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Probiotic - Why?

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Stinklepig

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Trying to drag this out of an existing thread as Miss Magpie is right, that thread's not really the place for such debate!

alcesterpigs said:
Spig
I take your point, money no object when it comes to treating gp.
However, I still want to know the facts. I must have treated well into the hundreds of pigs with Baytril. I am now thnking back to see if I did NOT give them the best treatment.
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I very much doubt anyone knows everything about medication, bedding, diet etc. I know I've not given the best care in the past, because I simply didn't know. And no doubt I'll continue making mistakes, as I'm no vet or even biologist. But there are things that can be picked up by anyone, and hopefully make it into common use. Your crusade against anaesthetic for x rays for example. I happen to agree totally, but it's not something that has entered into recognised safe and suitable practice. I would say probiotic use is considerably more mainstream, but even now I hear of the odd vet that either doesn't advise probiotics, or more strangely, advises a course of probiotics *after* the course of antiobitcs has finished!

I'd also say if you give the barely effective low doses many vets prescribe, you probably saw as little damaging side effect from the Baytril on the digestive system as you saw positive for the condition being treated.

That is why I want the facts from those better qualified than me, or maybe most of the posters on the forum. I am, I suppose, looking for the results from a controlled, double-blind study into the effectiveness of pro-biotics.
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I would say there's a weight of annecdotal evidence on the matter that cannot be ignored just on this forum, and if you look at other forums devoted to small herbivorous mammals the majority of annectdotal evidence is very similar. That's all hearsay of course, and not at all sterile room controlled conditions, but can't be discounted.

As for scientific studies, you're going to struggle to find many devoted to the digestive tract of guinea pigs in this regard I suspect as human science is going to be concerned with the omnivorious human digestive system. The closest I've found has been when reading up on antibiotic uptake where guinea pigs have been "used as a model" (I don't think anyone here really wants to understand that phrase too explicitly!). The longevity and intestinal health of these animals isn't often the primary concern :( However, if you are happy to correlate human studies then http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/bmj.39231.599815.55v1 might be of use. Like I said though, we're comparing digestive systems that are rather disimilar by doing this so it's hard to make any hard and fast declarations.

An easier question for you and everybody else; why do some words have * * around them? There doesn't seem to be any logic in when/why they appear!!
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I use it for emphasis, as ccc4 said. Bold works, but * * is quicker when typing than either typing out or mousing around with tags (and as I try to get my posts out while things are fresh in my mind, *and* I'm worn out from a week of syringe feeding my oldest and not likely to get much older degu, time is of the essence :( ), and is kind of accepted. If you use Thunderbird for email you'll find text inside * * will display in bold, helps avoid nasty html emails :)



Mods - I know this post isn't abundant with probiotic information, I'm just wanting to get things rolling here to take the heat of the thread that inspired it. I'll try and either copy some of my previous posts on the subject in later, or cobble something new up. Also anyone else with information adding it here would be incredibly handy :)
 
Ok then - to add my bit! I didn't know about pro-biotics before joining the forum, and previously if the vet hadn't have suggested it I wouldn't have known to give it.

I use pro-biotics in two situations now, firstly when a pig is on antibiotics (usually baytril as that's all my vets will give!), as I have found Baytril can upset their tummy and appetite. In addition to the pro-biotics restoring the 'good' bacteria, I also find it's useful as it's given in water to make sure the piggy is getting enough fluids if they've got loose poops / upset tummies.

I also give it when a piggy has been stressed eg. long journeys, moves etc - again, it helps to know they're getting extra fluids and I add pro-biotic just in case!

Whether it works or not I'm not sure we'll find concrete evidence for, but if it's doing no harm then why not? I'm sure people have similar views on things like homeopathy, aromatherapy and indeed taking pro-biotics themselves - I do take probiotics if I'm on antibiotics! Some people do, some don't.

I'm all for trying things as long as they're not harmful to the pigs.

Sophie
x
 
SP
I have always given therapeutic doses of antibiotics, none of this 0.2ml every other week nonsense!!
Disclaimer:
The last part of that sentence was, over the top, for effect and in no way reflects clinical practice. No human being were hurt during the composition of this post.
(Someone is still bound to take offence!)
 
I actually have mixed feelings on probiotics these days, despite previously being all for them. My 3 piggies have a very resistant bacterial UTI that they all carry, and I have found that if they are given probiotics (of any brand) it resurfaces with a vengeance within 24 hours. I have no explanation for this, but it is consistent every time and for each of the three pigs.

They were on probiotics the whole time I and the vet were trying out various antibiotics with them, and they improved a lot when I stopped the probiotics. I also even wonder if the probiotics somehow interfered with the antibiotics. :{

However, I have also previously experienced a piggy getting extremely ill from Baytril, which was resolved by probiotics.

For these reasons, I will only use probiotics when actually necessary in antibiotic treatment (eg. when there is soft poo) from now on.
 
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P. How interesting. There must be something on the web about probiotics/pigs/antibiotics.
I have never used pb, others use them every time and you have experience both ways. Take your pick. The discussion (not debate) continues.
 
I did try doing a bit of research at the time, but came up with nothing really. :{ I'm thoroughly confused and really don't claim to understand what is going on, but one thing I'm sure about is that it happens with all three of them *every* time.
 
I too use probiotic when a pig has antibiotics & have found it did help my impacted boys. I do give a bottle of probiotic approx every month alongside a bottle of fresh water & i usually find the older ones will readily polish off the probiotic where the younger ones hardly touch it, i don't know if it's because the older ones prefer the taste or wether they "need" it more :)
 
I have only ever used a product called Vetark Pro-C Probiotic which you can get in pet shops and I'm amazed by it's success - a few weeks ago I even posted a thread about it. I recently had a pig on Baytril and after each dose, syringed 1ml of the probiotic into her mouth. Not only did it ensure that the antibiotics were swallowed, it also really seemed to help her. Baytril is a nasty antibiotic that often causes gastrointestinal disturbances (as do most antibiotics) and while using the probiotic consistently, I saw no adverse side effects. I also use it with Wilbur, my impacted boar, to much improvement - I wouldn't be without it now.
As far as evidence goes, I'm a nurse myself and have seen the damage antibiotics can do. A lot of people underestimate their side effects. The stronger antibiotics kill off all bacteria altogether, and as we all know from the Activia adverts, we need 'good bugs' in our stomach. I always use Activia or Actimel, or something similar, when I'm taking antibiotics myself. I think the worst side effects has to be the nausea and upset tummies when you're on antibiotics - I'm sure everyone will agree! Since guinea pigs can't talk, we have no way of understanding how the medicine is making them feel, so we just have to make an informed guess. Based solely on the fact that I feel rotten when I'm on antibiotics, as well as the fact that I've seen guineas have anorexia, weight loss, bloating, etc, when they're on antiobitcs themselves, I think it's only right that we at least offer a probiotic. At the end of the day, we all do what's best for our pets and I wouldn't want any of mine to suffer. In my own, personal, experience, probiotics combat nasty side effects of antibiotics in guinea pigs, so I will continue to give them.
 
alcesterpigs said:
Disclaimer:
The last part of that sentence was, over the top, for effect and in no way reflects clinical practice. No human being were hurt during the composition of this post.
(Someone is still bound to take offence!)
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:(|):(|) sorry but this tickled me
 
pelicano said:
I actually have mixed feelings on probiotics these days, despite previously being all for them. My 3 piggies have a very resistant bacterial UTI that they all carry, and I have found that if they are given probiotics (of any brand) it resurfaces with a vengeance within 24 hours. I have no explanation for this, but it is consistent every time and for each of the three pigs.

They were on probiotics the whole time I and the vet were trying out various antibiotics with them, and they improved a lot when I stopped the probiotics. I also even wonder if the probiotics somehow interfered with the antibiotics. :{

However, I have also previously experienced a piggy getting extremely ill from Baytril, which was resolved by probiotics.

For these reasons, I will only use probiotics when actually necessary in antibiotic treatment (eg. when there is soft poo) from now on.
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As you piggies have a very resistant uti bacteria and the probiotics encourage bacterial growth in the stomach could this therefore adding fuel to the fire as it were in this case as the bacteria are resistant to the antibiotic administered? Do your piggies do better when just on baytril/antibiotics or as you say they carry the infection do they always have it in a mild form then when probiotics are administered it has a boost in symptom as the probiotic encourages the bad bacteria?

I do use probiotics after giving an antibiotic (usually about an hour or two after the antibiotic is administered) with small animals that need to keep the guts moving I think it is a wise course of action and have only ever seen it do benefit to the piggies concerned, also the mixing with water and hydration of the piggy if poo is loose will help.

It would be interesting to be able to aproach the subject scientifically with a anti biotic only/ antibiotic and syringed water/ antibiotic and probiotic to be able to see the merits but at no time would I want to withhold treatment which could be beneficial to the piggy. I can see Pelicanos point that with a virulant antibiotic resistant strain of bacteria it could cause more problems admisistering a probiotic but I would think this is the exception rather than the rule.

I choose to use probiotics and have always found them to help the piggy concerned in their digestion and well being.
 
Yep I use them too, only because I never thought not too. I never thought that I shouldn't use them when everyone else does! I didn't use them for Cuzzy (I was a new owner at the time) so didn't know about them and we lost him.
 
Vikki said:
As you piggies have a very resistant uti bacteria and the probiotics encourage bacterial growth in the stomach could this therefore adding fuel to the fire as it were in this case as the bacteria are resistant to the antibiotic administered? Do your piggies do better when just on baytril/antibiotics or as you say they carry the infection do they always have it in a mild form then when probiotics are administered it has a boost in symptom as the probiotic encourages the bad bacteria?
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It's a difficult one to answer, because I didn't realise early enough that probiotics were making things worse. Like most of you, I would never have dreamed it was an issue! :( I'll try to explain a bit better what happened:

Basically, my piggies went through antibiotic after antibiotic, and sometimes the infection would respond for a while, then stop responding (whilst still on the antibiotic, not after the course had finished). Throughout the entire time they were on probiotics (all different brands/types), so I will never know whether one of the antibiotics might have worked better without the probiotic, or not.

I had already exhausted all antibiotics by the time I realised about the probiotics making things worse. One of the piggies had suffered from a bad reaction to an antibiotic, so she was on 2 different probiotics a day, and her UTI was 10x worse. I had taken the other 2 piggies off the probiotics and realised they were lots better! So, as soon as the piggy with the bad reaction was able to, I took her off the probiotics too, and her UTI symptoms were a lot better too. All three piggies carry the same bug, and all have a consistent reaction with probiotics.

All I want to do is make people aware. If I had been contributing to this thread 2 years ago, I'd have been saying 'probiotics are a must' when it comes to antibiotics. You live and you learn, and hopefully one of these days I'll actually learn why they are a problem! I guess it just worries me when I hear about piggies who are not responding to antibiotics well being advised to also take probiotics. My case can't be unique, even if it is unusual. :{
 
Sarah, I wonder if there is something in the probiotic that the bug had made your piggies sensitive to? Maybe there's too much good bacteria for your pigs - perhaps the bug has led to an "overgrowth" of good bacteria and giving more good bacteria (probiotic) is irritating the bladder/urethra...? It's a strange case, not heard of anything like it before, but then I guess as with each and every medication - some pigs will be fine with it, others will be intolerant (in one form or another).

In any case, the absolute best probiotic is poop from a healthy piggie! Especially useful when a poorly pig is not coprophagising (is that a word!?) themselves.
 
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I'll probably never know what it is. I just wish I'd realised sooner and tried the antibiotics without probiotics (it's too late now - would do more harm than good - they are better off without antibiotics or probiotics now, that I'm sure of).

If it was just one piggy, I'd say it was unique to that pig and therefore something to do with her, but since it's all three, I know it's to do with the bacteria.

I wish I still had my decent vet, as I'd ask him to look into the issue of probiotics for me, just for my own interest (and obviously to share). I'm still struggling to find a good 'un since he left the practice. :(
 
CCC4 said:
In any case, the absolute best probiotic is poop from a healthy piggie! Especially useful when a poorly pig is not coprophagising (is that a word!?) themselves.
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Absolutely - at least we know that is of the right gut ecology etc.
 
I always used probiotic when my piggies were prescribed baytril as it seemed to upset their gut so much. However, I haven't given probiotic when using septrin or zithromax as they seem to tolerate it so well and therefore I haven't really seen a need for it. I've always found that those two antibiotics have worked so much better, especially zithromax, and I guess maybe that could be due to the fact that I haven't used a probiotic. I've just presumed it is because they are a better antibiotic though.
 
In the interest of keeping an open mind on the matter I am willing to try a p-b on the next pig that needs Baytril, so what is a recommended p-b?
 
Oh gosh can see what you're all on about.....being in OZ arghhh we do NOT get the best advice here... :x
I was lucky and got sent some fab probiotics from UK which did help as previous times when Duke was on Baytril he'd be off food and really not well so off colour for so long after his abscesses..........BUT after the probiotics it really seemed to help.
I so wish they'd come up with a more specific stuff/remedies (sorry laymans terms there) for our little ones.....heck there's enough of them around why don't they do it? :{
Pity we can't all band together or help in some way......our little exotics (as they like to call them) do need help and our vets/rodentologists etc... well they need to be heard :)
 
I always used to give PB with anti bios because I thought that was "what you did".

In 2007 Rocky was on Baytril without PB and became very poorly with diarrhoea. PB did seem to help on that occasion.

However, during the more recent illness I found that Rocky's diarrhoea was worse when we were using PB alongside Baytril. I have now been off the PB for a week or so, and there is a lot less diarrhoea.

I suspect it has a lot to do with which micro-organism is causing the problem. Unless stool samples are sent to the lab you just don't know.
 
Lucinda said:
I always used to give PB with anti bios because I thought that was "what you did".

In 2007 Rocky was on Baytril without PB and became very poorly with diarrhoea. PB did seem to help on that occasion.

However, during the more recent illness I found that Rocky's diarrhoea was worse when we were using PB alongside Baytril. I have now been off the PB for a week or so, and there is a lot less diarrhoea.

I suspect it has a lot to do with which micro-organism is causing the problem. Unless stool samples are sent to the lab you just don't know.
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That's really interesting.

Trouble is, even if you do know which micro-organism it is, we still don't know which ones are the problematic ones with the probiotics (or why). The main one my piggies have is a staphylococcus, although 3 other bacteria showed up in the lab test too.
 
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