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Questions about UTI's....

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susie_q

susie_q

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My Emily is bleeding from her rear today. :( I rushed up to the vets and he had a good feel around her bladder, which while very tender, he couldn't feel any stones.

He's diagnoised a uti because apparently the blood isn't "Pure" (I can't tell the difference) and seems to be coming from her urethra. She's on metacam (0.5ml daily) and baytril (0.5ml daily). he also gave her jabs of both, larger doeses but not sure how much.

Since coming home she hasn't eaten, or drank (to my knowledge) just settled down and slept. Now having experienced UTI's myself I can understand why she isn't hungry or drinking. Last I saw her eating was a nibble of hay about lunch time today, and she tucked into her breakfast with the usual gusto. She's not the type of pig to refuse food so her lack of intrest naturally has me very worried.

I've got some cranberry juice (the unsweetened type for people) and I am going to try syringing her some of that (diluted) later.(Wondering any suggested ratios?) I was wondering if at any point I should try getting some critical care down her, or leave her be until the morning and see how she reacts for breakfast before really worrying.

Other questions - the blood in the urine, is it often very dramatic looking? My first instinct was "oh no, she's bleeding in her uterus/having a miscarriage" (i don't think she's pregant but have been worrying in case her husband wasn't properly neutered, which i don't think he has but miracles do happen) and secondly - can they be passing blood without squeaking when they wee? Because up until the blood passing, Emily hasn't shown a single sign of UTI. she's not squealed once while weeing/lifting her bottom up.

She also has very sloppy poos (which brought my attention to her rear in the first place) is this common?

Also, any advice in general is greatly appreciated.
 
Sorry to hear she's not well. I think some antibiotics are better for UTI's than others - hopefully someone else can advise.

The sloppy pooh's could be just because she's not eating normally -have you got a pro-biotic to give her in between the anti-biotics? BioLapis or AviPro are good ones - your vet would probably have BioLapis.

If she's not eating then I would tempt her with something (grass? or whatever she likes best) to keep her guts moving, and perhaps syringe her some water too to keep her hydrated.

I don't know about dilution of cranberry juice - if in doubt I would over-dilute!

Hope she perks up soon

Sophie
x
 
Septrin is the antibiotic truly suited to combat UTIs. Baytril might work, but it would take longer and may not be quite as effective. The pain relief/anti-inflammatory is also important.

Ditto to Sophie on the probiotic. Baytril has a tendency to knock appetite and gut function with some piggies. Be sure to have Critical Care/Science Recovery to hand just in case you do need to get onto syringe-feeding. If the reaction and refusal to eat is so bad that she doesn't eat anything at all, request an antibiotic change from the vet. Some pigs are completely intolerant of Baytril and it is not worth it to keep her on that drug when her body doesn't like it and she won't eat, especially when there are better alternatives. Septrin is tolerated much better, much gentler on the tummy.
 
susie_q said:
My Emily is bleeding from her rear today. :( I rushed up to the vets and he had a good feel around her bladder, which while very tender, he couldn't feel any stones.

He's diagnoised a uti because apparently the blood isn't "Pure" (I can't tell the difference) and seems to be coming from her urethra. She's on metacam (0.5ml daily) and baytril (0.5ml daily). he also gave her jabs of both, larger doeses but not sure how much.
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I know girls can have very serious bleeding from around that area (can't remember the exact term and treatment, sorry), so hopefully the vet is good enough to have known and discounted that in his diagnosis.

0.5ml sounds like a hell of a lot of Metacam though! The guideline is 0.1ml per kilo of body weight (there is a difference in strength between dog and cat Metacam, and without digging my bottle out I think the 0.1 is for the cat strength) per 24 hours. Unless you have a 5kg piggie it's far too much in my opinion. You might be able to push up to 0.2ml per kilo in an emergency, but I'd never consider 0.5 a safe dose.

Since coming home she hasn't eaten, or drank (to my knowledge) just settled down and slept. Now having experienced UTI's myself I can understand why she isn't hungry or drinking. Last I saw her eating was a nibble of hay about lunch time today, and she tucked into her breakfast with the usual gusto. She's not the type of pig to refuse food so her lack of intrest naturally has me very worried.
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Metacam can be quite nasty to the stomach, and appetite. I've never seen an appetite problem with it myself, but then, I've never given such a huge dose! Also antibiotics can reduce appetite and activity to an extent.

Still, as she's been (is she still?) bleeding, there's something amiss so that will also bring her down. You might want to weigh her this evening, then in the morning to make sure she's not losing too much weight from not eating/ drinking.

I've got some cranberry juice (the unsweetened type for people) and I am going to try syringing her some of that (diluted) later.(Wondering any suggested ratios?) I was wondering if at any point I should try getting some critical care down her, or leave her be until the morning and see how she reacts for breakfast before really worrying.
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Cranberry is very good, I've never really worked out ratios, just diluted it down to the point they'll take it without spitting it out and go as much as they'll take in them.

I'd be very reluctant to leave syringe feeding till tomorrow if she's not been seen eating anything for herself by now. It doesn't take all that long for the digestive system to start having problems if there's too long between food, and also the liver starts to suffer damage eventually (though I hear different opinions on how long that takes, but I go by a piggie never going more than 12 hours without food, whatever the cause of not eating).

Other questions - the blood in the urine, is it often very dramatic looking? My first instinct was "oh no, she's bleeding in her uterus/having a miscarriage" (i don't think she's pregant but have been worrying in case her husband wasn't properly neutered, which i don't think he has but miracles do happen) and secondly - can they be passing blood without squeaking when they wee? Because up until the blood passing, Emily hasn't shown a single sign of UTI. she's not squealed once while weeing/lifting her bottom up.
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I'm sure it's possibl, although I've never come across it in the UTI piggies I've had. And I'm more used to seeing small streaks of blood than a definite bleeding direct from the piggie. As I said, I really hope the vet checked her temp, had a good look/ feel etc to discount bleeding from the uterus as the cause.

She also has very sloppy poos (which brought my attention to her rear in the first place) is this common?
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Could be if she's not eating properly/ her usual diet as a result of this. UTIs can knock the appetite quite hard, which knocks the poo as well. I take it you've got probiotics? Very useful for helping with the poo, and vital (in my opinion) when on antibiotics. Again, 0.5ml daily of Baytril could be thought of as low (when given in 2 halves, ie 0.25ml twice a day) or high when given in one go. It will have an impact on the digestion, and from experience and advise of vets I belive Septrin to be far more effective for UTIs. It also has the plus of being far kinder to the guts than Baytril.

It isn't impossible that she's had a bit of a digestive upset (for whatever reason), and with the way a pig is plumbed, something nasty has come out of one place and maybe crept up into another causing the UTI. All you need is the wrong bacteria in the wrong place at the wrong time!

I'll just reiterate, whatever the cause, given her poo isn't very healthy, make sure she has probiotic! The last thing that's needed is to get on top of an infection, but have the world fall out her bottom due to the medication!
 
CCC4 said:
Some pigs are completely intolerant of Baytril and it is not worth it to keep her on that drug when her body doesn't like it and she won't eat, especially when there are better alternatives. Septrin is tolerated much better, much gentler on the tummy.
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Was so busy hammering the keyboard I got mine in late!

Yes, I've got a piggie who doesn't get on well with Baytril *at all*, so important point there that not only is Septrin likely to be more effective in a UTI, but if the piggie is intolerant of Baytril it'll do more harm than good keeping them on it.

Edit - Forgot to mention, boiling up some pearl barley (as found hidden on the small "Wholefoods" shelf at Tesco at this time of night) and giving the water once cooled and strained can help with easing the discomfort of a UTI. More info about half way down this page: http://www.oginet.com/pgurney/cystitis.htm
 
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Sorry guys - I missed out an "0" in the doseage. It's 0.05 ml of the metacam. >_<

Yep, I have probiotic (with the number of resp. infections I've had in the house I am in the habit of giving it routinly with baytril) but I haven't given her any as I remember reading somewhere that it doesn't need to be given after a jag as it's not *technically* going through the gut. I'll be sure to give her a sprinkling with her cranberry juice.

The vet really had a good old feel and cleaned her up while looking at her, and had all her bits squished out and it def. looked like it was coming out her urethra rather than her vagina. He didn't take her temp though, so if we have a trip back in the morning (depending on whether or not them perks up) I'll ask him to do so, and ask him about the septrin too.

I also messed up with the Baytril dosage - it's 0.2ml a day. ¬.¬ I even have the medcine bottles sat here in front of me. I'm daft.

I'll go check on her again, and if she's not eaten by ten I shall try giving her some critical care, just to be on the safe side.

Thanks guys!
 
Sorry for seeming a bit abrupt in my questions, don't mean to be, but have rice cooking and so dashing in here, quickly posting, and dashing back to the kitchen.

0.2 baytril? Is that just once a day? Mine haven't had baytril for ages so a bit out of touch with dosage, but isn't that a bit low? Does anyone know? I would have thought that would be fine if it was twice a day.
 
0.05ml Metacam sounds a lot better! Actually probably too low a dose, but better to have inflammation and a bit of pain than a toxic overdose! Although ideally the dose would be such that neither of the above happens. It's a refreshing change to hear a precise amount rather than "a drop". I am the person who gets so bored I sit and test drop size, when I did I found a drop could be between 0.3 and 0.7ml. Too much for some, too little for others...

0.2ml once a day of Baytril is very low. Even at twice a day it's quite low. But then, what's her weight? The stat Baytril dose is 0.2ml per kilo twice a day, but that's the basic lelve, most vets will give up to twice that. I'm seeing more and more people being told to give 0.4ml twice daily (for a kilo of guinea), and that's the level my vet was giving recently. Although aiming a little low might be no bad thing given the state of her poo at this time.

I really do believe Septrin is far better in most UTI cases, and the dose for that seems to have been revised recently, with up to 0.6ml twice daily per kilo bodyweight being prescribed (certainly my vet goes that high).

Injected Baytril doesn't really hit the guts as it doesn't pass through them as oral does, so in those terms a probiotic wouldn't necessarily be required. However, it doesn't hurt to give it when it's not needed, and as her poo isn't right I'd certainly give some regardless of medication. And most certainly be giving it once the oral course starts (between one and two hours *after* giving the antibiotic of course!).

I think this evening should be about monitoring, maybe syringe feeding if she doesn't eat for herself tonight, definitely getting some fluids in her, and keeping your fingers crossed. A weigh tonight compared to tomorrow morning will give a much clearer picture of what, if anything, she's doing for herself when your back's turned. That way you can have a far better idea of where things are at in terms of syringe feeding.

So long as the night goes OK you might want to look at swapping to Septrin (if you're going down the UTI diagnsosi being as accurate, which is a judgement call between you and your vet of course) and upping the Metacam (provided she is bigger than 500 grammes, which I suspect she is!). Hopefully your vet is open to discussion, I know I've had the odd run in with certain ones when you question their "expertise". To which at least once I found myself questioning why they needed to check through Google during the consultation!
 
So sorry to hear bout your girl. As you know Mimsi is going through something similar. He, however has not lost his appetite at any stage so I can understand how worried you must be. If it is a UTI then she is maybe just feeling a bit rough and thats why she is not eating. I would try the critical care feed mixed with diluted cranberry juice which i done for Mimsi. He loved it but I had trouble getting him to take the cranberry on his own. Apparently bananas are a good pick me up food so you might want to try tempting her with this if you have any. She is in the best of hands with your care and I'm sure she will be ok.
 
My previous vet (who was very good with guinea pigs) prescribed 0.4 ml as a maximum dose of metacam. He said that some higher doses had been released relatively recently for guinea pigs and rabbits.
 
furryfriends said:
Sorry for seeming a bit abrupt in my questions, don't mean to be, but have rice cooking and so dashing in here, quickly posting, and dashing back to the kitchen.

0.2 baytril? Is that just once a day? Mine haven't had baytril for ages so a bit out of touch with dosage, but isn't that a bit low? Does anyone know? I would have thought that would be fine if it was twice a day.
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Don't worry about being abrupt! I didn't notice any "abruptness" to be honest. Yep, 0.2ml, once a day. I did think it was a little low considering what my fatty boar has had, but he is much bigger so maybe that explains it. I think the vet told me 0.5ml...but the nurse wrote 0.2 on the bottle and now I'm beginning to doubt myself. I shall ring the vet first thing and just check with him as to doseage.

Stinklepig said:
0.2ml once a day of Baytril is very low. Even at twice a day it's quite low. But then, what's her weight? The stat Baytril dose is 0.2ml per kilo twice a day, but that's the basic lelve, most vets will give up to twice that. I'm seeing more and more people being told to give 0.4ml twice daily (for a kilo of guinea), and that's the level my vet was giving recently. Although aiming a little low might be no bad thing given the state of her poo at this time.

I really do believe Septrin is far better in most UTI cases, and the dose for that seems to have been revised recently, with up to 0.6ml twice daily per kilo bodyweight being prescribed (certainly my vet goes that high).

I think this evening should be about monitoring, maybe syringe feeding if she doesn't eat for herself tonight, definitely getting some fluids in her, and keeping your fingers crossed. A weigh tonight compared to tomorrow morning will give a much clearer picture of what, if anything, she's doing for herself when your back's turned. That way you can have a far better idea of where things are at in terms of syringe feeding.

So long as the night goes OK you might want to look at swapping to Septrin (if you're going down the UTI diagnsosi being as accurate, which is a judgement call between you and your vet of course) and upping the Metacam (provided she is bigger than 500 grammes, which I suspect she is!). Hopefully your vet is open to discussion, I know I've had the odd run in with certain ones when you question their "expertise". To which at least once I found myself questioning why they needed to check through Google during the consultation!
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My vets are fab and always let me question - I'm generally full of questions anyway, (unless it's like today when I'm almost frozen with speechless worry, blood always makes me panic) My sow is a big ol' girl, 1.150 (approx) kg, but she is a peru (with long, long hair) so i suspect part of that may be her hair. :)) I haven't weighed her tonight as I'm trying to keep her quiet and relaxed. I'll maybe do so in an hour or so, once she has got over the "ordeal" of being offered cranberry juice. (She's a real drama pig!)

I've just syringed some carnberry juice with some probiotic down her there, which she seemed to take quite well. She also produced two lovely, normal poos on me while I did so, and that was very reassuring. Then popped her back in the cage and there was produced another sloppy one. She is however eating some veggies with some coaxing, the hardest job being keeping her husband and daughter away from her and veggies! She is mostly picking so they will just gobble away and steal from her.

Farquhar said:
I would try the critical care feed mixed with diluted cranberry juice which i done for Mimsi. He loved it but I had trouble getting him to take the cranberry on his own. Apparently bananas are a good pick me up food so you might want to try tempting her with this if you have any. She is in the best of hands with your care and I'm sure she will be ok.
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I shall defo. try just giving her some critical care later anyway, and with the cranberry that sounds like a good idea. Thanks for the tip! I shall maybe try her with banannas...been a while since I dished out bananas and I forget who likes them and who doesn't!

Must say I am feeling better now that she has eaten a little and poo-ed on me. I think she was sleeping off the trial at the vets (She screamed and screamed and tried to run away when he was injecting her) and has now perked up now that things are kicking in. There has also been no more wee with blood in it (currently on newspaper and light coloured towels) that i can see, but it is hard to tell what wee belongs to who when there are three in the cage.

I've also popped some diluted cranberry juice in her waterbottle, with a tiny pinch of probiotic. I'm assuming it will have no illeffects on her aforementioned cagemates?

Thanks everyone for your advice, it's really been helping. :)
 
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The most effective drug for UTI is Paediatric Suspension Septrin. Dose:0.5ml twice daily for 10-14 days.
Don't bother "diluting" cranberry juice. Dilution doesn't work that way. Whether or not you give, for example, 5ml of juice in 5ml of water or 5ml of juice by itself, the pig is still getting 5ml of juice. I put a pig onto cj yesterday and it promptly drank 15ml, you cannot overdose them, the more the better.
 
Sorry to hear about your piggie susie and I hope she recovers soon :)

I'd follow the advice and medication from your vets and not the individuals who try and dismiss what vets say or give you, At the end of the day no one on here that I know of is a qualified vet :x
 
alcesterpigs said:
The most effective drug for UTI is Paediatric Suspension Septrin. Dose:0.5ml twice daily for 10-14 days.
Don't bother "diluting" cranberry juice. Dilution doesn't work that way. Whether or not you give, for example, 5ml of juice in 5ml of water or 5ml of juice by itself, the pig is still getting 5ml of juice. I put a pig onto cj yesterday and it promptly drank 15ml, you cannot overdose them, the more the better.
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Thanks for reiterating what other people have already said. However, since I am not a vet or a pharmacist I shall be asking my vet about septrin first.

I;m not worrying about "overdosing" my guinea pig on cranberry juice, what i am mostly worried about is overdosing her system with too much of a new thing. 5ml of juice does not equal 5ml that is two parts water and one part cranberry juice. You are thinking about fluids. Yes, 5ml of juice is the equivalent of 5ml of juice with 5ml of water if the pig is given 10ml of the solution. This is not what is happening. My pig is not promptly drinking 15ml of cranberry juice, diluted or otherwise. You might want to consider that not all of us have ooooodles of the experince you so clearly have, and that sometimes we struggle to syringe food/water down piggies and we have to do it little and often. (And, perhaps, like people, some pigs do not like the taste of cranberries)

I haven't found any posts of yours suggesting who you are and what makes you the shiny new authority on all medical things on the board, but I don't really like your "tone" on the board. I asked for advice, not commands.

Emily is still relucant to eat and drink, and this morning it appeared that some of her wee was browny/black. My mum, who is a medical doctor(not that this makes her an authority) said that this is common of blood that has been sitting there for a while (my first thought was it was fecal matter) so I'm hoping she weed out a little stone or something that backed her up for a little. So I'm keeping an eye on that and haven't see anymore.

I'm going to see how she is at evening surgery at the vets - maybe it's just taking a while for the baytril to set in. The vet (who I called earlier) did say that when i took her in she had soft poos (which is true) so it's unlikely the baytril is making her stomach worse.
 
susie q you are so obviously upset about your pig that your comments, which may upset some people, I shall overlook. May I suggest you Google for UTI and Septrin in guinea pigs?
Ps
At least I don't succumb to healing wheeks and vibes. That comment is a JOKE!
 
I didn't want to get involved in this, especially since it has gone off topic, but I do want to say this in reference to your "PS" above.

Medical advice is not everything, despite this being the medical board. Offering friendly support, getting to know others and letting them get to know you, gets you a long way on a forum. It earns you trust and respect.
Not everyone who posts in medical is after purely medical advice - these members need personal and moral support too. There are people involved with these pigs, and while the primary concern is the animal, the owner also needs some help and to know that there is a friendly place to come to where people understand the difficulties they have, as well as what the animal is going through. Comments like the one you included above helps significantly.

When someone posts here, yes they want the medical knowledge, but they also want to know that people understand the persons situation and how stressful it is. It takes time to get the confidence and when you are a relatively new owner, or an owner with no experience, to be told just medical advice is not all that welcoming and supportive.

In any case, there can be some weight to the 'healing vibes'. It is not a joke.
 
alcesterpigs said:
susie q you are so obviously upset about your pig that your comments, which may upset some people, I shall overlook. May I suggest you Google for UTI and Septrin in guinea pigs?
Ps
At least I don't succumb to healing wheeks and vibes. That comment is a JOKE!
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I would agree that Septrin is generally a better antibiotic for UTI's. However, I think it is important that this is discussed with the vet too. It's always useful to obtain information and find out other people's experiences, that can then be shared with the vet. Many vets are very open to suggestions. My vet has had many calls from other vets enquiring about the antibiotics he uses and in that way information can be shared.

I think your comment re 'healing wheeks and vibes' is very rude. Sometimes people just want to let someone know they are thinking of them, even if they can't offer any medical information.
 
I tend to keep away from "emotional chat" mainly because I have sympathy with those who run the forum and are having to read page after page of emotions, whilst endeavouring to read comments that are, hopefully helpful in a factual sense. Would it perhaps be better if another thread were started purely for emotional support?
 
Yes I do know what it is like to have sick gps. I had 17 die last year and have lost 5 so far this year, I have gained 5 and my current total is 25. You say you do not like the "tone" of some of my comments. May I say that I find some responses make me cringe. I shall now put on a tin helmet!
 
This thread has gone way off topic and is getting very annoying.

Lets put the handbags away now please.

Thanks for your concerns for us Mods but believe me after a long hard day at work the emotional chat and caring words of comfort make easy reading its the constant back biting thats hard work.


Thanks

Lindsay
 
The one decent vet that I had preferred Septrin for UTI's. I was given a vets prescription for a paediatric suspension which I got from the local chemist. ( I got some funny looks when they called out the name when it was ready :red:red)
 
I have spoken to Susie on the phone this evening and Emily is not doing very well at all it seems - fingers crossed she pulls through. Susie will no doubt let us know further when she can.

Lots of love and support your way Suze...............

Helen.
x
 
So sorry suzie to hearthat little them is so poorly. I am thinking of you and send healing vibes from my little gang
 
After hearing the not good news, I'm becomming increasingly concerned. Ignoring the arguments for a moment, I wonder if the diagnosis was correct? I was thinking this earlier, but wasn't feeling too with it and when trying to reply my mind kept wandering to the off topic "debate" :(

The blood sounds very unusual for a UTI. A discernable discharge of blood rather than streaks or staining doesn't sound very bladder/ urethra to me. Especially not when the more recent show of blood was "old", discoloured clotting.

I might have suspected kidney issues if the blood was in small amounts dotted through the urine, but I'm more and more concerned that it's uteris related. There's a name for the most likely cause if it is from there, but not being female I'm damned if I can remember it! It's quite common in piggies that have given birth I believe, as well as other mammals, and can occurr in a non pregnant girl too. It can also be very severe and lethal if not treated, and the best treatment in this case would be a full hysterectomy if I recall. If this is the problem then Baytril is actually no bad thing, but highly unlikely to cure it (though certainly not going to hurt to try).

The reason I'm saying this is hopefully someone will read my post and be able to pick up where my limited knowledge leaves off. I know one of my girls bled very heavily after giving birth last year (not helped by an idiot vet when there were complications), and after a while the blood clotting around her parts were more dark/ almost black, and mixed with other discharge. I had my suspicions when I read this thread the first time, but hoped the vet was knowledgeable enough to have discounted this through skilled examination.

At this point (again, based on a very shakey memory and no personal experience) the piggie may well be suffering from blood poisoning as well as a lot ofpain, which would explain the lack of movement and interest in the world. Another area I'm afraid I can't help with in regards of treatment though, sorry :(

It's not impossible she can pull through this, but the reality is it's looking less likely than it did originally. Of course, if she's not eaten or drunk anything then that will massively be complicating whatever the underlying condition is doing to her, so all I could advise from a home care point of view is to make her warm and comfortable, do everything possible to get food and fluids into her, and if at all possible get her back to the vets asap to triple check what is the root problem.
 
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