be happy to be seen by small animal vet. I said I would prefer to wait for the exotics vet but after nearly an hour I had to go to collect kids and the piggies were hot and past it anyway:( So teeth were never seen in the end despite cucumber preparation etc.

Just regrouping and will try a new plan. Thanks for good wishes.
 
Pebble said:
Hi GPL

Firstly - Well done on your observation - you appear to have picked up early warning signs of possible dental issues - most probably the molars are overgrowing and starting to trap the tongue in view of the issues with messy water drinking and selective eating of dried food....and the weight loss could be associated with that. Yes - it can be really slow and subtle in its presentation when you have an older piggie,

Also I'm pleased to see you are being cautious in your approach in order to ensure Sampson gets the best treatment.

To hopefully answer your questions/give more info:

1) Before you see the vets tomorrow - there is not much you can do to see his teeth yourself. Don't worry too much about the incisors. The best thing you can do is to start topping up his food intake to keep his guts moving by syringe feeding mushed pellets (actually given what you describe I'd hope Sampson would be happy to eat softened nuggets in his bowl or slush off a spoon rather than resort to "the dreaded syringe" !)

2) How can you prepare for tomorrow?
When vets try to look at a piggie's teeth - they usually stick the "otoscope thingy" in the mouth (the shiny metal cone-shaped thing with a light that is also used for ears) only to discover (surprise surprise) that they can;t see the back molars because the piggie has food in it's mouth. Piggies are herbivores, their mouths are completely different to ours and cats/dogs etc. They have a massive cavity (called the diastema) between the front teeth (incisors) and the back teeth (premolars and molars) in which food accumulates and hence, unless a vet is willing to wash the food out of this area first and has the proper equipment - they don;t have a hope in hell of seeing the back teeth properly. Very few vets are able to do a proper conscious dental exam because they do not know how (and if they're like my own vets, seem unwilling to learn).

Let's be clear - a dental [*]exam[/*] is different from then going on to do dental [*]treatment[/*] to rectify a problem found- but because of the above, most vets need to perform a GA to perform the exam first and then go on to treat at the same time if needs be.


So if your vet only uses the otoscope thingy , you can improve their chances of seeing the molars by helping to clear the food in the diastema as follows:
At least 90mins before the vets visit, withdraw all food (including hay) and feed instead cucumber WITHOUT the skin. This will help clear the piggies mouth of fibrous food so the molars can be seen


I have done this with some success in the past - however I do now prefer to get a full exam done by one of the few vets i know who does this successfully without resorting to GA no matter how much food is in the mouth i.e. Simon Maddock at Cat and Rabbit Clinic Northampton (see Minty and Gary's post - and I also support what they say about not letting treatment take place unless you are sure as often it causes more harm than good)

3) What happens after the initial exam?

Your next step will be entirely dependent upon what your vet says, how confident you feel with them and the examination they conducted ..and their ability to anaesthetise/treat dental problems.....and whether you can make a long journey if you feel unhappy with or lack confidence in their advice/findings.

Just to give you a reference point: Depending upon Simon;s findings he will then treat there and then (without GA) or we will then discuss the next stage if a GA is necessary. It is a 4-5hr round trip for me - but building on my many years experience of different vets etc I think it;s worth it. If you book in and say its guinea pig with a possible dental issue - you get a half hour appointment booked for you and it's half the price of a standard consult with my normal vets (who would tell me they can;t see anything and it will then cost me upwards of £150 for a GA to deterimine/treat a possible dental issue)

As said before - lots of vets mistakenly assume a piggie's incisors are too long/not shaped properly and trim them unnecessarily, causing problems (even death). Piggies incisors are NOT the same as rabbits and should not be compared with them as a basis/justification for deciding treatment. We have also had cases of vets missing molar spurs - again causing a lot of problems, pain and heartache for both guinea pigs and owers. I strongly advise you, (if you can and are able), to seek a second opinion before agreeing to dental treatment unless you feel totally confident in your vets.

Good luck tomorrow - hope the info above helps you in deciding what to do/whether to put your trust in your vets as I can completely sympathise - I've spent years of heartache (and expense) getting to where I am now in terms of when I use my usual exotics-specialist vets (and what for) and when I go see another vet (Simon) because of their expertise in a particular issue - i.e. dental!

x
Click to expand...

That is a wonderful, informative post - it really should be stickied!
 
gplearner said:
Sadly vet trip was utter s***ing waste of time. When I got there, exotics specialist was operating (understandable) so receptionists had assumed I would be happy to be seen by small animal vet. I said I would prefer to wait for the exotics vet but after nearly an hour I had to go to collect kids and the piggies were hot and past it anyway:( So teeth were never seen in the end despite cucumber preparation etc.

Just regrouping and will try a new plan. Thanks for good wishes.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry it didn't work out this time.

Hopefully you will be able to get in and let him be seen properly soon.

All the best for little Sampson x
 
update

Did manage to see exotics vet today and the examination was very careful. The vet did thoroughly rinse out Sampsons mouth and took a long time with otoscope from all angles. The cucumber had helped but there was still a lot of gunk in his mouth before the rinsing. He even let me look down the scope too! I could see teeth, anyway...

The dental theory appears to be correct - molar spur visible on each side that vet said would be catching his tongue. 2nd molar in (I think). Sampson is now at 1250g but he is long and 'big boned' so that does represent underweight for him.

I was very pleased to have read Pebble's notes before going in so everything that happened, I was prepared for. Sampson was just amazingly good - the vet did not even have to hold him much for check breathing, heartbeat etc.

So am glad I know what we are dealing with. Now I have to consider the treatment. This vet is v experienced exotics vet (20yrs) and on the TGPF list. He favours dental work under GA - we had a long discussion about the pros and cons which was good. Scary but good. I am now thinking through the options.:{
 
Typically, initial treatments for dental issues need to be quite close together - weekly or so - while the teeth find the natural balance again after treatment and while the pig starts hopefully to eat again.

I had a pig who went through three GAs for dental treatments and this really took its toll on him. Although I was dealing with an exotics vet at this time, they decided they could do no more and told me I should think about putting my pig to sleep. But then I went to The Cat and Rabbit Care Clinic. The other vets not only didn't have a clue what they were doing, but they had also missed the fact that my boy was suffering from arthritis! That vet is considered to be the best exotics specialist in the town!

My pig was prescribed pain relief for his arthritis and had weekly dentals without GA to deal with his teeth issues. I can't praise the team there highly enough for their expertise and caring attitude towards both animals and owners and for extending my boy's life far beyond our expectations.
 
Aww get well soon Samson <3

I know how terrible is to know something's up with a beloved pet. One of my boars is on a course of antibiotics at the moment after his son bit him and the wound got infected.

It was so bad he had to have an operation to clean it out and stitch it up!
 
It's very unusual for a dental problem to be completely sorted with just one treatment, and that is where finding a vet who can do the work with the piggie conscious really makes a difference. After having teeth filed under GA it can take a while for the guinea pig to start eating again, which means the teeth start to overgrow again in no time at all. Recovery time is much quicker when the teeth have been filed with them conscious, and it does mean that they can be done frequently, especially in the early stages.
 
I am totally taking on board the advice about Simon's knowledge and indeed have spoken to him today on the phone. Simon was really helpful and also gave me some pros and cons of concious dentals and GAs. As per Simon, an issue with Sampson's case is that he is not YET really bad ie it is not as obvious that he will need several dentals compared to some.

And although only a practical point, it is quite daunting though to consider taking Sampson to Northampton from North Yorkshire. So still thinking through all the options and researching but thanks for all the advice so far. Wow these piggies do put us through it don't they?
 
Hi there, just been directed to your post from the piggy bank. I'm visiting family in York this week and heading back down to Cheltenham probably Sunday. If you wanted Sampson treated by Simon and looked after by Debbie for a bit while his teeth get sorted then id be more thanhappy to transport him down the m1 to meet someone who could train him to northampton x
 
PiggiePal said:
Hi there, just been directed to your post from the piggy bank. I'm visiting family in York this week and heading back down to Cheltenham probably Sunday. If you wanted Sampson treated by Simon and looked after by Debbie for a bit while his teeth get sorted then id be more thanhappy to transport him down the m1 to meet someone who could train him to northampton x
Click to expand...

Wow Piggiepal that is very generous. I will go 'off thread' and PM you about the possibility. Thanks soo much for your support.
 
So sorry - was being tortured at the inlaws and no access to computer...

I believe all sorts has been happening to organise via various Piggy bank people - thank you all for being so brilliant.

I will try and get in touch, PiggyPal.
 
Journey

Well the boys have started their journey towards the dental Sanctuary this morning thanks to PiggiePal:). Thank you to everyone who has offered help - it is amazing how guinea pig people can rally around to sort out a plan.
Thank you very much to Debbie for accepting them into the Sanctuary - everything crossed that Simon can help Sampson. Good luck boys x
 
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